Alas, that's very patchy, depending on which part of this sceptered isle you're referring to.
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Things UK railways get right compared to other countries
- Thread starter DynamicSpirit
- Start date
- Status
Alas, that's very patchy, depending on which part of this sceptered isle you're referring to.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Sure, bi-modes have been around for a while. But the UK has really embraced the technology recently which is nice. We could use some here in Sweden to reduce diesel under the wires or having to change trains along the route (like Östersund-Trondheim).
My experiences with british trains are mostly from Scotland and a bit from southern England (the GWR-area).
Yes, it's the middle bit where the problem is most acute.
The old Western Region seems to have done better with keeping and maintaining station buildings.
axlecounter
Member
Railway staff - Guards and Drivers - working conditions seem to be very much better than what we have here and in other mainland countries, although maybe not the best. This for TOC staff, freights are a different kind everywhere and hardly comparable.
People have mentioned various aspects of ticketing but I don't think anyone has explicitly touched on the through-ticketing aspect - that you can buy one ticket from anywhere to anywhere else. That is not always the case in many other countries where things can get complicated across service types.
I would also agree with the people mentioning frequency, particularly for smaller rural stations - one train an hour is quite a poor service in many parts of the UK and makes a place feel like a backwater, but for many rural routes in other countries it is actually quite good. In Belgium some services that are branded as "S-Train" and billed as a sort of RER network are once every two hours, even to small towns or large villages. I've also often been surprised by how infrequent German 'S-Bahn' networks are as well - two trains an hour is not uncommon at all in my experience.
Another thing I don't think has been mentioned yet is direct services to smaller towns, at least to London. Many countries on the continent rely much more heavily on passengers changing trains at hubs - you wouldn't get a situation like in the UK where a town like Newton Abbot (population 25,000) has a regular direct service to the capital nearly 200 miles away. This could be seen as a bad thing or a good thing - it slows down intercity services and changing trains isn't that bad - but some people probably like it.
There are of course many things that other countries do better than the UK but that's for another thread.
I would also agree with the people mentioning frequency, particularly for smaller rural stations - one train an hour is quite a poor service in many parts of the UK and makes a place feel like a backwater, but for many rural routes in other countries it is actually quite good. In Belgium some services that are branded as "S-Train" and billed as a sort of RER network are once every two hours, even to small towns or large villages. I've also often been surprised by how infrequent German 'S-Bahn' networks are as well - two trains an hour is not uncommon at all in my experience.
Another thing I don't think has been mentioned yet is direct services to smaller towns, at least to London. Many countries on the continent rely much more heavily on passengers changing trains at hubs - you wouldn't get a situation like in the UK where a town like Newton Abbot (population 25,000) has a regular direct service to the capital nearly 200 miles away. This could be seen as a bad thing or a good thing - it slows down intercity services and changing trains isn't that bad - but some people probably like it.
There are of course many things that other countries do better than the UK but that's for another thread.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Yes, the UK does seem to go for that sort of model - "London terminal fast to X then all stations to Y" is an extremely common service model - there are variants of it all over the place. Whereas DB would probably run the GWR Penzance calling at more stations between Reading and Exeter but probably missing out the majority of the Cornish stations, with a 2-hourly RE connection serving those.
That model also makes good use of track capacity - you send the fast out then the "all stations to X" stopper, which also means that by the time you get to X the following fast has pretty much caught up, allowing a good connection from the stopper onto it for those wishing to go further. The DB model requires either 4 tracks or a lot of loops (they tend to go for the latter).
Last edited:
cactustwirly
Established Member
I guess with the Cornish services, the main constraint is track capacity and lack of DMUs, hence the Intercity services call to give the Cornish stations an hourly service.
Also the stations between Reading and Taunton aren't that large, hence a bi hourly semi fast service to Exeter/Paignton is probably adequate rather than adding stops to the Plymouth/Penzance services
Yes, I think there's something to be said for the traditional "InterCity" product being a mixture of very fast, and not so fast expresses, rather than being pure city to city expresses. It's probably helped to keep the county towns and shires more engaged with the railway than would otherwise have been the case.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Agreed, and I am actually fairly concerned about the proposals to remove direct London services from Lancaster, Oxenholme and Penrith once HS2 opens for that sort of reason. I'd actually rather we ran some fast to Preston (maybe calling at Crewe for connectivity) but then called everything at all stations between there and Carlisle, to be honest.
Yes, I agree with all of that.
There'll be two routes from Crewe to London by then, so surely they can get an express to Lancaster and the Lake District along one of them.
Perhaps not as important as other aspects, but graffiti prevention and removal seems to be much better in the UK.
As we all know, in many continental European countries its quite common to see graffiti on trains, inside and out, and covering the windows. But here, its quite surprising seeing graffiti on trains. There was lots of pointing and puzzled faces with a tagged Southeastern Class 395 'Javelin' train a few weeks back. When I see a badly tagged UK train, I presume its probably dealt with as soon as time/staff are available.
