Petition to bring back the buffet on GWR

Bletchleyite · 8 Jul 2019

RLBH said:
The usual way of doing it is, I believe, 'Would you prefer a walk-up buffet or at-seat service', worded in a way that the user imagines at-seat service to be something akin to the First Class offering, but which the operator is free to interpret as a minimum-wage subcontract worker doling out coffee and beer at equal temperatures.

The thing is I'd be absolutely fine with a trolley service such as that provided on TPE or ScotRail's non-HST services - the trolley typically passes about once an hour which is about right to supply me with cups of tea and chocolate bars.

The thing is that the trolley service on GWR is inferior to even the most basic regional service that has one. Not being served even once (OK, I went and got a can of Coke once I worked out where he was holed up) on a lightly-loaded 5.5 hour journey is just unacceptable. Even the guard didn't seem particularly impressed that he hadn't been through, and people were quite vocally asking and complaining about it (in between mumbles about the new trains being rubbish and the seats being hard, of which there were many).

RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite · 8 Jul 2019

Bromley boy said:
Is there anything in the franchise agreement that actually compels GWR to provide a catering trolley?

Otherwise it might well make more commercial sense for them to bin the trolley service altogether and just stick with the kitchen/fine dining.

And not provide anything in Standard? Or you mean a counter service? I'd be fine with the latter.

Even the old Czech restaurant cars would do you a coffee. I once bought one from the door of the kitchen, they boiled a kettle on the gas stove to make it!

broadgage · 8 Jul 2019

Those who admire IETs kept saying that a trolley is so much better than a buffet, I now await similar claims that a static trolley is even better !

Bletchleyite · 8 Jul 2019

broadgage said:
Those who admire IETs kept saying that a trolley is so much better than a buffet, I now await similar claims that a static trolley is even better !

It would again be absolutely fine if they built a proper trolley dock (such as the ones you used to get on the Brighton Express 319s) and told people where it was (signage and announcements). Indeed, that would probably be the cheapest way to sort the situation out, and could be done on a modular basis not requiring much more than removing a few rows of seats and screwing a modular counter with space for a trolley to the seat tracks in their place.

The problem at the moment is that they are not doing anything right with regard to catering.

This is the 319 trolley dock area (the trolley used to sit behind the pillar which contains the 25kV feed - I think those two seats were added later):

Bromley boy · 8 Jul 2019

Bletchleyite said:
And not provide anything in Standard? Or you mean a counter service? I'd be fine with the latter.

Even the old Czech restaurant cars would do you a coffee. I once bought one from the door of the kitchen, they boiled a kettle on the gas stove to make it!

Perhaps binning it all together might be the ultimate game plan, at least on the London - Bristol services. Then you’d have the choice of either a full meal from the kitchen* or buying your own supplies before travelling.

I realise discussing sub-iron-curtain levels of onboard catering in relation to brand new trains isn’t exactly progress!

But it’s pretty clear that the trolley services are not fit for purpose and don’t turn a profit, which is what makes me wonder whether the TOC is compelled to provide them as opposed to doing voluntarily.

*IIRC standard class passengers can use the first class dining facilities so long as they return to their standard class seats after the meal.

HantsExile · 8 Jul 2019

Bletchleyite said:
The thing is I'd be absolutely fine with a trolley service such as that provided on TPE or ScotRail's non-HST services - the trolley typically passes about once an hour which is about right to supply me with cups of tea and chocolate bars.

The thing is that the trolley service on GWR is inferior to even the most basic regional service that has one. Not being served even once (OK, I went and got a can of Coke once I worked out where he was holed up) on a lightly-loaded 5.5 hour journey is just unacceptable. Even the guard didn't seem particularly impressed that he hadn't been through, and people were quite vocally asking and complaining about it (in between mumbles about the new trains being rubbish and the seats being hard, of which there were many).

I did a ScotRail 'Spirit of Scotland' trip last autumn, travelling virtually the whole Scottish system. I was very impressed that there was a trolley service on virtually every train (including the remotest sections), making frequent passes through the train and staffed by a (usually) cheery attendant. The range of food and drink on offer was limited but adequate - and very welcome.

