Commuter Routes with 7 or more coaches (NOT to/from/via London)

Jgmck · 6 Jul 2019

Hi All,

Been reading the forum for a couple of years now without ever posting. However I was wondering and hoped someone may know the answer or even a thread previously created on this topic as I was unable to find one. What commuter routes outside London have units with more than 6 carriages?

I am aware of Edinburgh - Glasgow Via Falkirk High presently running at 7 with a view to increasing to 8 in the near future.

I also read on here that a few Glasgow to Ayr services run with 7 at peak times are there any more within the UK?

Thanks in advance.

RailUK Forums

JohnRegular · 6 Jul 2019

The Southampton Ctl - Portsmouth & SS stoppers normally use 4 carriage class 450s, but in the peaks these are ~~often~~ (edit: occasionaly) doubled up as 8 carriage trains.

Jgmck · 6 Jul 2019

JohnRegular said:
The Southampton Ctl - Portsmouth & SS stoppers normally use 4 carriage class 450s, but in the peaks these are often doubled up as 8 carriage trains.

Thanks very much, in thinking I imagine there’s a few similar services in that region served by south western, southern etc.

Peter0124 · 6 Jul 2019

I seen an 8 car EMT Class 158 leaving Manchester Piccadilly once heading for Norwich during the peak, wouldve obviously split up further along the route.

J-2739 · 6 Jul 2019

When introduced, the 4 car Stadlers units for Merseyrail could couple up to form 8 car sets.

swt_passenger · 6 Jul 2019

JohnRegular said:
The Southampton Ctl - Portsmouth & SS stoppers normally use 4 carriage class 450s, but in the peaks these are often doubled up as 8 carriage trains.

Never doubled in my experience. No evidence for that in the current carriage working notices.

Maude673 · 6 Jul 2019

I’ve travelled on a 7 car Largs to Glasgow Central service. I’m not sure if that is a regular occurrence though or to accommodate weekend daytrippers.

JohnRegular · 6 Jul 2019

swt_passenger said:
Never doubled in my experience. No evidence for that in the current carriage working notices.

My apologies, I don't normally use the service in the peaks but I recall it being doubled up last time I did (which was at least a year ago); sorry to mislead anyone.

route:oxford · 6 Jul 2019

Jgmck said:
Hi All,

Been reading the forum for a couple of years now without ever posting. However I was wondering and hoped someone may know the answer or even a thread previously created on this topic as I was unable to find one. What commuter routes outside London have units with more than 6 carriages? I am aware of E-G (Edinburgh - Glasgow Via Falkirk High) presently running at 7 with a view to increasing to 8 in the near future. I also read on here that a few Glasgow to Ayr services run with 7 at peak times are there any more within the UK?

Thanks in advance.

Doesn't this get quite complicated in that some inter-city services act as commuter services?

There
are significant commuter flows between Oxford-Didcot-Reading that are served by both GWR and XC services - which can often be more than 6 coaches.

faltskog36abba · 6 Jul 2019

I have been on an 8 carriage early morning train from Hillington west to Glasgow central a few years back.

ValleyLines142 · 6 Jul 2019

Does it have to be more than six carriages? Because the Cross City Line in Birmingham has regular six carriage workings and there are regular double 334 services.

I think the Edinburgh to Glasgow Queen Street 380/385s in a mixture of 3+4 car formation is probably the winner then.

Are there any early morning LNWR services between Crewe and Birmingham 8 car 450s?

Clansman · 6 Jul 2019

There used to be a mid afternoon Glasgow to Aberdeen service before the December timetable change last year that ran up as a 170 leading a 158 as a 5 five coach set to Aberdeen, then coupled to either another 170 or 158, and formed a peak time service to Inverness running as 7 or 8 cars to Inverurie and then dropping the rear unit off (which forms a local back to Stonehaven) and running as either 5 or 6 coaches the rest of the way. The Aberdeen to Inverurie leg used to be the longest DMU service outside of London.

Edi: This service is actually a conjoining of ex Glasgow-Aberdeen and ex Inverness-Aberdeen services to form 1A69 Glasgow to Inverness.

Mag_seven · 6 Jul 2019

route:oxford said:
Doesn't this get quite complicated in that some inter-city services act as commuter services?

There
are significant commuter flows between Oxford-Didcot-Reading that are served by both GWR and XC services - which can often be more than 6 coaches.

Others that spring to mind are routes into the likes of Birmingham/Manchester using 9/11 car Class 390s.

