Yes. I have seen new buses on the 4 and 16 as well. I understand that these five routes will be the target for the new delivery.
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First West Yorkshire & York discussion
- Thread starter NorthernSpirit
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Yes. I have seen new buses on the 4 and 16 as well. I understand that these five routes will be the target for the new delivery.
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NorthernSpirit
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In regards with the York referbs, yes as I did see a photo somewhere on twitter which had the lower saloon seating removed leaving only the seat frames. It's likely that the new seats will be this leather stuff instead of moquette, I prefer the latter myself as it gives the seat slightly more warmth.
overthewater
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NorthernSpirit
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Yes, that's the one.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Understand that First Essex are receiving some 12 plate Ex Leeds B9s - ones that were erroneously rumoured to go to Kernow.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Rather sobering that it is newer than the rest of the fleet save the P&R e200mmc/electric Versas!
Anyhow, as long as it helps get rid of those B7Ls and the ex London B7TLs with their uncomfortable seats, it’s a modest improvement. Take it that Leeds is continuing to receive Streetdecks?
robert west
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36217 and 36218 arrived at hadleigh depot southend on 22/06/19
NorthernSpirit
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I've just seen 37360 depart from Brighouse bus station on the 256 to Bradford via Cleckheaton.
I wonder where it's off to soon since its been de-Bradford Skylined? Norwich? Kernow? Bath?
Leeds is still getting Streetdecks with the most recent delivery being for the 49, 50 and 50A. I'm starting to wonder what the next corridor will be that'll be Streetdecked? I'm guessing Scott Hall Road which is served by the 7Series (7, 7A, 7S and X7), Meanwood Road (51 and 52) or Kirkstall Road (33, 34, 35). I could see both the Meanwood and Scott Hall Road routes combined as a single corridor.
How I'm seeing it, is eventually all of the routes in Leeds will either be operated by a Streetlite or a Streetdeck. Any of the older stuff will most likely end up in Bradford, Halifax, Huddersfield, transfered elsewhere in the group (that is if UK Bus still exists) or PVS Barnsley once the older stuff is finally broken.
I wonder where it's off to soon since its been de-Bradford Skylined? Norwich? Kernow? Bath?
Leeds is still getting Streetdecks with the most recent delivery being for the 49, 50 and 50A. I'm starting to wonder what the next corridor will be that'll be Streetdecked? I'm guessing Scott Hall Road which is served by the 7Series (7, 7A, 7S and X7), Meanwood Road (51 and 52) or Kirkstall Road (33, 34, 35). I could see both the Meanwood and Scott Hall Road routes combined as a single corridor.
How I'm seeing it, is eventually all of the routes in Leeds will either be operated by a Streetlite or a Streetdeck. Any of the older stuff will most likely end up in Bradford, Halifax, Huddersfield, transfered elsewhere in the group (that is if UK Bus still exists) or PVS Barnsley once the older stuff is finally broken.
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darloscott
Member
Not all routes will be... I would imagine the hybrids will be staying on the 7s given they're in the process of being given the LeedsCity green. A number of B7RLEs are to be upgraded to Euro6 also, of which two so far have been repainted green.
NorthernSpirit
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The hybrids are sometimes used on the X98 and X99 to Wetherby too.
In Calderdale, services 548 and 549 (Halifax > Brighouse > Nunnery Lane[548] / Huddersfield[549]) and service 579 (Halifax > Sowerby Bridge > Sowerby) have recieved upgraded vehicles with Euro 6 engines.
https://www.firstgroup.com/halifax-...ates/news/calderdale-bus-fleet-receives-green
Kieran1990
Member
Isn’t there an issue fitting the guide wheels to the street decks? Hence why the 56 hasn’t gone over.. same issue would effect the 7’s that run up and down Scott Hall Rd
robert west
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36219 and 36220 also at hadleigh southend 3
how many are first essex getting?
Following on from this, definitely a transferred in batch. Currently on 37676 and 37678 pulled up at York station as I was leaving.
Thanks, a guy I got chatting to at Keighley today said something similar.
NorthernSpirit
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I've seen some of the green striped Streetdeck's not only on the 49, 50 and 50A but also on both the 4 and 16 on Sunday. I take it that this will be known as the St. James' Corridor routes even though the 4 no longer passes St. Jimmy's?
I'm sure that the Scott Hall Road corridor / 7Series routes will be done next.
Bantamzen
Established Member
Ah, I saw that wandering around Leeds too although wrongly assumed it was a bus transferred to one of the independents to run the works services for Capita et al.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
After a trip to the Yorkshire homestead, I took the opportunity to head into downtown West Yorkshire and some areas that I’ve not visited for a few years. My last full day out was focussed on the southern part of the area. This time, I decided to aim for the more northern parts on a WY Dayrover. Hopefully, this provides a fair and unbiased view of the operators and operations in that area and is also of interest! Thought I'd post it here as it was more First orientated than any other operator
I started at the White Rose Centre, ignoring the fast services to Leeds in favour of the more leisurely First 65 through Holbeck. I’d hoped for a B7L but instead, it was a 2004 standard B7RLE in 66740, a recent transfer in from Halifax. It being a rush hour journey, passenger numbers were healthy as we carved our way through Beeston and Holbeck. The vehicle itself was generally clean but the lack of any mid-life refurb was evident with fraying and faded seats. There was also a complete absence of any internal advertising aside from a penalty notice warning sign. Into Leeds with plenty of new Streetdecks on view, which was impressive. The new green First livery is bright but then again, it’s all new. Not convinced on the coloured slashes, if only because there’s not really any indication on the vehicles as to what they signify. A newly repainted B7RLE looked very fresh but without any hint of an internal refurb whilst a familiar sight in ex Bristol B7L (66345), looking very tatty still in partial Barbie, suggests these might be going sooner rather than later? I decided on getting the 7S to Moortown, if only to experience some guided bus action on Scott Hall Road. The vehicle was one of the B5LHs with quite luxurious seating (39234). These carry a revised green version of Urban livery – again, these are nice vehicles with green credentials yet very little if anything to promote this! The short section of guided bus did seem a bit superfluous though I was heading out of the city.