Bletchleyite · 8 Jul 2019

Bromley boy said:
Perhaps binning it all together might be the ultimate game plan, at least on the London - Bristol services. Then you’d have the choice of either a full meal from the kitchen* or buying your own supplies before travelling.

I would bet my entire worth that that is not what they are trying to achieve.

I realise discussing sub-iron-curtain levels of onboard catering in relation to brand new trains isn’t exactly progress!

As noted the old-style Eastern European restaurant cars would happily flog you a coffee, made using a freshly boiled kettle from the stove! And in Russia/China if you take your own granules/tea bags it's free. Yes, even on the Chinese high speed kit!

(Maybe they should actually consider just providing a free "water cooler" style thing for hot and cold water every couple of coaches - seems to work for the Chinese and Russians?)

But it’s pretty clear that the trolley services are not fit for purpose and don’t turn a profit, which is what makes me wonder whether the TOC is compelled to provide them as opposed to doing voluntarily.

*IIRC standard class passengers can use the first class dining facilities so long as they return to their standard class seats after the meal.

I didn't want to dine, I just wanted 3-4 cups of tea in a 5.5 hour journey.

Bletchleyite · 8 Jul 2019

HantsExile said:
I did a ScotRail 'Spirit of Scotland' trip last autumn, travelling virtually the whole Scottish system. I was very impressed that there was a trolley service on virtually every train (including the remotest sections), making frequent passes through the train and staffed by a (usually) cheery attendant. The range of food and drink on offer was limited but adequate - and very welcome.

I have never enjoyed a cup of trolley tea as much as when boarding the crack of dawn Inverness service from Altnabreac[1] after wild camping in winter by one of the lakes.

[1] Sadly the early one no longer stops, so this can't be repeated.

misterredmist · 8 Jul 2019

Having traveled Paddington to Plymouth and back this weekend, on both trips, the trolley was static at the other side of coach D, opposite the bike rack. We didn't need to use it westbound as we had our own supplies, but went for two cups of tea en-route home. The queueing down coach D could not have been much fun for the passengers sat there and I felt a bit sorry for the lady serving as it took quite a long time to serve each passenger and the contactless card option was not functioning.

Yes, she did receive complaints about not walking through the train with the trolley but luggage at the end of the coaches ( both services were very busy ) would have made this very difficult. Looking at the space taken up by the 'trolley area' , I think GWR / DFT missed a trick, a buffet set up would not have taken up much more space and they would probably have better sales and more contented passengers.

misterredmist · 8 Jul 2019

Oh, not relevant , however, Michael Portillo and his TV crew boarded at Taunton and had to squeeze passed everyone in the queue, they all alighted at Castle Cary..........

Bromley boy · 8 Jul 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I would bet my entire worth that that is not what they are trying to achieve.

Note I’m not saying I think eliminating it is the correct approach, but it seems that the current offering is so poor that it’s hard not to wonder if this is the ultimate game plan.

Bletchleyite said:
I didn't want to dine, I just wanted 3-4 cups of tea in a 5.5 hour journey.

Agreed on longer distance services there needs to be some provision for hot drinks. But on a London-Bristol run I’m not sure it would be missed. There are plenty of better quality outlets at the major stations on the route.

One “venti” sized tea or coffee, bought before boarding, would probably be enough for most people on a two hour trip.

43096 · 8 Jul 2019

Bromley boy said:
Presumably they think the high end “Pullman Dining” offering is better at turning a profit.

Agreed about the set length. It made a lot more sense on the HSTs.

I don’t see how an “elite” product (Pullman dining) on just a handful of trains per day, justifies fitting every set with a kitchen and losing at least half a coach of space on every train. A buffet on all IC services would be far more effective, provide more revenue and a better justification for losing half a vehicle.

Bletchleyite · 8 Jul 2019

43096 said:
I don’t see how an “elite” product (Pullman dining) on just a handful of trains per day, justifies fitting every set with a kitchen and losing at least half a coach of space on every train. A buffet on all IC services would be far more effective, provide more revenue and a better justification for losing half a vehicle.