XC90 · 6 Jul 2019

7 car Glasgow - Gourock runs late at night. Presumably for 2 services the next morning.

pompeyfan · 6 Jul 2019

swt_passenger said:
Never doubled in my experience. No evidence for that in the current carriage working notices.

8 cars during special events such as music festivals in Portsmouth, Great South Run etc etc, but it’s not unheard of, but it certainly isn’t common.

Also not unknown for Southern to run 8 car along the coast when there’s something on at Chichester, but again, not booked so I don’t think either example counts towards the OPs question.

swt_passenger · 6 Jul 2019

pompeyfan said:
8 cars during special events such as music festivals in Portsmouth, Great South Run etc etc, but it’s not unheard of, but it certainly isn’t common...

Yes, it was mainly the idea that they are routinely doubled up in the normal day by day peaks that I was having trouble with. I also wondered if a normal 8 car from Waterloo via Eastleigh might possibly have been mistaken between Fareham and Portsmouth or vice versa...

jopsuk · 7 Jul 2019

DanTrainMan185 said:
Does it have to be more than six carriages? Because the Cross City Line in Birmingham has regular six carriage workings and there are regular double 334 services.

I think that's the point- 6 car is common in the Birmingham and Glasgow areas

plugwash · 7 Jul 2019

Mag_seven said:
Others that spring to mind are routes into the likes of Birmingham/Manchester using 9/11 car Class 390s.

Other than during disruption, do the 390s run any services that don't involve london?

HamworthyGoods · 7 Jul 2019

Clansman said:
There used to be a mid afternoon Glasgow to Aberdeen service before the December timetable change last year that ran up as a 170 leading a 158 as a 5 five coach set to Aberdeen, then coupled to either another 170 or 158, and formed a peak time service to Inverness running as 7 or 8 cars to Inverurie and then dropping the rear unit off (which forms a local back to Stonehaven) and running as either 5 or 6 coaches the rest of the way. The Aberdeen to Inverurie leg used to be the longest DMU service outside of London.

I’d have thought the longest DMU services outside of London would be those running with pairs of voyagers on cross country?

PG · 8 Jul 2019

Clansman said:
There used to be a mid afternoon Glasgow to Aberdeen service before the December timetable change last year that ran up as a 170 leading a 158 as a 5 five coach set to Aberdeen, then coupled to either another 170 or 158, and formed a peak time service to Inverness running as 7 or 8 cars to Inverurie and then dropping the rear unit off (which forms a local back to Stonehaven) and running as either 5 or 6 coaches the rest of the way. The Aberdeen to Inverurie leg used to be the longest DMU service outside of London.

Would the whole 7/8 coach formation have been available for passenger use between Aberdeen and Inverurie? If not then it'd effectively be a 5 or 6 coach train.

If the rear unit was just being dropped at Inverurie surely it'd speed the detachment to lock it out prior to departure from Aberdeen - or am I missing something?

Starmill · 8 Jul 2019

JohnRegular said:
The Southampton Ctl - Portsmouth & SS stoppers normally use 4 carriage class 450s, but in the peaks these are ~~often~~ (edit: occasionaly) doubled up as 8 carriage trains.

So, almost never, then.

Peter0124 said:
I seen an 8 car EMT Class 158 leaving Manchester Piccadilly once heading for Norwich during the peak, wouldve obviously split up further along the route.

Again, almost never happens.

PG said:
Would the whole 7/8 coach formation have been available for passenger use between Aberdeen and Inverurie? If not then it'd effectively be a 5 or 6 coach train.

This was literally one service, and only part of it, and I don't think it even runs any more?

Starmill · 8 Jul 2019

Jgmck said:
What commuter routes outside London have units with more than 6 carriages?

The criteria here are certainly an interesting question. For example, there are a large number of West Midlands Trains services between Birmingham and Coventry which are formed of 8 coaches, and this is a clear example of a 'commuter route'. However, as most (though not all) trains run through to and from London Euston, does this disqualify these services?

HamworthyGoods said:
I’d have thought the longest DMU services outside of London would be those running with pairs of voyagers on cross country?

As this post alludes to, CrossCountry run many which have more than 6 carriages, but the question here is what does the OP consider a 'commuter route'. There are lots of Leeds commuters on XC, and lots of them will travel from Wakefield, Sheffield or York on trains longer than 6 coaches. Does that qualify this as a commuter route?

Mag_seven said:
Others that spring to mind are routes into the likes of Birmingham/Manchester using 9/11 car Class 390s.

