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Northern Dec 2019 Timetable Bid

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John C

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With the Huddersfield-Bradford-Leeds service being curtailed to Huddersfield-Bradford I hope Low Moor gains a call from another direct Leeds service, I don’t think a change at Bradford would go down well as I would estimate 90% of passengers boarding the current Leeds services all travel through to Leeds.
 
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agbrs_Jack

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There are still odd trains during the day on the Stoke line which don't call at Stockport. I asked a driver and he didn't know why.

Isn't it due to clashes with freight paths?

Kite is correct, there is a freight path at those times. I presume those won't change in December.
From Congleton it makes you change at Macclesfield, I'm sure you could also change at Cheadle / Heaton Chapel without any issues with ticket validity.
On Saturdays one of them is Bramhall - Heaton Chapel non stop. (1385 Stoke - Manchester Piccadilly)



From Northern: 'on those hours there is an extra freight path at Stockport that needs to cross from the Altrincham line to the Denton line. There is no capacity to accommodate this without some alteration to standard hourly passenger services.'
 
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Mathew S

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Using North Western for Wigan terminators has the benefit of not needing a shunt move, blocking the line and potentially needing more units.

However Northern recently proposed self dispatch from North Western due to the fees Virgin are charging only to regularly dispatch trains late due to short staffing and prioritising their own trains. This has been knocked back by Network Rail for now so I can understand they favour using Wallgate and it's better from a revenue collection point of view due to barriers.
There have been problems with the junction south of Wigan NW where trains access the Hindley lines, with failures on several occasions this year meaning Southport trains terminating at Wigan NW, and Wigan NW trains having to run into Wallgate. Annoying though yet another recast of the timetable is (and, in my view, it's the wrong decision anyway) it does at least remove that point of failure by limiting running into NW from Ince.

What I genuinely don't understand is why Southport passengers want the service they're now going to be getting. The Alderley - Wigan trains are rammed, even off-peak services can be hideously uncomfortable. And the tortuous plod of the Stalybridge services stopping at Kersley, Farnworth, and Moses Gate is soul destroying on the way home from a long day at the office. By contrast, most of the Blackburn and Leeds services are much, much more lightly loaded west of Manchester, even though they're running through to Southport. All this is going to get them is more overcrowding, and less chance of a seat, while people from Wigan use the, now even more lightly loaded, fast services via Atherton.
 

scrapy

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There have been problems with the junction south of Wigan NW where trains access the Hindley lines, with failures on several occasions this year meaning Southport trains terminating at Wigan NW, and Wigan NW trains having to run into Wallgate. Annoying though yet another recast of the timetable is (and, in my view, it's the wrong decision anyway) it does at least remove that point of failure by limiting running into NW from Ince.

What I genuinely don't understand is why Southport passengers want the service they're now going to be getting. The Alderley - Wigan trains are rammed, even off-peak services can be hideously uncomfortable. And the tortuous plod of the Stalybridge services stopping at Kersley, Farnworth, and Moses Gate is soul destroying on the way home from a long day at the office. By contrast, most of the Blackburn and Leeds services are much, much more lightly loaded west of Manchester, even though they're running through to Southport. All this is going to get them is more overcrowding, and less chance of a seat, while people from Wigan use the, now even more lightly loaded, fast services via Atherton.
To be honest I don't think it's something the majority of Southport passengers want. There is however a vocal rail users group who want it and won't give up until they get it. I watched them conduct a passenger survey at Southport and they were quite vigorously badgering people to write on it that they should have direct serviced to Piccadilly and the Airport and standing over people as they completed it. It wouldn't surprise me if any surveys that didn't agree with their views were binned.
 

Geeves

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You have to wonder if these people demanding trains to Piccadilly do travel regularly or in rush hour because as has been said its not going to work out well for them. The Alderley Edge trains have not been the most reliable, what with having to come through virtually every single one of Manchester's most congested junctions. I said it before but I can see lots of these trains being turned short at Wigan Wallgate and passengers wanting intermediate stations beyond Wigan Wallgate suffering so Doris gets her once a year trip direct to Piccadlly without changing.
 

Andyh82

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With the Huddersfield-Bradford-Leeds service being curtailed to Huddersfield-Bradford I hope Low Moor gains a call from another direct Leeds service, I don’t think a change at Bradford would go down well as I would estimate 90% of passengers boarding the current Leeds services all travel through to Leeds.
As well as that, I’m also wondering if Brighouse will gain or retain some later calls from Leeds, as the Via Dewsbury service finishes earlier in the evening.

In general terms, I predict the Huddersfield to Bradford service will be dead, they could run it with a single 153 if they were keeping them, with it not serving Leeds, and the buses being either just as quick and/or up to 6 times more frequent across all the different legs.
 

Bantamzen

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As well as that, I’m also wondering if Brighouse will gain or retain some later calls from Leeds, as the Via Dewsbury service finishes earlier in the evening.

In general terms, I predict the Huddersfield to Bradford service will be dead, they could run it with a single 153 if they were keeping them, with it not serving Leeds, and the buses being either just as quick and/or up to 6 times more frequent across all the different legs.