After a coffee break in Moortown, I decided to head out and redefine my riding with a trip on the 36. Naturally, I read my little red book of Transdev’s #amazing comments, swore allegiance to Alex Hornby, and waited. 3628 duly arrived on a short working to Harrogate passing an Eclipse on an inbound working wearing a red livery inspired by the blood of a newly slaughtered lamb. Actually, my view is of being impressed but not amazed. This being a 2015 example, the interior wasn’t scruffy or even frayed but had the lived in look. The amount of legroom and space is impressive and you can see that they really are chasing the fare paying market, supported by a slow competing train service. However, I spied they were advertising the connectivity with the CityZap to York and Manchester – really, if you’re going to advertise it, then take it down when it’s no longer relevant. The best thing was the driver; in fact, most of the Transdev drivers were noticeably friendly in their approach (though I’m sure there are some miserable ones). I got off and then waited for the infrequent 923 to Otley, operated by one of the Keighley MPDs (717). This is a fast run and a 2004 MPD would usually fill me with dread. This was actually quite comfortable, very clean and well-presented internally, if a little dreary externally. There was a single non-standard seat cover though it was a close but not perfect match. I arrived in Otley and the bijou bus station which doesn’t seem to have changed much in 30 years? I made a quick swap back to First with a 2016 e400 (33486) for the X84 to Ilkley. Now, this is where I agree with Deerfold in that it does highlight how First and Transdev differ. Now the X84 will never be able to perform like the 36 but could it do better with the better marketing? The vehicle is good and actually had some decent internal branding but not up to the Transdev standard. Still, it was a nice trip up to Ilkley, being quicker than the parallel Transdev 62. Hence I was able to have a short break in Ilkley before getting onto the 62, operated by Eclipse 1847. This is a cracking route over to Keighley and the B7RLE is perhaps the best vehicle for it. Don’t know if I’d fancy it on a Versa or Streetlite. However, this was the most disappointing Transdev vehicle of the day. I know they’ve commence a refurb programme but this one was showing its age a bit. Also, a Metro advert proclaiming changes happening in December 2014 doesn’t show a proactive side. It wasn’t bad but it was a bit frayed at the seams so a bit less than amazing. Still, we had a good load as we arrived into Keighley bus station just before midday.
This was as much as I’d planned so I wondered where to go next? I confess that the last time I travelled to Keighley, I left on a First Calderline B10B Strider….. it was that long ago! A quick check and Hebden Bridge was duly advertised so I caught the Bronte bus. Now, this IS where Transdev have got it right. I think this was a former First route (500? – would be interested to know it’s history) and it’s a blinder. The vehicle was 453, a 2005 B7RLE and compared to the similar First vehicle earlier in the day, it was chalk and cheese. Carrying a dateless plate, you’d never know it wasn’t half its age. Tastefully refurbished and with comprehensive Stenning trademark internal branding, it was a comfortable ride out of Keighley and when it hit the hills, it climbed with power. The odd rattle and squeak perhaps indicated it wasn’t quite as young but that’s being picky. There was the tight loop through Oxenhope which was a bit of a squeak with an Eclipse and then the climb onto the top of the moors. Stunning in the sunshine, it’s a great ride that I’d recommend to anyone. Also a bit tight dropping into Hebden Bridge which is a town I’d never visited. Very quirky, with a female opera singer busking whilst I ate my jacket potato! The main route from Hebden Bridge is the Halifax route with a healthy 12 min headway. I expected another Eclipse but First Todmorden instead had a B9TL on there. I think 37129 was a recent Leeds exile. It was reasonably tidy despite a bit of window etching but would benefit from refurbishment. These routes form part of the Calder Connect brand with a green slash on the front of Urban livery but nowhere near as imposing or arresting as the green based Transdev or Leeds City liveries. I arrived into Halifax to see one of the Zest B7TLs looking a bit tired for something on a trunk service. I had a decision where to go to next and nearly headed out to Brighouse on the 549 (on a former Bristol B7L) but common sense dictated I headed towards Leeds, so it was time for an Arriva moment.
Now I don’t know the history of Halifax’s services over the last 25 years so be interested to know what has happened. The 255 is now the only Arriva service to service Halifax? I’m sure that there were more in the Yorkshire Woollen/early Arriva days? There is, of course, Yorkshire Tiger who are Arriva owned and seem to have carved a niche; is that from taking on the routes that First have deregistered over time? Certainly, it seems First are focussed only on the main routes now and aside from a few Streetlites, the fleet seems very middle aged in comparison to Leeds. I caught Arriva 1981, a 2017 e400. Now this vehicle seemed to sum up the confusion of Arriva UK Bus. Arriva Yorkshire is one of the better, stronger operations and this vehicle was nicely presented in the insipid corporate livery. However, it was apparently new in the stronger dark blue fronted Sapphire version. Internally, it had the old Max identity on the headrests. There wasn’t a scrap of promotion on the interior; it seems a business that doesn’t really know what it wants to be or how to look. The build quality, as with some ADL products, was also a bit iffy as we rattled and squeaked through places like Scholes on the way to Cleckheaton. Sadly, a tight connection wasn’t made as I saw what I think was a Pulsar leaving on the 200. Instead, I had 30 mins to kill in Cleckheaton. I remember the old bus station and I have to say that the PTE really does know how to overspecify a bus station (see also Ossett). A large saw tooth bus station, away from the centre of town, with limited usage so that the shop contained there is up for rent. Eventually, another 200 arrived and Cleck is obviously used for Heckmondwike driver changes as we swapped pilots and Arriva DB250 1604 was readied for the run to Morley. Now this was actually a very nicely presented vehicle internally, with clean bright moquette seats and a quality that reflects Arriva Yorkshire’s position as one of the better parts of the empire. The East Lancs body was also much better in terms of rattles than the e400 but lord, it struggled with every hill as it seemed to labour.