Our security is probably better (a lot more of our railway is fenced off), and graffiti 'artistry' isn't quite as popular here. Lets hope it stays that way! (there seems to be more people who think graffiti tagging is 'art' and 'freedom of speech').
As we all know, in many continental European countries its quite common to see graffiti on trains, inside and out, and covering the windows. But here, its quite surprising seeing graffiti on trains. There was lots of pointing and puzzled faces with a tagged Southeastern Class 395 'Javelin' train a few weeks back. When I see a badly tagged UK train, I presume its probably dealt with as soon as time/staff are available.
Our security is probably better (a lot more of our railway is fenced off), and graffiti 'artistry' isn't quite as popular here. Lets hope it stays that way! (there seems to be more people who think graffiti tagging is 'art' and 'freedom of speech').
AKN runs with a mix of curious looking high-floor box shaped VTA trains and newer Alstom Coradia LINT these days. The through service to Hamburg is limited these days- and the one I saw powered out down the main S-Bahn with engines rumbling, so I'm unsure on whether bi-mode is bothered with, unless it happens much closer to the centre (where fumes etc may become an issue).
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's the VTA that is the one I'm referring - half way between a Hamburg DT2/DT3 EMU, a bogied Pacer and a Class 230. The 230 is probably the closest thing we have to it.
I'd expect they would go onto third rail before entering the S-Bahn tunnels, unless they now run into the main station "open" S-Bahn platforms instead. The time I used one it ran as an EMU once on the third rail and ran into the tunnel.
Delay compensation in the UK seems to be light years ahead of the Continent (or at least DB). Last year a group of us were on a through ticket from London to Berlin and, due to the legendary unreliability of the ICE from Brussels to Cologne, we missed a connection so had to wait for the next one an hour later. That later service was itself delayed on route and in the end I think we must have been around ninety minutes later than booked.
The UK equivalent of the ticket we held would have been an Advance so under delay repay for that delay we'd have got 100% of the ticket back. Instead I think we got 25% back. Which is not to be sniffed at but one heck of a difference to getting a free trip!
Though to be fair to DB not only did the ticket office at Cologne endorse our tickets without quibble they even arranged fresh seat reservations for us! Indeed the delay in the clerk speaking after I'd explained the problem made me nervous that we were about to be denied travel for some reason instead she was doing her best to find seats for us together on a busy train!! She then pointed us to the very comfortable 1st class lounge to wait for our train. So 10/10 for how the delay was handled by the DB staff.
The UK equivalent of the ticket we held would have been an Advance so under delay repay for that delay we'd have got 100% of the ticket back. Instead I think we got 25% back. Which is not to be sniffed at but one heck of a difference to getting a free trip!
Though to be fair to DB not only did the ticket office at Cologne endorse our tickets without quibble they even arranged fresh seat reservations for us! Indeed the delay in the clerk speaking after I'd explained the problem made me nervous that we were about to be denied travel for some reason instead she was doing her best to find seats for us together on a busy train!! She then pointed us to the very comfortable 1st class lounge to wait for our train. So 10/10 for how the delay was handled by the DB staff.
The latest Streckennetz doesn't include Hamburg itself at all- so perhaps it's been finished. It was at Eidelstedt that I saw a VTA power away on diesel though- they're pretty entertaining units!
While written from a non-railway perspective, an interesting (?) piece at http://www.progressivepulse.org/society/modernising-in-the-neoliberal-way ...
U-Bahnfreund
Member
The timetable lists two morning trains to Hamburg Hbf (https://www.akn.de/fahrplaene.html?...plaene/a1/AKN_Fahrplan_A1_2018-2019_WEB 2.pdf) and this Youtube documentary worth watching shows the trains using the third rail in 2017 (
Italy: on a recent journey from Genova to Pisa which was delayed by just short of an hour, rather than a direct partial refund in compensation I was offered a voucher towards the cost of my next ticket. Since I didn't envisage any further long-distance journeys apart from what I had already booked, I didn't bother to claim it. I think most TOCs here would handle that differently.
Also in Italy, some stations are splendid both architecturally and in the way they are maintained. But many are not: flaking concrete, overgrown platforms, generally dirty and run down. (an exception to this seems to be the Milan area: most suburban stations are clean, modern and spacious.) Many stations don't announce their own identity by means of name boards on the platforms (there will probably, but not invariably, be one large one on the station building but nothing further down the - invariably long - platforms). There does seem to be a programme of installing lifts to the subways in most major stations, but frequently passengers have to struggle up and down steps with heavy luggage. Also onto the trains: some local trains now have step-free access but most Intercity and Frecce have steep steps up from the platform.