It's true that the bus capacity & frequency is much greater, but even if the 153s were being kept it is highly unlikely that the units used on this route would be used in isolation. They would possibly interwork with the Huddersfield - Wakefield / Castleford at the very least.
 

yorksrob

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There have been problems with the junction south of Wigan NW where trains access the Hindley lines, with failures on several occasions this year meaning Southport trains terminating at Wigan NW, and Wigan NW trains having to run into Wallgate. Annoying though yet another recast of the timetable is (and, in my view, it's the wrong decision anyway) it does at least remove that point of failure by limiting running into NW from Ince.

What I genuinely don't understand is why Southport passengers want the service they're now going to be getting. The Alderley - Wigan trains are rammed, even off-peak services can be hideously uncomfortable. And the tortuous plod of the Stalybridge services stopping at Kersley, Farnworth, and Moses Gate is soul destroying on the way home from a long day at the office. By contrast, most of the Blackburn and Leeds services are much, much more lightly loaded west of Manchester, even though they're running through to Southport. All this is going to get them is more overcrowding, and less chance of a seat, while people from Wigan use the, now even more lightly loaded, fast services via Atherton.

To be honest I don't think it's something the majority of Southport passengers want. There is however a vocal rail users group who want it and won't give up until they get it. I watched them conduct a passenger survey at Southport and they were quite vigorously badgering people to write on it that they should have direct serviced to Piccadilly and the Airport and standing over people as they completed it. It wouldn't surprise me if any surveys that didn't agree with their views were binned.

I use the Atherton line quite regularly, and the Southport - Alderley provides a very useful link to Oxford Road, particularly as Windsor link services have become more sparse generally lately.

On a note closer to home, have Northern re-submitted their request for a Saturday night Hallam service at 23:00 ?
 

scrapy

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I use the Atherton line quite regularly, and the Southport - Alderley provides a very useful link to Oxford Road, particularly as Windsor link services have become more sparse generally lately.

On a note closer to home, have Northern re-submitted their request for a Saturday night Hallam service at 23:00 ?
The Southport to Alderley doesn't go down the Atherton line. Under the new proposals there would still be as many trains over the Windsor Link though.
 

darloscott

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It's true that the bus capacity & frequency is much greater, but even if the 153s were being kept it is highly unlikely that the units used on this route would be used in isolation. They would possibly interwork with the Huddersfield - Wakefield / Castleford at the very least.
Both of which are 153s anyway
 

Islandexpress

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A Bradford > Sheffield service linking both Halifax & Huddersfield would be nice. Given the populations along the line, this should already be a service but I’d guess the travel time would be 2hrs+ making it less than ideal for commuters, students etc.
 

yorksrob

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The Southport to Alderley doesn't go down the Atherton line. Under the new proposals there would still be as many trains over the Windsor Link though.

I know it doesn't. But it does offer a very handy quick connection at Salford Crescent.
 

Bantamzen

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A Bradford > Sheffield service linking both Halifax & Huddersfield would be nice. Given the populations along the line, this should already be a service but I’d guess the travel time would be 2hrs+ making it less than ideal for commuters, students etc.

It would be quite slow though, especially compared to the planned Nottingham service starting from Bradford.
 

thealexweb

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So for Bolton it's looking like the following from December:

Southport - Stalybridge 769
Southport - Alderley Edge 769
Clitheroe - Rochdale 15X
Blackburn - Rochdale 15X
Blackpool North - Hazel Grove 319
Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 331
Preston - Manchester Victoria 319

And from TPE:
Scotland - Manchester Airport 397
 

si404

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I know it doesn't. But it does offer a very handy quick connection at Salford Crescent.
And the Wigan, Preston and Blackpool services to Piccadilly and places south that currently run all day don't offer such a change?

The gripe people in this thread are having with the Southport-Alderley Edge proposal is
1) pairing unelectrified with electrified routes
2) undoing some of the simplification that occurred in recent timetable changes

As you have pointed out, changing at Salford Crescent isn't that hard, and so Southport to Oxford Road is not difficult under the current timetable, making the proposed change a bit silly.
 

yorksrob

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And the Wigan, Preston and Blackpool services to Piccadilly and places south that currently run all day don't offer such a change?

The gripe people in this thread are having with the Southport-Alderley Edge proposal is
1) pairing unelectrified with electrified routes
2) undoing some of the simplification that occurred in recent timetable changes

As you have pointed out, changing at Salford Crescent isn't that hard, and so Southport to Oxford Road is not difficult under the current timetable, making the proposed change a bit silly.

It's not physically changing at Salford Crescent that's the issue. It's that in the past, it's always seemed to involve waiting around for half an hour. This and last year, there seems to be a particularly well timed train within about five minutes of the Atherton one which I think is the Southport-Alderley Edge (it certainly ends up at Alderley Edge).