Nonetheless, we seemed to get to Morley on time so perhaps it was just more graceful! I decamped onto my final bus. Fittingly, it was another Eclipse. This was a First 66998, a long time Leeds bus with some good internal publicity (unlike 66740 as my first steed) and not carrying the now defunct Pulse brand. It was the 47 that heads to the White Rose Centre via Cottingley. I assume that this was once a more profitable and frequent service but like many routes to the old council estates, it is a shadow of what it once was as economic activity and benefit cuts have hit. There were few passengers as we made our way around the loop of the estate, stopping at the small precinct. I glanced out of the window to see a rather tired looking woman (mid 30s looking nearer mid 50s) decant a can of Pepsi into a bottle containing a clear liquid… nice
We then made our way around to the White Rose Centre.
My overall impressions were that Transdev, First and Arriva operations in West Yorkshire are generally pretty decent. Clearly, First’s investment is centred on Leeds because of the quality framework there and that means Halifax (and the other areas) are relying on cascades. The new First Leeds livery is certainly an improvement over standard First and the tacky PULSE identity and I’d like to see it extended across the rest of West Yorkshire – a Yorkshire Rider for the 2020s! There are also services like the X84/5 that could better marketed – it isn’t bad now but could it be exploited more? Transdev’s image is in a state of flux especially in Keighley as the Hornby era refresh sits slightly uncomfortably alongside the now tired previous green and blue with the old Transdev identity still surprisingly much in evidence. They aren’t perfect nor amazing but I was impressed by the customer skills of the drivers and even their average “product” is still better than most. Arriva did seem to have a good operation with plenty of Max liveried routes and the Grand Yorkshire Connections. However, they seem to be struggling with the new identity and what Arriva actually wants to be. Is it quality, is it mass market, is it focussed on developing key routes or just a general provider? It seems all a bit unclear. The standards are better than First but it seems to be heading in the same direction.
I hope that this has been of interest and if you’re from the area, I’d be interested if my observations are typical and in the history of First’s retraction from Keighley (and if my recollection of more Arriva services in Halifax is right?). The northern and western edge of WY is glorious and I’d heartily recommend it. Oh, and sorry for writing so much
I started at the White Rose Centre, ignoring the fast services to Leeds in favour of the more leisurely First 65 through Holbeck. I’d hoped for a B7L but instead, it was a 2004 standard B7RLE in 66740, a recent transfer in from Halifax. It being a rush hour journey, passenger numbers were healthy as we carved our way through Beeston and Holbeck. The vehicle itself was generally clean but the lack of any mid-life refurb was evident with fraying and faded seats. There was also a complete absence of any internal advertising aside from a penalty notice warning sign. Into Leeds with plenty of new Streetdecks on view, which was impressive. The new green First livery is bright but then again, it’s all new. Not convinced on the coloured slashes, if only because there’s not really any indication on the vehicles as to what they signify. A newly repainted B7RLE looked very fresh but without any hint of an internal refurb whilst a familiar sight in ex Bristol B7L (66345), looking very tatty still in partial Barbie, suggests these might be going sooner rather than later? I decided on getting the 7S to Moortown, if only to experience some guided bus action on Scott Hall Road. The vehicle was one of the B5LHs with quite luxurious seating (39234). These carry a revised green version of Urban livery – again, these are nice vehicles with green credentials yet very little if anything to promote this! The short section of guided bus did seem a bit superfluous though I was heading out of the city.
After a coffee break in Moortown, I decided to head out and redefine my riding with a trip on the 36. Naturally, I read my little red book of Transdev’s #amazing comments, swore allegiance to Alex Hornby, and waited. 3628 duly arrived on a short working to Harrogate passing an Eclipse on an inbound working wearing a red livery inspired by the blood of a newly slaughtered lamb. Actually, my view is of being impressed but not amazed. This being a 2015 example, the interior wasn’t scruffy or even frayed but had the lived in look. The amount of legroom and space is impressive and you can see that they really are chasing the fare paying market, supported by a slow competing train service. However, I spied they were advertising the connectivity with the CityZap to York and Manchester – really, if you’re going to advertise it, then take it down when it’s no longer relevant. The best thing was the driver; in fact, most of the Transdev drivers were noticeably friendly in their approach (though I’m sure there are some miserable ones). I got off and then waited for the infrequent 923 to Otley, operated by one of the Keighley MPDs (717). This is a fast run and a 2004 MPD would usually fill me with dread. This was actually quite comfortable, very clean and well-presented internally, if a little dreary externally. There was a single non-standard seat cover though it was a close but not perfect match. I arrived in Otley and the bijou bus station which doesn’t seem to have changed much in 30 years? I made a quick swap back to First with a 2016 e400 (33486) for the X84 to Ilkley. Now, this is where I agree with Deerfold in that it does highlight how First and Transdev differ. Now the X84 will never be able to perform like the 36 but could it do better with the better marketing? The vehicle is good and actually had some decent internal branding but not up to the Transdev standard. Still, it was a nice trip up to Ilkley, being quicker than the parallel Transdev 62. Hence I was able to have a short break in Ilkley before getting onto the 62, operated by Eclipse 1847. This is a cracking route over to Keighley and the B7RLE is perhaps the best vehicle for it. Don’t know if I’d fancy it on a Versa or Streetlite. However, this was the most disappointing Transdev vehicle of the day. I know they’ve commence a refurb programme but this one was showing its age a bit. Also, a Metro advert proclaiming changes happening in December 2014 doesn’t show a proactive side. It wasn’t bad but it was a bit frayed at the seams so a bit less than amazing. Still, we had a good load as we arrived into Keighley bus station just before midday.
