Milano to Modane on 1st August

I am travelling from Luzern to Modane via Milan on 1st August, for the start of a 2-week hike in the southern French Alps. I already have a non-refundable ticket for the Milan-Paris TGV that leaves Milano Porta Garibaldi at 14:40 and arrives at Modane at 17:42.

Because of a landslide that happened yesterday evening between St. Jean de Maurienne and Modane, the line is now closed until 31st July. Even assuming the line reopens on 1st August, realistically how much chance is there of that TGV actually running? Presumably rolling stock and staff will be in the wrong places after a month with no service. It's the last connection of the day to Modane, and I cannot afford to be stuck on the Italian side at the last minute, as hotel/hut bookings are already made for the following 16 nights.

I would of course have the option of travelling via Geneva and Chambéry, then doing the last bit from St.Michel-Valloire by taxi if the line is still not open, but would my ticket be accepted on such a different alternative route?

1 August seems a random date for reopening. However, a quick Google brings up a bus from Bardonecchia at 19.00 M-F which would comfortably connect from Milan via Torino at 16.00. .
https://www.bardonecchia.it/come-muoversi-a-bardonecchia/linee-extraurbane/

Whether FS would insist on refunding your existing ticket and issuing a new one I can't say. I agree you'd be lucky to be allowed travel from Geneva on it.

Thanks for the link to the bus timetable - that would work as a last resort.

Having watched a couple of interviews with SNCF staff on French TV today, a reopening at the end of July looks far from certain. The engineer they interviewed was talking about possibly having to consolidate the mountainside above the track, and of "several weeks" closure. They should have a better idea tomorrow after the initial investigation up above the line is done.

I got my ticket over the counter at Luzern station, so I may just try to get a refund once SNCF has confirmed the duration of the closure. Presumably even a non-refundable ticket can be refunded if there are no trains at all to the destination station. Although I have a GA rail pass in Switzerland, I will be travelling with someone who has no reduction, so we should stand to lose about 200 € between us if we cannot get a refund, plus whatever it costs to rebook via Geneva.

Although the TGV might not be running at all if the landslip means it can't get beyond Modane once it's through the tunnel (and, as said, it might not be in the right place to run, anyway), there seems no reason why the internal Italian trains from Milan to Bardonecchia won't be running (or perhaps Turin-Bardonecchia, connecting from a Milan-Turin service), and they would surely honour your tickets as far as the border? And the journey time to the tunnel won't be much different, since the TGVs don't use the new High Speed line from Milan to Turin. And then there's the bus to get you across the border! (NB - although the TGV might be the last train connection from Milan to Modane, the internal trains run later.)

So the only issue is ensuring that you get a train in time to get the last bus. The first train from Milan to the border, after the time you'd have got the TGV, is the 1600 [NB from Centrale, nor Porta Garibaldi] which is due in before the bus goes. And depending on which Luzern train you're on, if you'd allowed some leeway for the Milan connection (as I imagine you would), then you might be in time for an earlier train to Bardonecchia - and might save time on changing stations in Milan too - and hence remove any risk of a late train arrival in Bardonecchia meaning you miss the last bus of the day.

That seems a more reliable and cheaper way of doing it than trying to get tickets rerouted to somewhere miles from where you want to be anyway.

I thought FS ran a local service - maybe three trains a day - between Torino Porta Nuova and Modane, but I can't seem to find it in the online timetables at the moment.

I’d be careful to use a bus timetable to travel in august in Italy. I’d double (or triple) check with at least the bus operator and possibly someone else on place, a local tourist office or something like that. It’s the holidays’ month there, rail and road services might be cancelled when you least expect it (had some bad experiences in the past).

newmilton said:

I thought FS ran a local service - maybe three trains a day - between Torino Porta Nuova and Modane, but I can't seem to find it in the online timetables at the moment.

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I think that only runs at weekends.

Alfie1014 said:

I think that only runs at weekends.

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Yes, as far as I've found - in practice, and from timetables now - on weekdays the TGVs are the ways through the tunnel; but at weekends, some of the Italian domestic trains to Bardonecchia are also extended through to Modane.

