TfW Mapping Errors

Tomos y Tanc · 7 Jul 2019

[QUOTE="PR1Berske, post: 4095128, member: 705] I'd question why Liverpool, Manchester etc. are given translated names when the Welsh versions are not included anywhere on the stations themselves![/QUOTE]

There's a simple reason for that. The stations themselves are in England where legisaltion regarding language equality doesn't apply whereas the maps are displayed in Wales where it's a legal requirement. I'm not saying that's a good or a bad thing - but that's the reason. Personally, I think stations like Hereford and Shrewsbury are missing a trick by not playing more on their 'marcher' identities and displaying their Welsh names.

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anamyd · 7 Jul 2019

Phil from Mon said:
Presumably for Welsh speakers who use these names in their everyday speech

Exactly! The Welsh names of English places are used on the Welsh-language portions of station announcements as well, e.g. on an announcement at Cardiff Central for a Portsmouth Harbour service, Caerfaddon (Bath) and Caersallog (Salisbury) are announced as calling points.

Meole · 7 Jul 2019

anamyd said:
Exactly! The Welsh names of English places are used on the Welsh-language portions of station announcements as well, e.g. on an announcement at Cardiff Central for a Portsmouth Harbour service, Caerfaddon (Bath) and Caersallog (Salisbury) are announced as calling points.

More importantly destinations such as Paddington and Birmingham International should display bilingual signage throughout as they are key entry/departure points for Wales.

kieron · 7 Jul 2019

adrock1976 said:
Is the map actually intended to be a near geographically accurate map, or a schematic diagram similar to London Underground?

Definitely schematic. There are lots of regularly spaced stations, and the way the lines bend don't seem to owe all that much to geography.

The accessibility map shows the Heart of Wales line a bit more clearly. It links together the dots for Craven Arms and Church Stretton, and it shows the line going to Llanelli. It doesn't show the train reversing, but it's another schematic diagram, so it doesn't have to.

One inconsistency I have noticed is that, most of the time, text which is translated is given in red (Welsh) and black (English). The text on the line by Stafford doesn't do this, however, with one map using grey for both languages, and the other purple.

DelW · 17 Jul 2019

Prompted by this thread, I was tempted to see whether I could do better. Attached is my effort, just for the possible interest of anyone who didn't like the official version

A few disclaimers:

there's always a tension between geography, graphical simplicity, and legibility, so my version isn't perfect either
the basic layout principles are that the Marches line is a vertical straight, and the Manchester - Holyhead, B'ham - Dovey Jn, and Severn Tunnel - Swansea, lines are horizontal straights
I know the Ffestiniog doesn't run northwest - southeast, and that the valley lines don't reach almost to mid-Wales, but there are lots of station names to fit in
I haven't put in Welsh language names, because I'm more interested in the graphics than in lots of typing,and it's bad enough proof-reading the names that are in there already
in most cases the Welsh names could be added in the gaps, but some editing would be necessary around Ebbw Vale at least
the selection of lines and stations shown follows the TfW version - though I thought it should probably include the Swansea district line, as I think a few passenger services work over that. It could probably be added with a bit of editing to move Bynea and Llangennech westwards
line colouring is arbitrarily red = main, green = secondary main, orange = branch

Please feel free to point out mistakes, there are sure to be some :oops:

Llanigraham · 17 Jul 2019

Borth and Bow Street are the wrong way around, and the latter doesn't actually exist at the moment.
Otherwise excellent.

krus_aragon · 17 Jul 2019

DelW said:
Prompted by this thread, I was tempted to see whether I could do better. Attached is my effort, just for the possible interest of anyone who didn't like the official version

That's a very interesting approach. Keeping all the mainlines so arrow-straight isn't to my personal taste, but you've done a good job of taking a design philosophy and following it through.

You have a more prominent typeface for major stations. Might it be worth giving them a slightly larger dot as well?

You've taken care to show how lines meet at junctions, except for Llandudno Junction. The current draft makes it look like there aren't any through services from the Llandudno branch; it's drawn just like Shotton is.

I'd be tempted to paint a few more lines as "main" lines: add in the Marches (Chester and Manchester to Newport) and Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth. They'd then form a cohesive "main" network. While Crewe-Stafford-Birmingham is a main line, TfW hardly operate that route, so I don't think it should be coloured so prominently.

For the rest of the lines, I'd choose one colour for the Valley Lines (including the Vale of Glamorgan), and a third colour for every other line.

DelW · 17 Jul 2019

Thanks for your thoughts, I think you're right that a more prominent dot for bigger stations would be a good idea. I disliked the big circles that the TfW map has, but there's probably a happy medium.