The need to 'convalidare' (= French composter) tickets seems a nuisance to us but I can see the point of it and you soon get used to it. It is rather amusing though that a ticket even for a local journey of a couple of kilometers often comes on a large cardboard document bigger than a normal cheque.
France: I have a particular beef with SNCF because of a recent cancellation. The TGV I was due to catch from Torino to Paris was cancelled, along with others on that route, owing to a landslip. This happened I believe some time early last week, but I was only informed about it by email from Loco2 on Saturday afternoon last less than two days before I was due to travel. Nothing directly from SNCF themselves; nothing (that I could find) on their website, either to apologise, to explain, to suggest alternative arrangements. The best offer seemed to be, either turn up at the station (which of course was in Italy, so would SNCF even have a presence there?) and ask; or to claim a refund and rebook by a different route. The refund was purely the fare that I had paid: no compensation for the additional expense and inconvenience. It seemed a very off-hand and condescending attitude to the customer.
TGVs are indeed impressive (I took the Lyria from Bern to Paris in the end) but not always as fast as one might imagine. There is a lot of running on conventional lines and this one didn't get up speed until after Dijon. And frequency is poor by British standards. Apart from the TGV network, much of the French system seems to suffer from underinvestment and very patchy timetables especially on rural lines even between quite large towns.
Switzerland: thanks to my diversion I enjoyed a glimpse of the famed Swiss system. The Trenitalia Eurocity express I got from Milan arrived in Bern 4 minutes late, which would have counted as practically early in Italy or the UK and would not have prompted the apology we got (presumably from SBB staff and not Trenitalia!) The stations en route clearly were geared up for easy interchange between different trains and different systems (metre gauge lines for example) as well as trams and buses. So I can't think of anything that the UK does better than the Swiss in this respect.
Also in Italy, some stations are splendid both architecturally and in the way they are maintained. But many are not: flaking concrete, overgrown platforms, generally dirty and run down. (an exception to this seems to be the Milan area: most suburban stations are clean, modern and spacious.) Many stations don't announce their own identity by means of name boards on the platforms (there will probably, but not invariably, be one large one on the station building but nothing further down the - invariably long - platforms). There does seem to be a programme of installing lifts to the subways in most major stations, but frequently passengers have to struggle up and down steps with heavy luggage. Also onto the trains: some local trains now have step-free access but most Intercity and Frecce have steep steps up from the platform.
The need to 'convalidare' (= French composter) tickets seems a nuisance to us but I can see the point of it and you soon get used to it. It is rather amusing though that a ticket even for a local journey of a couple of kilometers often comes on a large cardboard document bigger than a normal cheque.
France: I have a particular beef with SNCF because of a recent cancellation. The TGV I was due to catch from Torino to Paris was cancelled, along with others on that route, owing to a landslip. This happened I believe some time early last week, but I was only informed about it by email from Loco2 on Saturday afternoon last less than two days before I was due to travel. Nothing directly from SNCF themselves; nothing (that I could find) on their website, either to apologise, to explain, to suggest alternative arrangements. The best offer seemed to be, either turn up at the station (which of course was in Italy, so would SNCF even have a presence there?) and ask; or to claim a refund and rebook by a different route. The refund was purely the fare that I had paid: no compensation for the additional expense and inconvenience. It seemed a very off-hand and condescending attitude to the customer.
TGVs are indeed impressive (I took the Lyria from Bern to Paris in the end) but not always as fast as one might imagine. There is a lot of running on conventional lines and this one didn't get up speed until after Dijon. And frequency is poor by British standards. Apart from the TGV network, much of the French system seems to suffer from underinvestment and very patchy timetables especially on rural lines even between quite large towns.
Switzerland: thanks to my diversion I enjoyed a glimpse of the famed Swiss system. The Trenitalia Eurocity express I got from Milan arrived in Bern 4 minutes late, which would have counted as practically early in Italy or the UK and would not have prompted the apology we got (presumably from SBB staff and not Trenitalia!) The stations en route clearly were geared up for easy interchange between different trains and different systems (metre gauge lines for example) as well as trams and buses. So I can't think of anything that the UK does better than the Swiss in this respect.
Ah yes. When I was reading it earlier my eyes were fixed to the blue "connections" bit at the bottom for the S1 and S3. Glad to see it's still going.
philabos
Member
As already mentioned, population and geography make the UK ideal for railways.
In the US, we have great distances that frankly are ideal for air.
The northeast does have density, and is more closely aligned with the U.K.
Even there, everything you have is far better, from frequency to stations, equipment and staff.
You also do infrastructure far better by comparison, despite delays and problems .
It has always amazed me how people from the UK complain about their railways. Although some is surely justified, rarely if ever a kind word.
In the US, we have great distances that frankly are ideal for air.
The northeast does have density, and is more closely aligned with the U.K.
Even there, everything you have is far better, from frequency to stations, equipment and staff.
