Bus and integrated transport fares in Nottinghamshire

ChrisC · 7 Jul 2019

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ilway-connectivity.184669/page-6#post-4086809

thenorthern said:
In an ideal world yes however in most areas with light rail / rapid transit there is a passenger transport executive who oversees the implementation of public transport policy for a set area and applies to Westminster for funding when improvements are needed. In the East Midlands however there is no such body and more to the point Nottingham is a separate unitary authority to the rest of Nottinghamshire County Council so there isn't even a unified transport policy between the two and Nottingham City Council isn't going to pay for a line that largely runs outside its area.

When the line through Beeston was being planned I know there was a lot of controversy about who was paying for the line as a large amount of it runs through Broxtowe.

Nottingham is often mentioned as an example of a city with good co-ordinated public transport. I agree that it is within the city area and the Robin Hood Card is good to use for multi-operator journeys. However, outside the city, the further you go out into the county area the more difficult it becomes to find any examples of multi operator ticketing and co ordination between different modes of transport. In the centre of the county, in the Mansfield area, there is no joint ticketing between the two major bus companies of Stagecoach and Trent Barton. There have been numerous postings here concerning the fact that these two bus companies won’t even accept their own day tickets on the jointly operated Pronto Bus service which is the main north south route in the county.

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thenorthern · 8 Jul 2019

ChrisC said:
Nottingham is often mentioned as an example of a city with good co-ordinated public transport. I agree that it is within the city area and the Robin Hood Card is good to use for multi-operator journeys. However, outside the city, the further you go out into the county area the more difficult it becomes to find any examples of multi operator ticketing and co ordination between different modes of transport. In the centre of the county, in the Mansfield area, there is no joint ticketing between the two major bus companies of Stagecoach and Trent Barton. There have been numerous postings here concerning the fact that these two bus companies won’t even accept their own day tickets on the jointly operated Pronto Bus service which is the main north south route in the county.

Good old Mansfield and its odd bus system, when I was there it was annoying as to get to Rainworth it was £1.90 on the Trent Barton 141 but £2.40 on the Stagecoach 27/28 although the latter was more frequent but slower.

Mansfield is rather odd in that very few students at the college take public busses to the college as there is the bus that takes students to the college for free operated by the college.

duffield · 8 Jul 2019

ChrisC said:
Nottingham is often mentioned as an example of a city with good co-ordinated public transport. I agree that it is within the city area and the Robin Hood Card is good to use for multi-operator journeys. However, outside the city, the further you go out into the county area the more difficult it becomes to find any examples of multi operator ticketing and co ordination between different modes of transport. In the centre of the county, in the Mansfield area, there is no joint ticketing between the two major bus companies of Stagecoach and Trent Barton. There have been numerous postings here concerning the fact that these two bus companies won’t even accept their own day tickets on the jointly operated Pronto Bus service which is the main north south route in the county.

The Robin Hood card is excellent value for those like me who can afford to pay annually, it's very unfair on less well off people who can only afford (e.g.) monthly.
Yearly= £1.68 per day (£612 p.a.)
Monthly= £2.73 per day (£984 p.a.)
Monthly, direct debit = £2.50 per day (£900 p.a.)

Even though I benefit from it, I think it's outrageous that poor people end up paying £300-£400 per year more for the same service.

There is absolutely no good reason why the difference should be so extreme.

edwin_m · 8 Jul 2019

duffield said:
The Robin Hood card is excellent value for those like me who can afford to pay annually, it's very unfair on less well off people who can only afford (e.g.) monthly.
Yearly= £1.68 per day (£612 p.a.)
Monthly= £2.73 per day (£984 p.a.)
Monthly, direct debit = £2.50 per day (£900 p.a.)

Even though I benefit from it, I think it's outrageous that poor people end up paying £300-£400 per year more for the same service.

There is absolutely no good reason why the difference should be so extreme.

Interesting to compare the respective rates (per year) on NCT Easyrider Everyday:

Yearly £570
Monthly £696
Monthly direct debit £660

So the taper on the Easyrider is a lot less, and I would guess a lot of people who can afford to pay for a whole year would fork out £42 extra for the convenience of being able to use all major operators. But someone who can't afford the annual version and lives in a part of Nottingham with sparse service split between multiple operators is doubly penalised.

Not sure how this relates to the topic (I think I'll ask for it to be transferred), but it does illustrate that even in a pro-bus city like Nottingham things are far from perfect.

Mitch in Notts · 19 Jul 2019

I was amazed to use my Robin Hood PAYG Card on Nottingham City Transport(NCT) the other day and be charged £2.30 for a single trip. That is the cash fare price - there is no discount on Robin Hood single fares. As my second (and final) journey was with Trent Barton I got my Mango out and paid £2.07 as it was 3p cheaper than using the Robin Hood Card. All the Robin Hood operators charge £2 or £2.10 for single journeys - NCT don't even have the decency to offer a 10p discount - things must be bad for them!