And as I said you can do restaurant quality food in a microwave with convection grill. It just requires a careful selection of that food. So you won't be able to do pan fried fish or freshly grilled steak, but you could easily have a wide range of curries, chillies, stews, risottos, paellas, German sausage based dishes and other such things. Present them nicely on a proper plate and you'll still sell them, I reckon. It doesn't have to be cow-and-chips (and in any case they don't tend to do chips due to the risk of having hot deep frying oil sloshing around on a train). And for a fry-up, provided you do either scrambled eggs or some kind of omelette, all the classic ingredients of that are fine microwaved too. Maybe for some carbs add some hash browns done in the combi oven - Subway's are decent enough.

The presentation is 99% of it. Most pub meals these days are foodservice, not freshly cooked. People still buy them, indeed they appreciate how quickly they show up, which wouldn't be possible were they freshly cooked.

So here's a possibly not too expensive fix, then.

Remove the cycle space opposite the trolley dock and extend the trolley dock out to have a small buffet counter. Still not much place to queue but it would be usable.

Reduce the size of the kitchen by one window bay at the door end. Install the cycle space there instead.

Done.

43096 · 8 Jul 2019

Bletchleyite said:
And as I said you can do restaurant quality food in a microwave with convection grill. It just requires a careful selection of that food. So you won't be able to do pan fried fish or freshly grilled steak, but you could easily have a wide range of curries, chillies, stews, risottos, paellas, German sausage based dishes and other such things. Present them nicely on a proper plate and you'll still sell them, I reckon. It doesn't have to be cow-and-chips (and in any case they don't tend to do chips due to the risk of having hot deep frying oil sloshing around on a train). And for a fry-up, provided you do either scrambled eggs or some kind of omelette, all the classic ingredients of that are fine microwaved too. Maybe for some carbs add some hash browns done in the combi oven - Subway's are decent enough.

The presentation is 99% of it. Most pub meals these days are foodservice, not freshly cooked. People still buy them, indeed they appreciate how quickly they show up, which wouldn't be possible were they freshly cooked.

Agreed - the DB Bordbistro concept is a good starting point.

Bletchleyite · 8 Jul 2019

43096 said:
Agreed - the DB Bordbistro concept is a good starting point.

I reckon that approach (with a takeaway-to-your-seat option) might work on weekends, too. The Travelling Chef didn't, but all that was in my recollection was overpriced bacon butties and toasties, not Bordbistro style meals.

Here's the DB menu:
https://www.bahn.de/p/view/service/zug/bordgastronomie/monatsaktion.shtml
(Sorry it's in German - but I'm sure Google Translate will make a decent job of it)

You get the same sort of inherently microwaveable stuff on most long-distance restaurant cars in Europe (and for that matter the Caledonian Sleeper when they can make the coaches work). The old "Pullman style" restaurant doesn't really exist anywhere else apart from those few GWR services and charters.

There would be little point in this on the Bristol services any more than there would be on Euston-Birmingham (which nonetheless does have a full service buffet car). But on the Westcountry services, LNER's London-Edinburgh services, VTWC Scottish services, XC etc it would all work quite well. Particularly with so many people on Advances and thus not able to stop off on a whim to get a cup of tea and drop back a train. (I'd probably have done that myself as I was on a walk-up, probably at Plymouth, but there were a *lot* of cancellations on Sunday so didn't fancy the risk).

Bletchleyite · 8 Jul 2019

Actually, talking of bacon butties, you can still do those with a microwave and (if desired) toaster. Microwave pre-cooked bacon and put it between two slices of bread (or toast) afterwards. This does not require a very big kitchen - after all, the kind of greasy cafe trailers you see in industrial estates are no bigger than a couple of window bays.

ashkeba · 8 Jul 2019

Carlisle said:
Unlikely, given how much this country struggles to break with tradition & particularly for something not actually conceived here.

I'm pretty sure the pasta dish I had in the restaurant car run by the gone-but-not-missed NXEA was DB-style microwaved restaurant fare - and the GEML is another line about to get new multiple units. https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...dler-flirt-trains.148431/page-46#post-3777839 says they'll have buffets, but sadly the restaurants won't be coming back. Why are GWR passengers having to suffer no buffets? How hard can it be to make a kitchen-or-buffet carriage?

ashkeba · 8 Jul 2019

Bromley boy said:
One “venti” sized tea or coffee, bought before boarding, would probably be enough for most people on a two hour trip.