Incidentally, my experience of Italian buses has been good in recent years - they do tend to turn up! (Though maybe the high summer is different ... I mostly avoid the Italian heat at this time of year.) But even a taxi from Bardonecchia to Modane sounds a better bet than a different routing with a hassle to get ticket exchange/acceptance, with a much longer(?) taxi ride needed.

Thanks everyone, lots of good advice. I will look at all the options in detail.

in_luzern said:

Thanks everyone, lots of good advice. I will look at all the options in detail.

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Hi again - do let us know what happens in the end, and whether you're able to do the journey with your existing tickets!

Report via Drehscheibe-online that SNCF are saying closed till 15 August. Suggestion that there will be a RRB Chambery-Turin.
So its Plan B anyway.

AlbertBeale said:

Hi again - do let us know what happens in the end, and whether you're able to do the journey with your existing tickets!

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I went to the station this evening to see what they would suggest. Going via Geneva seems to be the fastest option (last 40 minutes from St. Jean de Maurienne by bus), and refunding our Milano-Modane tickets is not a problem.

The difficult bit is the EC between Arth-Goldau and Milano Centrale: the system considers this leg and the Milano-Modane leg to be two independent journeys (even though I bought the tickets together - i assume this is because it's different companies ?), and therefore offers no option of refunding this part. Situation not helped by the lack of information on the SNCF website. The person to whom i spoke suggested that I come back closer to my date of travel, as with more concrete information available it may be possible to refund the complete cost.

Travelled the Turin/Chambery route today (friday).

The plan was to go Turin-Chambery-Lyon, then a couple of hours in Lyon before taking the direct eurostar to St Pancras. However, I'm writing this from a hotel in Paris, paid for by SNCF.

We showed up at Turin to find the mid morning TGV to Paris cancelled. It wasn't until later in the day that we found out the landslide situation had already been going on for several days. You wouldn't have thought that from the shambolic way alternative transport was provided though. There was no obvious info at the station in Turin about what was happening. The Trenitalia office was completely unhelpful, simply telling us to look for someone with an SNCF jacket on. We found them, and they told us there was a replacement bus at 1pm, and that we could get to Paris by 8 (just about in time for the last eurostar). Both those pieces of info turned out to be wrong. The bus actually left half an hour earlier than that (luckily we spotted this) and took us a far as St. Jean de Maurienne.

When we got there, again there was no obvious information as to what was arranged. It gradually became clear that a TGV to Paris would depart after approx . 2.5 hours wait. It also became clear that there would be no chance of making the last Eurostar.

As our SNCF ticket was to Lyon we asked if we could travel there, and take a Eurostar connection in the morning. We were told that if we did that then SNCF would not help us and that it would not be possible to rearrange onwards tickets at Lyon. We were told our only option was to wait for the Paris TGV, and accommodation and replacement eurostar tickets would be sorted out when we arrived at Gare de Lyon. The instruction that we must not travel via Lyon seemed dubious to me, and I wished I had better knowledge of the CIV rules. Anyway we decided to do what we were told and head for Paris.

It has to be said that once we found the relevant office at G.d.Lyon, a hotel room and new eurostar ticket were sorted quite efficiently. But all the way through the journey, the way information was (not) supplied was terrible. There was no proactive attempt on the train to check who had onward connections and so on. I do a fair bit of European rail travel, and was travelling with someone who speaks French so for us it was an inconvenience rather than a trauma - but for anyone unfamiliar with things it must have been completely baffling and rather stressful. No-one actually knew whether they had a room for the night in Paris until around 10pm.

I'm always trying to encourage people to travel overland rather than fly - but it's like fighting a losing battle when you see the hopeless way in which disruption is dealt with, sometimes. Seemed to me that the way things panned out today was all to do with what was least difficult for the train operators concerned, and nothing to do with making sure that passengers get where they need to in the least stressful and most efficient way that's reasonably possible.