SCH117X · 19 Jul 2019

Mitch in Notts said:
I was amazed to use my Robin Hood PAYG Card on Nottingham City Transport(NCT) the other day and be charged £2.30 for a single trip. That is the cash fare price - there is no discount on Robin Hood single fares. As my second (and final) journey was with Trent Barton I got my Mango out and paid £2.07 as it was 3p cheaper than using the Robin Hood Card. All the Robin Hood operators charge £2 or £2.10 for single journeys - NCT don't even have the decency to offer a 10p discount - things must be bad for them!

Prices for Robin Hood PAYG are clearly set out here
https://robinhoodnetwork.co.uk/robin-hood-pay-as-you-go-card.html#newprices

edwin_m · 19 Jul 2019

Mitch in Notts said:
I was amazed to use my Robin Hood PAYG Card on Nottingham City Transport(NCT) the other day and be charged £2.30 for a single trip. That is the cash fare price - there is no discount on Robin Hood single fares. As my second (and final) journey was with Trent Barton I got my Mango out and paid £2.07 as it was 3p cheaper than using the Robin Hood Card. All the Robin Hood operators charge £2 or £2.10 for single journeys - NCT don't even have the decency to offer a 10p discount - things must be bad for them!

That's new - it was a 10p discount when I last looked and I think it was more than that when first launched - and I'm frankly disappointed in NCT here. It probably happened at the last NCT fares change when the app discount on the single fare was removed, so there now seems to be no way of saving money if you only want to make one NCT journey in a day.

Seems like another ruse to drive people towards single-operator day and period tickets, in a city where a good number of outer areas have a reasonable service (particularly evenings) if you take NCT and TB together but much less so if sticking to one operator.

radamfi · 19 Jul 2019

SCH117X said:
Prices for Robin Hood PAYG are clearly set out here
https://robinhoodnetwork.co.uk/robin-hood-pay-as-you-go-card.html#newprices

The biggest controversy here is that a single trip involving a change between 2 buses costs at least £4.

cnjb8 · 19 Jul 2019

ChrisC said:
Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ilway-connectivity.184669/page-6#post-4086809

Nottingham is often mentioned as an example of a city with good co-ordinated public transport. I agree that it is within the city area and the Robin Hood Card is good to use for multi-operator journeys. However, outside the city, the further you go out into the county area the more difficult it becomes to find any examples of multi operator ticketing and co ordination between different modes of transport. In the centre of the county, in the Mansfield area, there is no joint ticketing between the two major bus companies of Stagecoach and Trent Barton. There have been numerous postings here concerning the fact that these two bus companies won’t even accept their own day tickets on the jointly operated Pronto Bus service which is the main north south route in the county.

Stagecoach and TB are in competition. Stagecoach introduced new services on their side of Pronto on similar times to TBs side. Mango is quite integrated as you can use it on most TB buses and the tram.

edwin_m · 20 Jul 2019

cnjb8 said:
Mango is quite integrated as you can use it on most TB buses and the tram.

However tram trips are charged independently of any caps on bus journeys, so it's more of a convenient way of payment than an integrated fares initiative. Would Robin Hood would be better value if making a TB and tram trip on the same day? The whole thing is so complicated I can't be bothered to check.

ashworth · 20 Jul 2019

edwin_m said:
The whole thing is so complicated I can't be bothered to check.

That really is quite correct. It can also be far too expensive if you are trying to make a journey which is outside the city boundary and involves more than one operator. If I am making a journey involving tram and bus which is within the city area I use my Robin Hood Card. If I am making a journey entirely using Trent Barton buses I use my Mango Card. For most other journeys out in the Nottinghamshire County Council area I just give up and use my car!

I have never used the Pronto route because out of principle I refuse to have to pay again for that section of my journey when I am already on a journey which has reached my daily cap with Mango. The same would apply if I was using a Stagecoach Day Explorer. For example travelling to and from Chesterfield from Hucknall it is far cheaper to travel via Nottingham and Derby or via Sutton in Ashfield and Alfreton using Mango, than it is to simply change onto the Pronto bus at Newstead Abbey Gates or Mansfield. Nottinghamshire is not always the good example of easy integrated travel that it is often held up to be.

Saperstein · 21 Jul 2019

Mitch in Notts said:
I was amazed to use my Robin Hood PAYG Card on Nottingham City Transport(NCT) the other day and be charged £2.30 for a single trip. That is the cash fare price - there is no discount on Robin Hood single fares. As my second (and final) journey was with Trent Barton I got my Mango out and paid £2.07 as it was 3p cheaper than using the Robin Hood Card. All the Robin Hood operators charge £2 or £2.10 for single journeys - NCT don't even have the decency to offer a 10p discount - things must be bad for them!

There’s a reason it’s called ‘Robin Hood’

I’ll get me coat....

Saperstein.

edwin_m · 21 Jul 2019

Saperstein said:
There’s a reason it’s called ‘Robin Hood’

I’ll get me coat....

Saperstein.

Somebody just nicked it.