This was as much as I’d planned so I wondered where to go next? I confess that the last time I travelled to Keighley, I left on a First Calderline B10B Strider….. it was that long ago! A quick check and Hebden Bridge was duly advertised so I caught the Bronte bus. Now, this IS where Transdev have got it right. I think this was a former First route (500? – would be interested to know it’s history) and it’s a blinder. The vehicle was 453, a 2005 B7RLE and compared to the similar First vehicle earlier in the day, it was chalk and cheese. Carrying a dateless plate, you’d never know it wasn’t half its age. Tastefully refurbished and with comprehensive Stenning trademark internal branding, it was a comfortable ride out of Keighley and when it hit the hills, it climbed with power. The odd rattle and squeak perhaps indicated it wasn’t quite as young but that’s being picky. There was the tight loop through Oxenhope which was a bit of a squeak with an Eclipse and then the climb onto the top of the moors. Stunning in the sunshine, it’s a great ride that I’d recommend to anyone. Also a bit tight dropping into Hebden Bridge which is a town I’d never visited. Very quirky, with a female opera singer busking whilst I ate my jacket potato! The main route from Hebden Bridge is the Halifax route with a healthy 12 min headway. I expected another Eclipse but First Todmorden instead had a B9TL on there. I think 37129 was a recent Leeds exile. It was reasonably tidy despite a bit of window etching but would benefit from refurbishment. These routes form part of the Calder Connect brand with a green slash on the front of Urban livery but nowhere near as imposing or arresting as the green based Transdev or Leeds City liveries. I arrived into Halifax to see one of the Zest B7TLs looking a bit tired for something on a trunk service. I had a decision where to go to next and nearly headed out to Brighouse on the 549 (on a former Bristol B7L) but common sense dictated I headed towards Leeds, so it was time for an Arriva moment.
Now I don’t know the history of Halifax’s services over the last 25 years so be interested to know what has happened. The 255 is now the only Arriva service to service Halifax? I’m sure that there were more in the Yorkshire Woollen/early Arriva days? There is, of course, Yorkshire Tiger who are Arriva owned and seem to have carved a niche; is that from taking on the routes that First have deregistered over time? Certainly, it seems First are focussed only on the main routes now and aside from a few Streetlites, the fleet seems very middle aged in comparison to Leeds. I caught Arriva 1981, a 2017 e400. Now this vehicle seemed to sum up the confusion of Arriva UK Bus. Arriva Yorkshire is one of the better, stronger operations and this vehicle was nicely presented in the insipid corporate livery. However, it was apparently new in the stronger dark blue fronted Sapphire version. Internally, it had the old Max identity on the headrests. There wasn’t a scrap of promotion on the interior; it seems a business that doesn’t really know what it wants to be or how to look. The build quality, as with some ADL products, was also a bit iffy as we rattled and squeaked through places like Scholes on the way to Cleckheaton. Sadly, a tight connection wasn’t made as I saw what I think was a Pulsar leaving on the 200. Instead, I had 30 mins to kill in Cleckheaton. I remember the old bus station and I have to say that the PTE really does know how to overspecify a bus station (see also Ossett). A large saw tooth bus station, away from the centre of town, with limited usage so that the shop contained there is up for rent. Eventually, another 200 arrived and Cleck is obviously used for Heckmondwike driver changes as we swapped pilots and Arriva DB250 1604 was readied for the run to Morley. Now this was actually a very nicely presented vehicle internally, with clean bright moquette seats and a quality that reflects Arriva Yorkshire’s position as one of the better parts of the empire. The East Lancs body was also much better in terms of rattles than the e400 but lord, it struggled with every hill as it seemed to labour.
Nonetheless, we seemed to get to Morley on time so perhaps it was just more graceful! I decamped onto my final bus. Fittingly, it was another Eclipse. This was a First 66998, a long time Leeds bus with some good internal publicity (unlike 66740 as my first steed) and not carrying the now defunct Pulse brand. It was the 47 that heads to the White Rose Centre via Cottingley. I assume that this was once a more profitable and frequent service but like many routes to the old council estates, it is a shadow of what it once was as economic activity and benefit cuts have hit. There were few passengers as we made our way around the loop of the estate, stopping at the small precinct. I glanced out of the window to see a rather tired looking woman (mid 30s looking nearer mid 50s) decant a can of Pepsi into a bottle containing a clear liquid… nice
We then made our way around to the White Rose Centre.My overall impressions were that Transdev, First and Arriva operations in West Yorkshire are generally pretty decent. Clearly, First’s investment is centred on Leeds because of the quality framework there and that means Halifax (and the other areas) are relying on cascades. The new First Leeds livery is certainly an improvement over standard First and the tacky PULSE identity and I’d like to see it extended across the rest of West Yorkshire – a Yorkshire Rider for the 2020s! There are also services like the X84/5 that could better marketed – it isn’t bad now but could it be exploited more? Transdev’s image is in a state of flux especially in Keighley as the Hornby era refresh sits slightly uncomfortably alongside the now tired previous green and blue with the old Transdev identity still surprisingly much in evidence. They aren’t perfect nor amazing but I was impressed by the customer skills of the drivers and even their average “product” is still better than most. Arriva did seem to have a good operation with plenty of Max liveried routes and the Grand Yorkshire Connections. However, they seem to be struggling with the new identity and what Arriva actually wants to be. Is it quality, is it mass market, is it focussed on developing key routes or just a general provider? It seems all a bit unclear. The standards are better than First but it seems to be heading in the same direction.