As far as I can see, it would have been possible, leaving from Turin half an hour after our booked train departure time, for us to have gone via Milan and Geneva, and get to Paris well in time for the last Eurostar to London. No buses, no hanging around for hours, no need for a hotel room in Paris, and an eventual delay of an hour or two to our arrival rather than the 12+ hours it's going to be. But the system was not coordinated enough to make this happen.

To be fair, Turin-Milan-Geneva-Paris is a massive detour (can't think of a UK equivalent, maybe London-Newcastle via Southampton and Carlisle?) involving two different countries' national operators, one of which SNCF has a difficult relationship with, so I wouldn't even consider itcan option.

But the rail replacement coaches should be properly organised by now.

30907 said:

To be fair, Turin-Milan-Geneva-Paris is a massive detour (can't think of a UK equivalent, maybe London-Newcastle via Southampton and Carlisle?) involving two different countries' national operators, one of which SNCF has a difficult relationship with, so I wouldn't even consider itcan option.

But the rail replacement coaches should be properly organised by now.

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It's an 8-10 hour journey compared to 6 hours... which is a bit of a detour for sure, but better than the 11.5 hours it effectively took us!

Is the difficult relationship between SNCF and Trenitalia? I don't know the history on that but that's the point really... long distance rail travel in Europe can't function properly if bickering between operators gets in the way. I believe that the EU are looking at means of enforcing better compensation to passengers in the event of disruption - maybe the economics resulting from that could change things - who knows.

BRX said:

It's an 8-10 hour journey compared to 6 hours... which is a bit of a detour for sure, but better than the 11.5 hours it effectively took us!

Is the difficult relationship between SNCF and Trenitalia? I don't know the history on that but that's the point really... long distance rail travel in Europe can't function properly if bickering between operators gets in the way. I believe that the EU are looking at means of enforcing better compensation to passengers in the event of disruption - maybe the economics resulting from that could change things - who knows.

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I agree it's a possible route though with a very tight conection in Geneva, and much slower than a properly organised coach would have been. The info on the SNCF website is rubbish.
IIRC SNCF operate the Milan TGVs independently of TI as open access (as do Thello in France) so TI would have wanted you to pay the new fare while SNCF would have refunded you.

The appalling response of SNCF to this disruption is just what I encountered last week. I had booked on the TGV from Torino to Paris (thankfully via Loco2 and not direct, who at least had the courtesy to send me an email albeit with less than two days warning). I don't know if SNCF would have ever got round to letting me know before I turned up at the station. Loco2's suggestion was to ask SNCF staff at the station about alternative arrangements; whatever they were would have meant me losing my Eurostar connection and onward train from Euston.
I suppose SNCF are within their legal rights not to provide compensation for inconvenience nor for the additional expense of rebooking by another route. I am sure even budget airlines would do better. Although they 'generously' refunded my fare without any cancellation fee, the disparity between the cheap advance fare and the cost of one at a day's notice, meant it cost me more than double.
Fortunately I rebooked via Milano/Bern (Trenitalia and then SNCF's Lyria TGV) and had a very pleasant journey. I'm just grateful there were no problems with the TGV as I expect the same 'take it or leave it' attitude would have prevailed.
(I was actually starting my journey in Genova so I didn't have to double back from Torino: just a different side of the same triangle.)

In retrospect I think that Eurostar also gave me incorrect advice: on finding out about the delay, I asked them (via twitter DM) whether, if we arrived at Lyon too late to make our Eurostar connection, we would be able to take a train the next morning (or whether we could go to Paris and take a Eurostar from there). The reply was that because the connecting service wasn't part of our Eurostar ticket, we would need to buy a new ticket and were directed towards the way to check the prices.

But both Eurostar and SNCF are members of railteam, which as I understand it means that had we showed up at Lyon, we should have been allowed simply to board the next Eurostar service (which would have been the next day).

SNCF's advice at that point was that if we showed up at Lyon they would not be able to help us - which I think was also incorrect.

As it panned out, following the SNCF advice to go to Paris was the right thing to do as they sorted a hotel as well as making arrangements for us to take a Eurostar.

But as I see it, we were given wrong information by both companies. I think I might write to Railteam to see what they have to say.