I'd still be interested to know whether Northern have requested the 23:00 Hallam stopper on Saturday again.
 

si404

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I think is the Southport-Alderley Edge (it certainly ends up at Alderley Edge).
outside the peak, Southport trains all go to Victoria via Atherton - hence the hoo hah we've been talking about in this thread that will see last year's changes (that have worked so well for you) somewhat revert because Southport people refuse to change in Salford!
 

yorksrob

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outside the peak, Southport trains all go to Victoria via Atherton - hence the hoo hah we've been talking about in this thread that will see last year's changes (that have worked so well for you) somewhat revert because Southport people refuse to change in Salford!

To be fair, if I had a train from the Atherton line direct to Oxford Road, that would probably be even better for me, but that only seemed to happen in the past on diversions.
 

Greybeard33

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So for Bolton it's looking like the following from December:

Southport - Stalybridge 769
Southport - Alderley Edge 769
Clitheroe - Rochdale 15X
Blackburn - Rochdale 15X
Blackpool North - Hazel Grove 319
Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 331
Preston - Manchester Victoria 319

And from TPE:
Scotland - Manchester Airport 397
Even if all eight 769s are in service by December, that is not enough to work all the Southport to Stalybridge and Southport to Alderley Edge diagrams (9 is my estimate). Some will have to be worked by 15x.
 

Mathew S

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Even if all eight 769s are in service by December, that is not enough to work all the Southport to Stalybridge and Southport to Alderley Edge diagrams (9 is my estimate). Some will have to be worked by 15x.
Correct. Just enough units were ordered to work the Stalybridge / Alderley diagrams from Wigan NW. Extending the diagrams to Southport will mean they will be at least three units short of being able to go over to full 769 operations. That said, I suppose there's no real reason why Northern couldn't just obtain 3 more 769s. It's not as through there's a shortage of 319s that could be converted.
 

Greybeard33

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That said, I suppose there's no real reason why Northern couldn't just obtain 3 more 769s. It's not as through there's a shortage of 319s that could be converted.
Well, Northern has not yet even obtained any of the original eight 769s so far (two were delivered but then returned to Wabtec). AFAIK Northern has given no commitment as to when, or even if, they will enter service, in marked contrast to the rush to get the new and cascaded stock into traffic.

There is no public domain information about the leasing cost of 769s compared with 15x's. As a mini fleet, I imagine the maintenance and crew training costs will be relatively higher than for the other units in Northern's inventory.
 

317 forever

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So for Bolton it's looking like the following from December:

Southport - Stalybridge 769
Southport - Alderley Edge 769
Clitheroe - Rochdale 15X
Blackburn - Rochdale 15X
Blackpool North - Hazel Grove 319
Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 331
Preston - Manchester Victoria 319

And from TPE:
Scotland - Manchester Airport 397

This would represent quite a bit of progress re 331, 397 & 769s in just 5 months.
 

Killingworth

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Apparently Northern timetables are ready to load, with leaks of information creeping out, like an additional early morning train from Whitby.

I've heard it suggested that the Hope Valley line may see one or two of the current skips being removed. With a 2 hour 33 minute evening gap to Dore from Sheffield in an evening, and two more of 2 hours in the day, that's three that need filling. (In the evenings 2 tph stop at Dore from Manchester, one Northern, the other TPE.) There are other illogical gaps for stations in the Hope Valley - although Network Rail have pathing pressures to accommodate freight services.
 

Kingspanner

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I thought it was always the plan that the Middlesbrough-Carlisle via Newcastle Connect service would be routed via the Stillington branch?

That would make sense.
I thought it was always the plan that the Middlesbrough-Carlisle via Newcastle Connect service would be routed via the Stillington branch?

That would make sense.
This is incredible. I've often wished for Middlesbrough-Newcastle vis Stillington. This would be a connectivity gamechanger for Teesside especially Stockton. 75 mph paths on the ECML to and from Ferryhill will be tricky, I agree.
 

TBY-Paul

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This is incredible. I've often wished for Middlesbrough-Newcastle vis Stillington. This would be a connectivity gamechanger for Teesside especially Stockton. 75 mph paths on the ECML to and from Ferryhill will be tricky, I agree.
The "Northern Connect" service is due to be a Class 158, which has a top speed of 90 MPH, which should be less of a issue. As you say, it would be a gamechanger if it goes ahead.
 

MetroCar4058

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I've heard from a reliable source that Network Rail rejected the access request and this will not go ahead. I do hope this is wrong however.
 

Tim33160

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Seems the lack of certainty of having enough drivers working on a Sunday has knocked out the December 2019 proposals for hourly Sunday services on Mid Cheshire Line. Been a franchise requirement for December 2017.
Two trains an hour on weekdays is still an "aspiration" as well .

Mike Amesbury MP blasts further delay to two trains an hour for Northwich passengers https://www.northwichguardian.co.uk...s-delay-two-trains-hour-northwich-passengers/
 

rg177

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One fairly random change in the data I've seen is this:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y56865/2020/01/15/advanced

The Hexham to Danby train will now only go as far as Castleton Moor, but will call additionally at Kildale.

I do recall some saying that Castleton was a substantially more useful terminating point, considering that Danby station isn't all that close to the village?

Early morning service is also in the system as the 0453 Middlesbrough to Whitby and 0627 return.
 
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