I hope that this has been of interest and if you’re from the area, I’d be interested if my observations are typical and in the history of First’s retraction from Keighley (and if my recollection of more Arriva services in Halifax is right?). The northern and western edge of WY is glorious and I’d heartily recommend it. Oh, and sorry for writing so much
Arriva Yorkshire 1981 wasn't new in the Sapphire version of the new livery, it has always carried the general version of new livery. Regarding your impressions of the Arriva Yorkshire brand. As you say, they had an extensive network of MAX Grand Yorkshire Connections and it all looked very good. I would suggest that if the local management had had their way, they would have continued this, but then the new livery has come along and kind of ruined the situation. The 2017 intake was obviously specced up with this in mind, but then had the new livery forced upon it at the eleventh hour, so they are MAX branded inside but not on the outside, and the other MAX routes are both the flagship high profile services and also in an old livery at the same time where they can't really decide whether or not to keep promoting them or not.
For about the last 15 years Arriva had two hourly services into Halifax, one from Cleckheaton, one from Dewsbury, go back further and the Cleckheaton one was 2/3 per hour. The Dewsbury service (278) was withdrawn a few years ago replaced initially by a Yorkshire Tiger service, but then withdrawn itself.
The 47 has never really been a main service, the two main corridors from Morley have for a long time been the First 51/52 and the Arriva services now the 200/201.
The 500 used to be First with a small Keighley involvement, was taken entirely over by Keighley, made hourly, and recently renumbered B3
For about the last 15 years Arriva had two hourly services into Halifax, one from Cleckheaton, one from Dewsbury, go back further and the Cleckheaton one was 2/3 per hour. The Dewsbury service (278) was withdrawn a few years ago replaced initially by a Yorkshire Tiger service, but then withdrawn itself.
The 47 has never really been a main service, the two main corridors from Morley have for a long time been the First 51/52 and the Arriva services now the 200/201.
The 500 used to be First with a small Keighley involvement, was taken entirely over by Keighley, made hourly, and recently renumbered B3
NorthernSpirit
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My overall impressions were that Transdev, First and Arriva operations in West Yorkshire are generally pretty decent. Clearly, First’s investment is centred on Leeds because of the quality framework there and that means Halifax (and the other areas) are relying on cascades. The new First Leeds livery is certainly an improvement over standard First and the tacky PULSE identity and I’d like to see it extended across the rest of West Yorkshire – a Yorkshire Rider for the 2020s! There are also services like the X84/5 that could better marketed – it isn’t bad now but could it be exploited more?
Transdev’s image is in a state of flux especially in Keighley as the Hornby era refresh sits slightly uncomfortably alongside the now tired previous green and blue with the old Transdev identity still surprisingly much in evidence. They aren’t perfect nor amazing but I was impressed by the customer skills of the drivers and even their average “product” is still better than most. Arriva did seem to have a good operation with plenty of Max liveried routes and the Grand Yorkshire Connections. However, they seem to be struggling with the new identity and what Arriva actually wants to be. Is it quality, is it mass market, is it focussed on developing key routes or just a general provider? It seems all a bit unclear. The standards are better than First but it seems to be heading in the same direction.
I hope that this has been of interest and if you’re from the area, I’d be interested if my observations are typical and in the history of First’s retraction from Keighley (and if my recollection of more Arriva services in Halifax is right?). The northern and western edge of WY is glorious and I’d heartily recommend it. Oh, and sorry for writing so much
In regards to marketing, I don't think we'd see any proper publicity provided by First West Yorkshire as for some reason they refuse* to provide their own yet elsewhere such as West of England, Eastern Counties and Glasgow do provide proper publicity which is what FWY need to adopt. The last time First West Yorkshire provided any printed material was in 2015 and that was three area guides and a network map for Halifax, a network map for Huddersfield and a service 70 timetable for City Bus South Bank in Leeds (the last time I saw a First branded area map for Leeds was in 2010).
I do agree that the X84 and X85 does need better publicity but an out of date route map on the First Leeds website which only shows the X84 is a really poor show, especially when its one of the more premier routes (I'd also include the X63 and the X6).
West Yorkshire Combined Authority do have a consultation on the go at the moment about the Bus Information Strategy which looks at the key objectives of Digital First, Always Live, Customer Driven, Network wide, Inclusive and cost effective. The consultation can be found at www.yourvoice.westyorks-ca.gov.uk/bus-information-strategy
Off topic but linked in with your observations TGW, Arriva did run more services to Halifax but sometime in 2005 / 2006 they pulled out leaving only the then 227 ('fax to Hecky) and the 278 ('fax to Wakey) as the two Arriva operated services left. Norwood Green also lost its bus service, the 226 so for a time the X6 and the 363 sort of served Norwood Green by addtionally stopping at the bus stops on Huddersfield Road between Wyke Lion and Wyke Library. First West Yorkshire later took on the 226 as a two journey, three day week operation that ran on Monday's, Wednesday's and Friday's, deckers were allocated to the route for some reason unless it interworked with a schools working. The 226 was later dropped by First and was later picked up by LOT who later went into liquidation, TJ Walsh temporarily took on the route before South Pennine Community Transport took it on.
As with Hebden Bridge (someone from Westbury once remarked to me that it reminded her of a Yorkshire version of Frome - I can see why) First West Yorks did use to run a 906 between Midgehole and Widdop via Hebden Bridge that served the two main points of Hadcastle Crags this was later dropped and Tyrer bus took it on before the tender was passed back to First (Metro was recieving complaints about Tyrer), First later dropped this and the route was picked up by CT Calderdale, CT Calderdale later pulled out and TLC ran the service until 2018 after which the service was withdrawn. There was also a 517, a Saturday only service that avoided Hebden Brige but ran "across the tops" to Burnley - the service was later withdrawn in 2017.
One thing that I'd love to see being adopted by First West Yorkshire is the Discover brand, that could be rolled out on the Standedge corridor initially before being rolled out elsewhere in West Yorkshire. I still think that the 576 needs to be Zest'd up and the Ryburn Valley services 560 and 579 could do with being merged and the fleet painted up in a chocolate coloured version of Calder Connect, the same goes for the 541 and 542 but in yellow.