BRX said:

As it panned out, following the SNCF advice to go to Paris was the right thing to do as they sorted a hotel as well as making arrangements for us to take a Eurostar.

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That is interesting. I didn't pursue the matter with SNCF, having dealt with Loco2, but they seemed pretty clear that the most I could expect was a full refund (which I got straight away to be fair). It was only because I was offered a bed for the night by a friend in Milan that I escaped an additional €100 hotel bill.

David Emmott said:

That is interesting. I didn't pursue the matter with SNCF, having dealt with Loco2, but they seemed pretty clear that the most I could expect was a full refund (which I got straight away to be fair). It was only because I was offered a bed for the night by a friend in Milan that I escaped an additional €100 hotel bill.

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100 Euro in Milan will only get you a hostel when there's a 'Fiera' (trade fair) on! It might get you a 2-3 star at normal times. But well done.

David Emmott said:

That is interesting. I didn't pursue the matter with SNCF, having dealt with Loco2, but they seemed pretty clear that the most I could expect was a full refund (which I got straight away to be fair). It was only because I was offered a bed for the night by a friend in Milan that I escaped an additional €100 hotel bill.

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When it was initially suggested that SNCF would sort a hotel for us (this was info given by ticket office staff at the small station in the alps where the bus delivered us) I was a bit sceptical that it would really happen.

But when we got to Gare d Lyon, it was all arranged very efficiently and without question. In complete contrast to the shambolic operation to get us from Turin to France.

As far as I can make out, by giving us the hotel (and delivering us to Paris instead of Lyon as per our ticket), they went beyond what they were technically obliged to do. I think we benefitted from their bureaucratic confusion, rather than generosity, though!

BRX said:

In retrospect I think that Eurostar also gave me incorrect advice: on finding out about the delay, I asked them (via twitter DM) whether, if we arrived at Lyon too late to make our Eurostar connection, we would be able to take a train the next morning (or whether we could go to Paris and take a Eurostar from there). The reply was that because the connecting service wasn't part of our Eurostar ticket, we would need to buy a new ticket and were directed towards the way to check the prices.

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Eurostar are gouging rotters. They have a £150 hotel reimbursement limit but didn't tell me that when they said to book a hotel myself and claim back, else I'd have to queue at St Pancras and might not get a room. I didn't take the pee, but a hotel room within walking distance (because €* said it's hotel or taxi not both) with check-in still open at 1am on a summer Saturday could not be found for that.

Good luck with any complaints you make.

As a contrast, I've travelled on the Turin-Modane-Paris line during a previous landslip and it was only a 90-120 minute delay. The bus departures in Italy were chaotic with too few SNCF staff trying to direct people and no help from the station operators but everything else worked well except for some minor problem with the card machine at the buffet. It's disappointing to hear it's not that good this time.

ashkeba said:

Eurostar are gouging rotters. They have a £150 hotel reimbursement limit but didn't tell me that when they said to book a hotel myself and claim back, else I'd have to queue at St Pancras and might not get a room. I didn't take the pee, but a hotel room within walking distance (because €* said it's hotel or taxi not both) with check-in still open at 1am on a summer Saturday could not be found for that.

Good luck with any complaints you make.

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I've raised it with them in the meantime. They essentially accepted I had been given the wrong advice (they and SNCF are both part of Railteam) - we should have been able to get on the next day's Eurostar without extra charge - but beyond saying they would "pass on some feedback to the relevant staff" that was it. It doesn't seem worth pursuing further; there's no specific expense to claim against them, it's just that their wrong advice resulted us in choosing an option that would not have been our preferred one.

The local newspaper "Le Dauphiné" is now saying that the line may reopen on 26th July, although this is dependent on how successful the engineers are in removing the remaining unstable rock up above the track.

https://www.ledauphine.com/savoie/2...viaire-chambery-modane-rouverte-le-26-juillet

According to the same source as above, the line will reopen tomorrow, Tuesday 23 July, so my problem turns out not to be a problem after all

The SNCF website is now showing the TGVs on this route as bookable again, whereas until today all trains before mid-August were showing as "fully booked".