I know they serve it too hot to drink, but is it really still drinkably warm after two hours?

Bromley boy · 8 Jul 2019

43096 said:
I don’t see how an “elite” product (Pullman dining) on just a handful of trains per day, justifies fitting every set with a kitchen and losing at least half a coach of space on every train. A buffet on all IC services would be far more effective, provide more revenue and a better justification for losing half a vehicle.

I don’t disagree with that, it’s certainly a strange state of affairs to have ended up kitchens and no buffet. It’s a shame the kitchen can’t be used to prepare “at seat” meals on non Pullman Dining services.

ashkeba said:
I know they serve it too hot to drink, but is it really still drinkably warm after two hours?

I wouldn’t take two hours to drink a venti sized coffee. Given that it’s around a pint of liquid, I doubt I’d want to buy another hot drink before journey’s end on a two hour trip!

Parallel · 8 Jul 2019

Bromley boy said:
I don’t disagree with that, it’s certainly a strange state of affairs to have ended up kitchens and no buffet. It’s a shame the kitchen can’t be used to prepare “at seat” meals on non Pullman Dining services.

This is it really. Doesn’t even need to be travelling chef just just some kind of improved catering option (hot paninis or rolls?) I wonder why the Pullman dining was chosen over the express cafe. Surely the express cafe was a lot more profitable than the current trolley service!

Master29 · 8 Jul 2019

Bletchleyite said:
And as I said you can do restaurant quality food in a microwave with convection grill. It just requires a careful selection of that food. So you won't be able to do pan fried fish or freshly grilled steak, but you could easily have a wide range of curries, chillies, stews, risottos, paellas, German sausage based dishes and other such things. Present them nicely on a proper plate and you'll still sell them, I reckon. It doesn't have to be cow-and-chips (and in any case they don't tend to do chips due to the risk of having hot deep frying oil sloshing around on a train). And for a fry-up, provided you do either scrambled eggs or some kind of omelette, all the classic ingredients of that are fine microwaved too. Maybe for some carbs add some hash browns done in the combi oven - Subway's are decent enough.

The presentation is 99% of it. Most pub meals these days are foodservice, not freshly cooked. People still buy them, indeed they appreciate how quickly they show up, which wouldn't be possible were they freshly cooked.

So here's a possibly not too expensive fix, then.

Remove the cycle space opposite the trolley dock and extend the trolley dock out to have a small buffet counter. Still not much place to queue but it would be usable.

Reduce the size of the kitchen by one window bay at the door end. Install the cycle space there instead.

Done.

When you think of it the buffet on LNER sets takes only 16 seats away from a 9 car and although would be 32 on a 10 car would be fairly negligible really, considering the fact you are a whole carriage down on most 10 car W of E services.
You`re right about decent microwavable meals nowadays. May not be haute cuisine but still can be very nice and I believe that`s what they do on Virgin anyway.

Master29 · 8 Jul 2019

broadgage said:
Those who admire IETs kept saying that a trolley is so much better than a buffet, I now await similar claims that a static trolley is even better !

I have noticed the defenders of the trolley have become conspicuous by their silence. Bit of an oxymoron there I think.

AngusH · 8 Jul 2019

Parallel said:
This is it really. Doesn’t even need to be travelling chef just just some kind of improved catering option (hot paninis or rolls?) I wonder why the Pullman dining was chosen over the express cafe. Surely the express cafe was a lot more profitable than the current trolley service!

I wonder if this was so that if the question was asked:

"will the new trains reduce the quality of catering?"
the answer could be
"No, we will still have a full meal service on board".

(ie talk about the highest level of service, not the average)

When the true answer is more like

"We will remove the buffet and mostly offer a trolley with occasional pullman dining service"

It's decision making by press release.

Unless the decision makers personally like the dining and thus ensured it continued?

JN114 · 8 Jul 2019

Master29 said:
I have noticed the defenders of the trolley have become conspicuous by their silence. Bit of an oxymoron there I think.

No they’re just tired and fed up of the outlandish wibble and hyperbole surrounding the new trains, the near-constant bickering and derision that crops up every time someone suggests they’re not all that bad, and they’re getting on with their lives.