* Going by a member of Metro staff at a recent consultation event, First West Yorkshire outright refuse to print anything. I have suggested to them that Metro should ask First West of England for the timetable templates and print the First West Yorkshire timetables the same way - it'd give the illusion that FWY have printed them but they haven't, Metro have.
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I hope that this has been of interest and if you’re from the area, I’d be interested if my observations are typical and in the history of First’s retraction from Keighley (and if my recollection of more Arriva services in Halifax is right?). The northern and western edge of WY is glorious and I’d heartily recommend it. Oh, and sorry for writing so much
I agree with most of your observations,One of the main reasons Leeds is seeing such investment is also because of the Low Emissions zone due at some point next year,the odd thing is that it seems to be mostly the older cascades that the rest of West Yorkshire are getting,compared to the Essex/Wales that got the 12reg Gemini's
Your right that there used to be more Arriva Services into Halifax - The 255 is basically a more streamlined version of the 223/224 services from Halifax to Leeds (then there was also the 227 that ran a similar route as far as Cleckheaton,but instead of Leeds went to Heckmondwike & Dewsbury). There was also routes to Dewsbury (going further back went through to Wakefield via the current 268 route) Via Brighouse & Mirfield (originally 278/279 then just 278). The 278 got withdrawn about 2 years ago,with Tiger introducing a replacement service between Halifax & Brighouse & changing the 262 to run to Brighouse instead of Dewsbury from Mirfield - the Tiger service from Halifax didn't last long & i think there is now just a TJ Walsh minibus over the section between Elland & Brighouse.I think at one point the old 225/X25 might have also run from Halifax before getting cut to Brighouse.
Firsts retraction from Keighley first happened when the 502 (Huddersfield - Halifax - Keighley) was cut,first from Daily to Sundays only & I think it was around the same time Transdev took over running the 500 from First (Transdev already ran an hourly 664 from Oxenhope - so that was merged with the 500 to create an Hourly service to Hebden Bridge) When First ran the service it used to continue from Hebden Bridge to Todmorden - i think this might of been to make driver changeovers easier as it was run by Todmorden outstation,after a few years of being Sundays only the 502 was also withdrawn.
As well as the economic activity & downturn,i do think routes in some areas of Leeds such as Cottingley you mentioned have suffered from the frequent changes to routes over the years,as at one point Cottingley had a fairly simple bus service,Every 20 Mins on route 55 M-Fri then Evenings & Sundays routes 3/A extended from the White Rose Cnt to serve it - people switching to the trains no doubt played a part also.
I Do wonder if they did some decent publicity it might increase passenger numbers to restore the 15 Min Otley - Leeds frequency,after it was cut to 20 Mins in around 2010 - I Do think the Otley - Leeds section could have been a bigger success than it is,as it does not compete against the train & uses the same route most car uses would use into Leeds City Cnt,possibly extending some early morning/evening trips to serve the estates of Otley similar to what Transdev do on the 36 could help boost numbers.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
It's a typo on flickr where 1961 is listed as 1981 but I should've checked further
I didn't think the 47 was a main route but one that probably had seen better daysThanks to everyone for the information on Arriva/YWD in Halifax and First in Keighley. Very interesting.
Oh, and likening Hebden Bridge to Frome.... yeah, I get that. Perhaps fewer rainbow flags in Frome though.
The Hebden Bridge - Keighley service ran from at least the 1940s to the early 2000s as a joint venture with many different route numbers, finally settling on 500 by the late 70s (with 501 for extensions to Todmorden briefly). By the 90s it ran Wednesdays (3 journeys) and Saturdays (4 journeys) all year round, with (3) Sunday services being added in Spring and (3) daily services in high summer. There were services just an hour or less apart towards Keighley from the 2 different operators with a much larger gap in the other direction. Metro then tendered for an hourly daily daytime service. Transdev had the advantage as they already operated the commercial 663 which just needed extending so needing 1 extra bus an hour instead of 2. When they won they integrated the service (the 500s had provided a handful of extra journeys on the 663 route). Initially Transdev continued to run the short early and late journeys as 663s before renumbering them all as 500s. Then Transdev renumbered to the current B3.
Transdev currently hold the tender for most of the Otley local services and would First want to register some marginal at best services as commercial. The evening extensions of the 36 got axed a while back aside from those running in service to the Starbeck depot. The morning ones form the local service on the routes for a hour or two before the local buses wake up.
This is a very fair and reasoned assessment of the situation in West Yorkshire.After a trip to the Yorkshire homestead, I took the opportunity to head into downtown West Yorkshire and some areas that I’ve not visited for a few years. My last full day out was focussed on the southern part of the area. This time, I decided to aim for the more northern parts on a WY Dayrover. Hopefully, this provides a fair and unbiased view of the operators and operations in that area and is also of interest! Thought I'd post it here as it was more First orientated than any other operator
I started at the White Rose Centre, ignoring the fast services to Leeds in favour of the more leisurely First 65 through Holbeck. I’d hoped for a B7L but instead, it was a 2004 standard B7RLE in 66740, a recent transfer in from Halifax. It being a rush hour journey, passenger numbers were healthy as we carved our way through Beeston and Holbeck. The vehicle itself was generally clean but the lack of any mid-life refurb was evident with fraying and faded seats. There was also a complete absence of any internal advertising aside from a penalty notice warning sign. Into Leeds with plenty of new Streetdecks on view, which was impressive. The new green First livery is bright but then again, it’s all new. Not convinced on the coloured slashes, if only because there’s not really any indication on the vehicles as to what they signify. A newly repainted B7RLE looked very fresh but without any hint of an internal refurb whilst a familiar sight in ex Bristol B7L (66345), looking very tatty still in partial Barbie, suggests these might be going sooner rather than later? I decided on getting the 7S to Moortown, if only to experience some guided bus action on Scott Hall Road. The vehicle was one of the B5LHs with quite luxurious seating (39234). These carry a revised green version of Urban livery – again, these are nice vehicles with green credentials yet very little if anything to promote this! The short section of guided bus did seem a bit superfluous though I was heading out of the city.