Junctions are an interesting one. I started off with all lines simply intersecting at the middle of the appropriate dot, as per TfW ... then I realised just how badly that represents Cardiff, so I redrew that ... then redrew Bridgend, Swansea and Carmarthen ... then Shrewsbury and Chester. But I've stopped short of redrawing Llandudno, Crewe and Manchester. Llandudno is more a core TfW location than Crewe and Manchester are, though, so maybe it does warrant some more attention.

My colour assignments are just my arbitrary choices. I originally had just "main" and "branch", so the Marches and the Cambrian were counted as main lines, but then lines like the HoWL don't really fit either category, so I introduced "secondary main" for that. Having done that, I put the Marches and Cambrian into the same category, but I agree the service level is very different. Maybe I should colour-code by number of services per day, though that would take more research of course (and promote some of the frequent valley lines routes).

I shall carry on playing with it as work-load permits! (I'm using my work AutoCad to draw it).

[Edit] - just spotted that Bow Street and Borth are in the wrong order, corrected in the next version.

krus_aragon · 17 Jul 2019

DelW said:
But I've stopped short of redrawing Llandudno, Crewe and Manchester. Llandudno is more a core TfW location than Crewe and Manchester are, though, so maybe it does warrant some more attention.

A key difference between Llandudno Jn and the other two is that you're omitting some irrelevant lines at Crewe and Manchester, so the map is naturally an abstraction there. Maybe that'll help you justify it to yourself.

DelW said:
Maybe I should colour-code by number of services per day, though that would take more research of course (and promote some of the frequent valley lines routes).

If you specifically tie it to service frequency, then that ties your hands artistically a bit. (And if this poster were used by TfW, would they have to replace it every timetable change?)

I find that when making graphical designs like these, it's important to keep in mind what information you're trying to convey. Is the map meant to convey service frequency on each line, or show how the lines are connected to each other?

It can be useful to have a geographic point of reference to help people when looking at a non-geographic map, to work out where they need to look. A famous example is the presence of the river Thames on the Tube Map. Some of ATW's historical maps included an outline of the coastline on Wales (with varying degrees of success) for the same purpose. Perhaps giving the main lines (which roughly follow the reverse-C shape of Wales) a prominent colour could do that job for you.

DelW · 17 Jul 2019

krus_aragon said:
A key difference between Llandudno Jn and the other two is that you're omitting some irrelevant lines at Crewe and Manchester, so the map is naturally an abstraction there. Maybe that'll help you justify it to yourself.

That's convincing enough for me ... especially as it would be a huge job to show everything around Manchester, Crewe, and Birmingham!

Llandudno Junction now redrawn as attached.

krus_aragon said:
It can be useful to have a geographic point of reference to help people when looking at a non-geographic map, to work out where they need to look. A famous example is the presence of the river Thames on the Tube Map. Some of ATW's historical maps included an outline of the coastline on Wales (with varying degrees of success) for the same purpose. Perhaps giving the main lines (which roughly follow the reverse-C shape of Wales) a prominent colour could do that job for you.

Now I'm wanting to add the coast in too :'(

krus_aragon · 17 Jul 2019

DelW said:
Now I'm wanting to add the coast in too

Well, if you want to see what techniques have been used in the past (for good or ill), there's a whole host of examples at http://projectmapping.co.uk/Reviews/atw_wales_train_rail_maps.html

DelW · 17 Jul 2019

Wow, there's some pretty dire stuff on there ... I know I'm biased, but I don't think it's setting the bar high if I say I think I've improved on those!

pdeaves · 17 Jul 2019

DelW said:
the selection of lines and stations shown follows the TfW version - though I thought it should probably include the Swansea district line

The final look depends on exactly what you want to convey and to whom. My preference (and it is just my preference) is that Swansea and Carmarthen avoiding lines aren't shown (and they could be drawn as 'through' stations, too). In my view, trains not calling at these places need not be shown any differently to those not calling at, say, Skewen. The diagram does not show calling patterns, it 'only' shows where is connected to where and in what order. For similar reasons, the junction at Llanelli could be shown the other way round, the other side of Llanelli (unless there are Carmarthen-Central Wales services; I don't think there are). There's plenty of space to stretch all places west of Llanelli to fit it.