In three months the petition has attracted all of 2500 odd signatures - hardly a groundswell of significant public opinion.

The buffet cars have gone. They aren’t coming back any time soon. The reasons for this have been done to death in various threads on this forum. I’m sorry you think that’s the wrong decision; but that’s the decision that has been made. Despite recent forays in that direction by government; the world doesn’t run on public opinion (thankfully).

For the record I don’t think it’s the best decision either; but I know I can’t change it. I also don’t think it’s particularly important. What we have now can be done an awful lot better - let’s get that right first; and if it’s still not then working other options could then be explored.

EastCoastway · 8 Jul 2019

Let's see GWR refurbish their stock first before we cry about trolleys.

Bletchleyite · 8 Jul 2019

Master29 said:
I have noticed the defenders of the trolley have become conspicuous by their silence. Bit of an oxymoron there I think.

Probably because I'm quite happy with a good trolley service - one that always comes through the train if it physically can (at least once per hour), and one that near enough always has hot (ish) water etc. Indeed, when travelling with a laptop etc I prefer a trolley.

The trouble is that this is an inept mess. I've noticed a similar issue on some XC services (though I mostly avoid them, so my experience is more anecdotal than on GWR who I've used a number of times of late) - is it a staffing issue that the staff hate doing trolleys so much that they drag their feet and avoid doing a proper service, as opposed to on TOCs that have never had buffets who just get on with it, going up and down as often as they can, and flog as much stuff as possible to boost their commission?

Indeed, are the GWR staff on commission? Is this the key difference?

Bletchleyite · 8 Jul 2019

JN114 said:
For the record I don’t think it’s the best decision either; but I know I can’t change it. I also don’t think it’s particularly important. What we have now can be done an awful lot better - let’s get that right first

And I'd have been happy with that - on Friday and Sunday I'd have had my 3-4 cups of tea and a couple of choccy bars each way, and GWR would have had my 25 quid or so.

What actually happened was that I didn't get those things (and was as a result dissatisfied), and GWR didn't get much money despite paying 2 stewards to stand there not doing very much (so I'm sure they were dissatisfied too).

I don't entirely understand why it escapes the railway (other than ScotRail and possibly TPE) to do a trolley service well. It really isn't a particularly difficult thing to do at all.

JN114 · 9 Jul 2019

Bletchleyite said:
is it a staffing issue that the staff hate doing trolleys so much that they drag their feet and avoid doing a proper service

Cynically I’d suggest you’re possibly not wrong - and is a lot of what I’m getting at with let’s fix what we have first.

Master29 · 9 Jul 2019

JN114 said:
No they’re just tired and fed up of the outlandish wibble and hyperbole surrounding the new trains, the near-constant bickering and derision that crops up every time someone suggests they’re not all that bad, and they’re getting on with their lives.

No. More than likely that they know they were wrong in the first place given the current mess surrounding GWR catering.

JN114 said:
the world doesn’t run on public opinion (thankfully).

Sometimes perhaps it should given that the basis of any democracy.

JN114 said:
For the record I don’t think it’s the best decision either; but I know I can’t change it. I also don’t think it’s particularly important. What we have now can be done an awful lot better - let’s get that right first; and if it’s still not then working other options could then be explored.

On the whole I agree with you here, but they have had many years to sort out issues with the W of E that go back to BR days so you can understand my scepticism. Here`s hoping.

Bletchleyite said:
Probably because I'm quite happy with a good trolley service - one that always comes through the train if it physically can (at least once per hour), and one that near enough always has hot (ish) water etc. Indeed, when travelling with a laptop etc I prefer a trolley.

Agreed. Especially if it were run properly although a buffet car is a personal preference.

Mountain Man · 9 Jul 2019

irish_rail said:
And with LNER , Anglia , TPE all introducing buffets for much shorter journeys it seems scandalous that GWR passengers are paying the price for dft incompetence.

Or you could say, LNER, Anglia and TPE are incompetent for missing out on an easy way to add seating capacity.

Petition to bring back the buffet on GWR

Veteran Member

RailUK Forums

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Member

Member

Established Member

On Moderation

Veteran Member

On Moderation

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member