Mitch in Notts · 22 Jul 2019

Mango cards cease to be valid on the tram from the 29th December 2019 Trent Barton have stated (see their facebook page for 22 July 2019 at 13:00 hours - sorry I don't know how to link to an individual post).

cnjb8 · 22 Jul 2019

Mitch in Notts said:
Mango cards cease to be valid on the tram from the 29th December 2019 Trent Barton have stated (see their facebook page for 22 July 2019 at 13:00 hours - sorry I don't know how to link to an individual post).

TB are really going back with Mango considering you cant top up on board anymore.

radamfi · 22 Jul 2019

cnjb8 said:
TB are really going back with Mango considering you cant top up on board anymore.

Topping up on the bus was silly anyway as the whole point of the system is to remove driver interaction. Maybe the tram will gain touch in touch out contactless like TB buses.

ChrisC · 22 Jul 2019

Mitch in Notts said:
Mango cards cease to be valid on the tram from the 29th December 2019 Trent Barton have stated (see their facebook page for 22 July 2019 at 13:00 hours - sorry I don't know how to link to an individual post).

Is this yet another example of how travel by public transport within Nottinghamshire is becoming even less integrated, inconvenient and more expensive?

It has never been very satisfactory that Mango has not had a combined daily cap for tram and bus travel. Tram and bus travel are charged separately but at least if you regularly use Trent Barton Buses outside the city and occasionally used the tram from somewhere like Hucknall you only need to keep one card topped up. Now you are going to need an additional topped up Robin Hood Card if you are to use the tram. What is now needed is for the Robin Hood Card area to be extended further outside the city boundary to include areas like Hucknall, Eastwood, Stapleford etc, but I doubt that Trent Barton would agree to that.

My original understanding was that Trent Barton were only suspending onboard Mango top-up until they have new ticket machines installed. I’m not so sure now if that is still the case. I think Trent Barton are probably moving eventually closer to a non contact payment system, with touch in and touch out as with Mango, with daily and weekly caps as in London. That could perhaps mean the end of Mango. I only now find Mango useful when I’m doing lots of travelling and will reach my daily cap as now it only gives a 10% discount it’s hardly worth bothering with on single journeys.

If only there was a single day ticket valid on all operators in Nottiinghamshire!

ag51ruk · 22 Jul 2019

Midlands Connect (which is an organisation of local authorities across both the East and West Midlands) commissioned a study on East Midlands integrated ticketing a while ago, although it seems to have gone quiet since - possible improvements suggested extending the Robin Hood Card across the whole East Midlands, or a single back office behind Robin Hood, Mango, etc. It pre-dates the widespread introduction of contactless, but does have a useful list of the all of the current smart cards

https://committee.nottinghamcity.go...c. 1 for Robin Hood Smartcard Development.pdf

Mitch in Notts · 22 Jul 2019

10% mango discount is still quite good. Return fare from where I live to Nottingham is £4.60 or £4.14 with a mango. All those 46ps add up! Fares to out of town destinations give an even greater saving and the £5.85 9am cap is good. The only fault is the total lack of a pre 9am cap meaning it can cost more than buying an on board cash zig zag plus at £10!

bussnapperwm · 26 Jul 2019

Really it could do with a combined authority system in the three counties,with transport under a "Transport for East Midlands" style organisation and ticket system (such as 1 ticket for all three counties)

cnjb8 · 26 Jul 2019

bussnapperwm said:
Really it could do with a combined authority system in the three counties,with transport under a "Transport for East Midlands" style organisation and ticket system (such as 1 ticket for all three counties)

All these Transport for Whatnots want franchising. I doubt that would work here.

bussnapperwm · 27 Jul 2019

cnjb8 said:
All these Transport for Whatnots want franchising. I doubt that would work here.

As far as I'm aware, the West Midlands one is more in favour of "Bus Alliances" and "Quality Partnerships"

radamfi · 27 Jul 2019

cnjb8 said:
All these Transport for Whatnots want franchising. I doubt that would work here.

Franchising works in lots of places so what's so special about the East Midlands?

cnjb8 · 27 Jul 2019

radamfi said:
Franchising works in lots of places so what's so special about the East Midlands?

Our network is established and already functions well. I cant see any benefit to franchising here.

bussnapperwm said:
As far as I'm aware, the West Midlands one is more in favour of "Bus Alliances" and "Quality Partnerships"

Forgot about that

radamfi · 27 Jul 2019

cnjb8 said:
Our network is established and already functions well.

That's debatable, given the complaints about ticketing in this thread. But even if we assume that ticketing woes don't matter and the existing network "functions well", how do you know that a more integrated system won't work at least as well, if not better?

cnjb8 · 27 Jul 2019

radamfi said:
That's debatable, given the complaints about ticketing in this thread. But even if we assume that ticketing woes don't matter and the existing network "functions well", how do you know that a more integrated system won't work at least as well, if not better?

I agree we need more integration. But we already have award winning companies like TB and NCT. A franchising model could massively damage existing companies. Though, in TBs case, they are mucking up Mango.

Bus and integrated transport fares in Nottinghamshire

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