You also do infrastructure far better by comparison, despite delays and problems .
It has always amazed me how people from the UK complain about their railways. Although some is surely justified, rarely if ever a kind word.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The Swiss system is quite Spartan - I think UK trains are better-appointed inside - UK seating is certainly better. Though Nederlandse Spoorwegen is the *definition* of Spartan.
Interestingly the dark blue vehicle ends Northern are using reminds me of the Swiss EW IV hauled coaches.
I've always thought SBB feels like a solid piece of infrastructure (some bits of which happen to move up and down other bits) rather than a business.
AlexNL
Established Member
- Joined
- 19 Dec 2014
- Messages
- 1,683
NS focus on frequency, offering good connections, and well-equipped and comfortable stations. There are plenty of retail facilities at many stations (even small ones) which pretty much negates the need to provide on-train retail facilities.
The trains themselves are... a mixed bag. The Sprinter family of trains is rather spartan indeed, especially SGM and SLT. They are people movers first and foremost, and SLT is the worst of that. More attention to making the trains attractive has been given to the FLIRT and SNG fleets, but they are still people movers first and foremost.
The intercity fleet is better, although there is a remarkable difference between unrefurbished VIRM trainsets and the rest of the IC fleet. Personally I would not call our ICM trains spartan. The only thing I really miss in our IC trains are proper tables at bays of 4. The little wall-mounted 'table' you get is absolute rubbish.
Quiet coaches. In Denmark this apparently means "no talking"! Also in Denmark, I saw that the ticket office at Roskilde was open only between 0900 and 1600 on Mondays to Fridays. This is a very busy station serving a historic city with a population of some 48,000, 30 km west of Copenhagen. There are ticket machines and I assume they offer the full range of tickets, but there was no visible station staff in the evenings or presumably at weekends. The same is true in Sweden - only the stations in very large towns have ticket offices at all.
I agree about graffiti on passenger stock - not a big problem in UK, I suppose because of securely fenced depots. Slovenia was particularly bad a few years ago.
I agree about graffiti on passenger stock - not a big problem in UK, I suppose because of securely fenced depots. Slovenia was particularly bad a few years ago.
Strange how most other countries seem to cope fine without Quiet Coaches (I say having witnessed another Quiet Coach 'Rage' incident the other day directed at another passenger).
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I have certainly told people forcefully to turn music/devices down or get out and sit elsewhere. After brief answering back they've always realised their error and either turned the device off or moved.
I'm supportive of the Danish approach - if we're going to have it, let's have it library-quiet. If you want to make noise, there are loads of other coaches.
However, no devices of any kind should ever be played deliberately out loud on board a train in any coach. Use headphones. The only sound acceptable out loud is conversation.
I still don't understand why we apparently need them. A solution to a minor problem in the 1990s. (I agree about being considerate with a noise generation in the train as a whole).
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I think they probably cause more issues than they solve, if for no other reason than they effectively designate the other coaches as "noisy coaches" rather than the idea that everyone should be considerate and reasonably subdued in all of them.
The mobile phone problem is one that is much less of an issue now because most people aren't making calls with their phones (I very rarely make or receive calls on mine), and curiously a FaceTime call made on speaker is less annoying than one side of a phone call, being basically the same as a conversation next to you - I think the brain finds half a conversation particularly frustrating.
OTOH playing music or TV shows out loud is very annoying and I would like to see some Byelaw prosecutions "pour encourager les autres" on this matter, so bad it has got. Use headphones, with a splitter if the whole family wants to watch. I also think staff need to tell people to stop it even if nobody complains, as it is certain that if there's another person in the coach it'll be annoying someone.
paddington
Member
- Joined
- 19 Feb 2013
- Messages
- 964
My main gripe in Switzerland is that stations are often full of smokers who are impossible to avoid. I feel that there are fewer smokers in UK stations but this may be because a lot of them stay out of the way, the only place you encounter smokers is at the entrances. On UK station platforms if they dare to light up, smokers do tend to walk to one of the far ends, whereas they don't seem to care in Switzerland, I guess because it is probably not illegal.
Also shorter journeys can be hideously expensive. I had to pay 30 francs for a single recently. A Saver Day Pass would have been only 52 francs, less than double the price but maybe an increase of a thousandfold in validity (and no peak restrictions too), unfortunately I only needed to take that single journey.
In Denmark I think most residents use the Rejsekort national smartcard which reduces the need for ticket offices.
In Sweden, I was told that buying SJ tickets from a ticket office incurs a 100kr fee.
So only 15 CHF with a Half Fare Card. Obviously that's not much help for tourists, but the Swiss rail network is primarily for Swiss residents. Tourists are mostly directed to the Swiss Travel Pass. There is a one month Half Fare Card for non-Swiss but that is not much cheaper than a whole year one.
Last edited:
- Status