There are 2 services from Crewe to Manchester Piccadilly in the morning which are run by Class 390s. I think these clearly qualify as commuter services. Do any others, though?

plugwash · 8 Jul 2019

Starmill said:
There are 2 services from Crewe to Manchester Piccadilly in the morning which are run by Class 390s. I think these clearly qualify as commuter services. Do any others, though?

Does a train that goes through a whole bunch of commuter stations without stopping count as a commuter train?

185143 · 8 Jul 2019

plugwash said:
Does a train that goes through a whole bunch of commuter stations without stopping count as a commuter train?

Yes.

Is a WMT service running Milton Keynes-Euston non stop suddenly not a commuter train despite having stopped at every station since Crewe?

61653 HTAFC · 8 Jul 2019

Commuters from Wakefield Westgate to Leeds get 9-car sets (11 if you count the locomotives/DVTs on the end) if they time their journey right...

Jgmck · 8 Jul 2019

Starmill said:
The criteria here are certainly an interesting question. For example, there are a large number of West Midlands Trains services between Birmingham and Coventry which are formed of 8 coaches, and this is a clear example of a 'commuter route'. However, as most (though not all) trains run through to and from London Euston, does this disqualify these services?

As this post alludes to, CrossCountry run many which have more than 6 carriages, but the question here is what does the OP consider a 'commuter route'. There are lots of Leeds commuters on XC, and lots of them will travel from Wakefield, Sheffield or York on trains longer than 6 coaches. Does that qualify this as a commuter route?
There are 2 services from Crewe to Manchester Piccadilly in the morning which are run by Class 390s. I think these clearly qualify as commuter services. Do any others, though?

Since creating this thread I have discovered the vagueness of the question but I think to make it simple any journey involving a station within the Transport for London boundary disqualifies it. This is mainly because I was curious to see what other routes can experience large crowds similar to those routes within London and the surrounding areas.

Would it be common to find a decent amount of commuters on the route from start to finish? It has been hard to define some cross country routes but I believe a simple way to answer that is from personal experience will you see a healthy load of commuters boarding the train from the first few stops and staying on right until the end on a daily basis. Not just joining a service that commenced an hour or so before they joined the train. Apologies for the vagueness surrounding this question once again but thank you all for the replies greatly appreciated.

I am certainly open to taking on other opinions on these matters as I may have missed some large factors.

Clansman · 8 Jul 2019

HamworthyGoods said:
I’d have thought the longest DMU services outside of London would be those running with pairs of voyagers on cross country?

They're DEMUs so they don't really count.

PG said:
Would the whole 7/8 coach formation have been available for passenger use between Aberdeen and Inverurie? If not then it'd effectively be a 5 or 6 coach train.

If the rear unit was just being dropped at Inverurie surely it'd speed the detachment to lock it out prior to departure from Aberdeen - or am I missing something?

The whole 7/8 coach formation was in use to Inverurie, as the sole purepose of it was to provide peak time capacity. The return departure of the split unit from was consequential of this, and not the reason it was coupled in the first place.

Prior to that service the whole train ran as 2 units to Inverness. More services were needed for local routes around Aberdeen to increase connectivity and provide more capacity for particular services, so this bred the changes to the said service (extending a Glasgow service to Inverness via Inverurie allowing passengers from south of Aberdeen to remain on the train, to provide more capacity, and to provide the additional local services needed).

Starmill said:
This was literally one service, and only part of it, and I don't think it even runs any more?

It's still running between Glasgow and Dyce, and has been temporarily suspended to inverurie because of the ongoing dualling of the Aberdeen to Inverness line which has resulted in the line being blocked and buses being hired to fill in legs of the journey as and when each section is completed. With the introduction of HSTs working most services from Glasgow to Aberdeen, this is one of the few services which is booked for a DMU.

With the opening of Kintore by the end of the year, 7/8 coaches will be needed then more than ever on this service, providing frequencies remain the same to Inverurie and HSTs not fully covering Glasgow-Aberdeen by then (which they won't be).

route101 · 8 Jul 2019

faltskog36abba said:
I have been on an 8 carriage early morning train from Hillington west to Glasgow central a few years back.

Surely a 6 or 7 car?

route101 · 8 Jul 2019

plugwash said:
Other than during disruption, do the 390s run any services that don't involve london?

Glasgow/ Edinburgh to Birmingham perhaps

darloscott · 8 Jul 2019

There was (still is?) an 8 car 319 from Liverpool-Man Victoria & return albeit only 4 available for passenger use to get units in the right places

Commuter Routes with 7 or more coaches (NOT to/from/via London)

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