After a coffee break in Moortown, I decided to head out and redefine my riding with a trip on the 36. Naturally, I read my little red book of Transdev’s #amazing comments, swore allegiance to Alex Hornby, and waited. 3628 duly arrived on a short working to Harrogate passing an Eclipse on an inbound working wearing a red livery inspired by the blood of a newly slaughtered lamb. Actually, my view is of being impressed but not amazed. This being a 2015 example, the interior wasn’t scruffy or even frayed but had the lived in look. The amount of legroom and space is impressive and you can see that they really are chasing the fare paying market, supported by a slow competing train service. However, I spied they were advertising the connectivity with the CityZap to York and Manchester – really, if you’re going to advertise it, then take it down when it’s no longer relevant. The best thing was the driver; in fact, most of the Transdev drivers were noticeably friendly in their approach (though I’m sure there are some miserable ones). I got off and then waited for the infrequent 923 to Otley, operated by one of the Keighley MPDs (717). This is a fast run and a 2004 MPD would usually fill me with dread. This was actually quite comfortable, very clean and well-presented internally, if a little dreary externally. There was a single non-standard seat cover though it was a close but not perfect match. I arrived in Otley and the bijou bus station which doesn’t seem to have changed much in 30 years? I made a quick swap back to First with a 2016 e400 (33486) for the X84 to Ilkley. Now, this is where I agree with Deerfold in that it does highlight how First and Transdev differ. Now the X84 will never be able to perform like the 36 but could it do better with the better marketing? The vehicle is good and actually had some decent internal branding but not up to the Transdev standard. Still, it was a nice trip up to Ilkley, being quicker than the parallel Transdev 62. Hence I was able to have a short break in Ilkley before getting onto the 62, operated by Eclipse 1847. This is a cracking route over to Keighley and the B7RLE is perhaps the best vehicle for it. Don’t know if I’d fancy it on a Versa or Streetlite. However, this was the most disappointing Transdev vehicle of the day. I know they’ve commence a refurb programme but this one was showing its age a bit. Also, a Metro advert proclaiming changes happening in December 2014 doesn’t show a proactive side. It wasn’t bad but it was a bit frayed at the seams so a bit less than amazing. Still, we had a good load as we arrived into Keighley bus station just before midday.
This was as much as I’d planned so I wondered where to go next? I confess that the last time I travelled to Keighley, I left on a First Calderline B10B Strider….. it was that long ago! A quick check and Hebden Bridge was duly advertised so I caught the Bronte bus. Now, this IS where Transdev have got it right. I think this was a former First route (500? – would be interested to know it’s history) and it’s a blinder. The vehicle was 453, a 2005 B7RLE and compared to the similar First vehicle earlier in the day, it was chalk and cheese. Carrying a dateless plate, you’d never know it wasn’t half its age. Tastefully refurbished and with comprehensive Stenning trademark internal branding, it was a comfortable ride out of Keighley and when it hit the hills, it climbed with power. The odd rattle and squeak perhaps indicated it wasn’t quite as young but that’s being picky. There was the tight loop through Oxenhope which was a bit of a squeak with an Eclipse and then the climb onto the top of the moors. Stunning in the sunshine, it’s a great ride that I’d recommend to anyone. Also a bit tight dropping into Hebden Bridge which is a town I’d never visited. Very quirky, with a female opera singer busking whilst I ate my jacket potato! The main route from Hebden Bridge is the Halifax route with a healthy 12 min headway. I expected another Eclipse but First Todmorden instead had a B9TL on there. I think 37129 was a recent Leeds exile. It was reasonably tidy despite a bit of window etching but would benefit from refurbishment. These routes form part of the Calder Connect brand with a green slash on the front of Urban livery but nowhere near as imposing or arresting as the green based Transdev or Leeds City liveries. I arrived into Halifax to see one of the Zest B7TLs looking a bit tired for something on a trunk service. I had a decision where to go to next and nearly headed out to Brighouse on the 549 (on a former Bristol B7L) but common sense dictated I headed towards Leeds, so it was time for an Arriva moment.
Now I don’t know the history of Halifax’s services over the last 25 years so be interested to know what has happened. The 255 is now the only Arriva service to service Halifax? I’m sure that there were more in the Yorkshire Woollen/early Arriva days? There is, of course, Yorkshire Tiger who are Arriva owned and seem to have carved a niche; is that from taking on the routes that First have deregistered over time? Certainly, it seems First are focussed only on the main routes now and aside from a few Streetlites, the fleet seems very middle aged in comparison to Leeds. I caught Arriva 1981, a 2017 e400. Now this vehicle seemed to sum up the confusion of Arriva UK Bus. Arriva Yorkshire is one of the better, stronger operations and this vehicle was nicely presented in the insipid corporate livery. However, it was apparently new in the stronger dark blue fronted Sapphire version. Internally, it had the old Max identity on the headrests. There wasn’t a scrap of promotion on the interior; it seems a business that doesn’t really know what it wants to be or how to look. The build quality, as with some ADL products, was also a bit iffy as we rattled and squeaked through places like Scholes on the way to Cleckheaton. Sadly, a tight connection wasn’t made as I saw what I think was a Pulsar leaving on the 200. Instead, I had 30 mins to kill in Cleckheaton. I remember the old bus station and I have to say that the PTE really does know how to overspecify a bus station (see also Ossett). A large saw tooth bus station, away from the centre of town, with limited usage so that the shop contained there is up for rent. Eventually, another 200 arrived and Cleck is obviously used for Heckmondwike driver changes as we swapped pilots and Arriva DB250 1604 was readied for the run to Morley. Now this was actually a very nicely presented vehicle internally, with clean bright moquette seats and a quality that reflects Arriva Yorkshire’s position as one of the better parts of the empire. The East Lancs body was also much better in terms of rattles than the e400 but lord, it struggled with every hill as it seemed to labour.