On the other hand, if you think the user needs to know 'the train changes direction', my view doesn't count for much!

anamyd · 17 Jul 2019

DelW said:
Prompted by this thread, I was tempted to see whether I could do better. Attached is my effort, just for the possible interest of anyone who didn't like the official version

A few disclaimers:

there's always a tension between geography, graphical simplicity, and legibility, so my version isn't perfect either

the basic layout principles are that the Marches line is a vertical straight, and the Manchester - Holyhead, B'ham - Dovey Jn, and Severn Tunnel - Swansea, lines are horizontal straights

I know the Ffestiniog doesn't run northwest - southeast, and that the valley lines don't reach almost to mid-Wales, but there are lots of station names to fit in

I haven't put in Welsh language names, because I'm more interested in the graphics than in lots of typing,and it's bad enough proof-reading the names that are in there already

in most cases the Welsh names could be added in the gaps, but some editing would be necessary around Ebbw Vale at least

the selection of lines and stations shown follows the TfW version - though I thought it should probably include the Swansea district line, as I think a few passenger services work over that. It could probably be added with a bit of editing to move Bynea and Llangennech westwards

line colouring is arbitrarily red = main, green = secondary main, orange = branch

Please feel free to point out mistakes, there are sure to be some

Looks fine to me, except (in addition to anything else mentioned) for omission of text symbols in Newton-le-Willows and Maesteg (Ewenny Rd)

DelW · 17 Jul 2019

pdeaves said:
The final look depends on exactly what you want to convey and to whom. My preference (and it is just my preference) is that Swansea and Carmarthen avoiding lines aren't shown (and they could be drawn as 'through' stations, too). In my view, trains not calling at these places need not be shown any differently to those not calling at, say, Skewen. The diagram does not show calling patterns, it 'only' shows where is connected to where and in what order. For similar reasons, the junction at Llanelli could be shown the other way round, the other side of Llanelli (unless there are Carmarthen-Central Wales services; I don't think there are). There's plenty of space to stretch all places west of Llanelli to fit it.

On the other hand, if you think the user needs to know 'the train changes direction', my view doesn't count for much!

I'm really only doing it for my own interest. But when I'm travelling by train, I almost always have a definite preference for which side I sit, and whether facing or back, so for me, reversals are important!

I think one early morning train up the Heart of Wales starts from Carmarthen, but even if not, showing the junction the true way round is definitely my preference.

anamyd said:
Looks fine to me, except omission of text symbols in Newton-le-Willows and Maesteg (Ewenny Rd)

Oops, yes, amended in the next version.

Not sure when (or even if) the next version will get posted, but comments so far have been incorporated (where I agreed with them), so thanks to those who made them :smile:

Parallel · 17 Jul 2019

The map looks good, however Bow St is between Aberystwyth and Borth, not Borth and Dovey Junction

vlad · 17 Jul 2019

That map suggests to me that there's one station at Porthmadog served by TfW and FR - it might be an idea to skew it a bit given the stations are over half a mile apart.

anamyd · 17 Jul 2019

Parallel said:
The map looks good, however Bow St is between Aberystwyth and Borth, not Borth and Dovey Junction

indeed it is!

DelW · 18 Jul 2019

vlad said:
That map suggests to me that there's one station at Porthmadog served by TfW and FR - it might be an idea to skew it a bit given the stations are over half a mile apart.

Good point! new layout as below:

(Borth - Bow Street now corrected too)

Sheridan · 18 Jul 2019

That latest screenshot has led me to notice that the second R is missing from Abererch

DelW · 18 Jul 2019

Sheridan said:
That latest screenshot has led me to notice that the second R is missing from Abererch

Thanks, I thought there'd be the odd typo' in there, especially in the Welsh names :'(

DelW · 31 Jul 2019

DelW said:
Not sure when (or even if) the next version will get posted, but comments so far have been incorporated (where I agreed with them), so thanks to those who made them

For those who were interested before, after quite a bit more playing about in odd spare moments, I've come up with the next version; I'm not sure whether it's better or not, but it's different.

The most obvious change is the addition of a stylised coastline, which has necessitated redrawing the Pembrokeshire branches and the Lleyn peninsula, plus other smaller changes, to improve their geographic accuracy at some cost to simplicity.

Other changes, in no particular order:

correction of errors and typo's
improved layouts at Llandudno Junction and Porthmadog (as suggested above), and Crewe
bigger dots for main stations (as suggested above)
Marches and Cambrian lines back to main line colour (as suggested above)
Swansea District line added (not geographically accurately though)
Ninian Park and Queen St moved closer to Cardiff Central
changes of direction on the Heart of Wales now roughly between correct stations

I think I've run out of ideas for now, but who knows, there might yet be a version 3.

krus_aragon · 31 Jul 2019

That looks very impressive. The coastal outline, and prominence given to main stations, helps the viewer work out where they need to look. I think your implementation of the Swansea District line works perfectly as it is.