Nonetheless, we seemed to get to Morley on time so perhaps it was just more graceful! I decamped onto my final bus. Fittingly, it was another Eclipse. This was a First 66998, a long time Leeds bus with some good internal publicity (unlike 66740 as my first steed) and not carrying the now defunct Pulse brand. It was the 47 that heads to the White Rose Centre via Cottingley. I assume that this was once a more profitable and frequent service but like many routes to the old council estates, it is a shadow of what it once was as economic activity and benefit cuts have hit. There were few passengers as we made our way around the loop of the estate, stopping at the small precinct. I glanced out of the window to see a rather tired looking woman (mid 30s looking nearer mid 50s) decant a can of Pepsi into a bottle containing a clear liquid… nice
My overall impressions were that Transdev, First and Arriva operations in West Yorkshire are generally pretty decent. Clearly, First’s investment is centred on Leeds because of the quality framework there and that means Halifax (and the other areas) are relying on cascades. The new First Leeds livery is certainly an improvement over standard First and the tacky PULSE identity and I’d like to see it extended across the rest of West Yorkshire – a Yorkshire Rider for the 2020s! There are also services like the X84/5 that could better marketed – it isn’t bad now but could it be exploited more? Transdev’s image is in a state of flux especially in Keighley as the Hornby era refresh sits slightly uncomfortably alongside the now tired previous green and blue with the old Transdev identity still surprisingly much in evidence. They aren’t perfect nor amazing but I was impressed by the customer skills of the drivers and even their average “product” is still better than most. Arriva did seem to have a good operation with plenty of Max liveried routes and the Grand Yorkshire Connections. However, they seem to be struggling with the new identity and what Arriva actually wants to be. Is it quality, is it mass market, is it focussed on developing key routes or just a general provider? It seems all a bit unclear. The standards are better than First but it seems to be heading in the same direction.
I hope that this has been of interest and if you’re from the area, I’d be interested if my observations are typical and in the history of First’s retraction from Keighley (and if my recollection of more Arriva services in Halifax is right?). The northern and western edge of WY is glorious and I’d heartily recommend it. Oh, and sorry for writing so much
I wouldn't go so far as to say First have retracted from Keighley, as their only "traditional" involvement was on the Todmorden-Keighley and Halifax-Keighley services*. The former originated as a joint Todmorden JOC - Keighley-West Yorkshire Hebden Bridge-Todmorden service (KWY 19?, TJOC didn't number services). When TJOC merged with Halifax JOC in 1971 the service was extended to Todmorden (presumably for operational convenience from Todmorden depot), and continued much the same - bar renumbering - though the WYPTE years. Obviously at some points following deregulation the route was again cut back to Hebden Bridge and WYPTE's successors withdrew . . . and finally it has been incorporated into the Brontebus brand/network. The latter originated as part of the hourly YWD Ossett-Dewsbury-Brighouse-Elland Bridge-Halifax-Cullingworth-Keighley 2 (which was interworked between Halifax-Cullingworth with Hebble's hourly Halifax-Cullingworth-Bingley 2). For a brief period in 1970-71 both 2's were combined as a reduced hourly Ossett-Keighley/Bingley 2/2A. After the dismemberment of Hebble in spring 1971, the Halifax-Bingley/Keighley sections were transferred to Halifax JOC as 1/2 . . . but Halifax-Bingley only lasted a few months before all journeys were timetabled as 2 Halifax-Keighley. And that - except for renumbering as 502 under WYPTE - is how things stayed until deregulation.
On deregulation Yorkshire Rider linked the 15 min Halifax-Elland-Huddersfield service through to north Halifax as 502 (Halifax-Keighley, hourly), 503 (Halifax-Thornton-Bradford [a route briefly considered by BCT in the early 1970s], hourly), and 504 (Halifax-Illingworth, hourly). Subsequently the Huddersfield-Halifax (now ZEST) and Halifax-Bradford/Keighley/Illingworth sections were split . . . Halifax-Thornton-Bradford is no more, Halifax-Keighley has been much reduced, and the Halifax-Illingworth component been absorbed back into local routes.
*Firsts only other involvement in Keighley was on the main road Aire valley route for a short period after deregulation, when they extended from Bingley to run into Keighley . . . but this was very short lived.
I'm now too depressed to even think about the contraction of the ex-YWD/West Riding/Hebble services east of Halifax . . . for the time being.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Thanks - I do try to be balanced when I take myself out and about. Seemingly, Transdev and First stoke up the greatest level of partisanship and general ire on these forums (aside from Lothian) but I'm more interested in what it's like to be a general passenger (albeit with perhaps a bit more insight).
I know that First's involvement with Keighley was minimal so perhaps there may have been a better choice of word as retraction might suggest something more substantial. Thanks also for the detail on the routes - the idea of a Keighley to Ossett service seems very curious these days. I did think that Arriva's historic ex YWD services seemed to have reduced but didn't know if that was a perception thing on my part.
Yeah, it feels like the Arriva operation was really benefitting from a strong image with the various MAX services and branding; it now seems confused in comparison and the branding on the 254/5 is really low key, almost as an afterthought.
It's been about 18 months since I last had a trip out in West Yorkshire. In the late 1980s/early 1990s, it was a regular trip out for me. Oddly, I seemed to keep to the former NBC operations (WY, WR, YWD) rather than the former PTE ops. Still, it's good to get out and in the Otley - Keighley - Hebden Bridge - Halifax legs, think that's some of the best scenery in the North. Mind you, it's still interesting to hop on a bus and see places you'd never normally see like Cottingley.