My observations are getting more minor and nitpicky as the map improves:

The roundels for the minor stations show a little bit of white inside the circle. Going for a solid circle of the line colour might be tidier.
The black fill of the roundels shows some artifacts from your SVG software, there's a faint zig-zag line across the centre.
The green branch from Shrewsbury to Crewe is superimposed on the red line toward Chester at the junction. It should presumably be behind it, like at Dovey Jn.
The blue water along the English side of the Severn estuary continues a fair distance south. At first glance, I thought it was indicating a separate land mass south of Newport and STJ, but west of "England". (I know you've got a solid blue outline next to the coast, but I didn't notice it immediately.) Perhaps shortening the blue water on the English side, so it doesn't extend so far down, might reduce this.
I like the cohesive network of red "main" lines. But now that the colour red has a clear visual purpose, the use of orange is a bit confusing. As a viewer, there doesn't seem to be an obvious reason for the Conwy Valley, Pembroke and Fishguard lines to be the same colour as the Valley Lines network.

DelW · 31 Jul 2019

Thanks for your further thoughts

I think I should have looked longer at the PDF version as it has a few unintended 'features', which aren't as obvious in the Autocad model. The draw order (i.e. which colour overlays which) is wrong in several places, the Menai strait, Whitland and Wrexham General being others as well as north of Shrewsbury as you spotted. Previously I had the station circles behind the line colour, but that looked odd in some places too, I don't think I've found the perfect solution there yet. I'm generally not very happy with the quality of the PDF conversion either, I may try to see if I can increase the resolution, and if not, maybe try a different typeface as I don't think the letter quality is really good enough. It all looks much 'tidier' in Autocad, where within constraints of screen resolution, everything keeps its true shape and width regardless of magnification.

The rationale for the English coastline was that it extends to the same latitudes as the Welsh coast does, although even that is slightly inconsistent, as it goes to level with the outside of the shading at the north, but the inside of the shading at the south. I think I could improve the look and accuracy around the Severn estuary.

Maybe there will be another version in time!

krus_aragon · 31 Jul 2019

DelW said:
The rationale for the English coastline was that it extends to the same latitudes as the Welsh coast does, although even that is slightly inconsistent, as it goes to level with the outside of the shading at the north, but the inside of the shading at the south. I think I could improve the look and accuracy around the Severn estuary.

One idea that's just occurred to me: if the outer layer of cross-hatchings were drawn in a lighter blue, or faded to white, that could make things clearer.

DelW · 1 Aug 2019

krus_aragon said:
One idea that's just occurred to me: if the outer layer of cross-hatchings were drawn in a lighter blue, or faded to white, that could make things clearer.

I agree, it makes the blue hatching less dominant. I've started to investigate graded fill, as well as hi-res plotting to PDF, neither of which I've ever used before, so it's a good exercise in improving my Autocad knowledge.

Excerpt from the PDF file of work in progress:

Welshman · 1 Aug 2019

An excellent result.
Speaking personally, I prefer the blue faded to white instead of the cross-hatching. To me. the hatching is too brash, and suggests I'm starting migraine!
And, really nit-picking now - Holyhead is actually on another island, but it may be over-complicating things to try and show this.

DelW · 1 Aug 2019

Welshman said:
An excellent result.
Speaking personally, I prefer the blue faded to white instead of the cross-hatching. To me. the hatching is too brash, and suggests I'm starting migraine!
And, really nit-picking now - Holyhead is actually on another island, but it may be over-complicating things to try and show this.

Thanks for the compliment!
The gradient fill does look good, but it's proving, er, challenging to make it look right in the more complicated areas. Definitely a longer-term task, so in the meantime I've toned-down the hatch pattern.
I have experimented with showing Holy Island separately, but the problem is to fit in the text of "Holyhead" without either Holy Island being much too large relative to Anglesey, or the name going over the coast symbol. There are a few locations where it would be much easier with shorter names!
Current version attached, still v2a as the track layout diagram hasn't changed other than marginally south of Cardiff, everything else is just cosmetics.

Quakkerillo · 1 Aug 2019

You seem to have a line connecting Ponttardulais to Briton Ferry. Are there any trains? I've just tried to look on PSUL (Passenger Service Unusual Lines) and the TfW timetables that I could find, but couldn't really find such a service quickly.

DelW · 1 Aug 2019

Quakkerillo said:
You seem to have a line connecting Ponttardulais to Briton Ferry. Are there any trains? I've just tried to look on PSUL (Passenger Service Unusual Lines) and the TfW timetables that I could find, but couldn't really find such a service quickly.

It's the Swansea District line. I'm no expert on TfW services, but I think there are, or at least have been, a few Fishguard passenger services that use it to avoid Swansea. I've only been over it on charters though.

TfW Mapping Errors

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