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New trains for East Midlands Franchise

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samuelmorris

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Class 379 would be a better option than Class 360 give their ability to operate with corridor connections.
And the Class 379 are already configured with 2+2 seating, together with luggage capacity. Most seats already have tables and those that don't could easily have them fitted.
Whether it is possible to make them 110mph capable from their current top speed of 100mph I'm not sure.
Definitely, I'm pretty sure it was even tested once, in preparation for delivering 110mph 387s. The situation of the 379s being prohibitively expensive to lease remains, however, and the internal documentation at EMR definitely shows 360s. There's also the fact that the 360/1 fleet is an ideal size for this route, whereas using 379s would leave a small number of units left over.
 
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sonic2009

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I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but don't the 350/2 not have a home once off lease from LNWR?

Couldn't these be used?
 

43096

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I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but don't the 350/2 not have a home once off lease from LNWR?

Couldn't these be used?
They are not available in time - the stock for Corby has to be available and in service for December 2020. By the time crews have been trained that means release needs to be the summer of 2020 - the 360/1s have a lease end date (according to the franchise agreement) of 31/08/20. That in itself is tight.
 

F Great Eastern

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The 360s are rock solid from a build quality point of view, there's nothing wrong with them in that way, they don't rattle and the panels don't suffer at all and they still feel solid, modern, reliable workhorses.

The problem is that they're now a poor mix of Greater Anglia Black and white and First Purple and green which really is a bit of a hodgepodge of colours that completely clash with each other and in the last couple of years the maintenance of the air-conditioning units among other things has been let go.

They could do with a deep clean, a full cleaning out of the air-conditioning units and to have the seats and all the carpets replaced so they don't clash they way they do, so whilst they need a good refurbishment, nothing too heavy needs to be done with the trains that would detract from the excellent build quality that too much work might worsen.
 

Jozhua

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There's a lot of hangup on new IC trains matching 222 performance but how much does this actually matter?

HSTs seem to run mostly fine, the delays for those sets seem to have more to do with the doors than their acceleration...

Also the majority of the 125mph sections between Leicester and London are electrified, with the non electrified north of the MML usually being around 100 or less.
 

Roast Veg

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The HSTs are (for the most part) diagrammed specifically to avoid the slower services. Having an all HST timetable north of Market Harborough would scupper the Sheffield route.
 

cactustwirly

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There's a lot of hangup on new IC trains matching 222 performance but how much does this actually matter?

HSTs seem to run mostly fine, the delays for those sets seem to have more to do with the doors than their acceleration...

Also the majority of the 125mph sections between Leicester and London are electrified, with the non electrified north of the MML usually being around 100 or less.

Nope there's still a lot of 110+ sections, with a longish section of 120mph from Syston Jct to Trent Jct
 

VagueShot

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I have noticed that Stadler's production schedule for Greater Anglia is something like.

Four-car 755s
Twelve-car 745s for London and Norwich
Three-car 755s
Twelve-car 745s for Stansted

All to be in service by December 2020.

This would appear to have a back-stop if Stadler are late with deliveries of the 745s, as they could keep the unwanted 379s until the Stansted trains arrive.

Supposing, Abellio go for Stadler for the Midland Main Line and Corby. They would need six twelve-car 745s for two trains per hour between London and Corby, with preferably an operating speed of 125 mph.

There are already 125 mph electric Flirts working in Norway, so I wouldn't be surprised to see Greater Anglia's 745s have the ability to go faster than 100 mph, with Stadler knowing how to get them to do 110 mph or even 125 mph.

So could we see 745s delivered for London and Corby before the Stansted 745s? Greater Anglia would carry on as now with the 379s on Stansted duties and before delivery of the Corby 745s, 360s would work London and Corby for perhaps six months at the most.

Also, if the Corby trains were exactly the same as the London and Norwich ones, this would surely mean that they could be certified for Corby in double-quick time.

Abellio have also invested heavily in driver simulators and other training aids for their new fleet, so having the same trains on both routes must be an advantage.

Recently, I rode in a PowerPack-in-the middle Stadler GTW in the Netherlands. It whetted my appetite for riding in one of Greater Anglia's 755s. They certainly look good in the sidi9ngs and on video.
 

Helvellyn

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The gangway doors are something of an issue, but I assume with all stations barriered there won't be much in the way of on-train inspection and for that journey length no catering either.
I don't think Abellio have any plans to barrier Wellingborough, Kettering and Corby though.
 

VagueShot

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I have been doing some calculations about the performance of battery-electric trains, as applied to the Midland Main Line.

Consider
  • The line will be electrified from London to Market Harborough.
  • It is likely that between Clay Cross and Sheffield will be electrified as part of High Speed Two and it could be done by 2023, with an early go-ahead.
  • Fast charging for battery-electric trains is being developed by several companies including Vivarail, who have a scalable system, that could recharge a large train quickly.
  • Stadler have recently solved the Schleswig-Holstein Question with a substantial fleet of battery-electric trains.
I believe that it would be possible for battery-electric trains to run successfully on the Midland Main Line, with charging stations at Derby, Leiecester and Nottingham.

Who needs bi-modes?
 

samuelmorris

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I have been doing some calculations about the performance of battery-electric trains, as applied to the Midland Main Line.

Consider
  • The line will be electrified from London to Market Harborough.
  • It is likely that between Clay Cross and Sheffield will be electrified as part of High Speed Two and it could be done by 2023, with an early go-ahead.
  • Fast charging for battery-electric trains is being developed by several companies including Vivarail, who have a scalable system, that could recharge a large train quickly.
  • Stadler have recently solved the Schleswig-Holstein Question with a substantial fleet of battery-electric trains.
I believe that it would be possible for battery-electric trains to run successfully on the Midland Main Line, with charging stations at Derby, Leiecester and Nottingham.

Who needs bi-modes?

The stopping time at intermediate stations would not really support charging without overhead wires, so that could only be done at the terminus stations. The return journey from Market Harborough to Sheffield is over 150 miles, and the turnaround times at Sheffield are < 30 minutes, and at St Pancras end sometimes less than 10, so you'd need to be charging at the same rate as the Vivarail units (8 mins) as a minimum. Theoretically possible, but very tight, and arguably a definite performance risk. If we use a figure similar to Crossrail's 24kWh/km then for the 244km round trip we're left with 5850kWh to charge in 10 minutes. In other words, each train (and there will likely be more than one charging at once at peak times) will be drawing 35MW. Where will the infrastructure be to provide that sort of power? They aren't going to fit a 40MW transformer on the train, they're vast.

Also remember that fast charging is reliant upon environmental conditions - on a cold day or a hot day, charging speed is reduced, so a considerable leeway has to be built in. It probably is technically possible but the railway is quite risk-averse, and I'm not sure it's something they'd want to take on.
 

hwl

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I have been doing some calculations about the performance of battery-electric trains, as applied to the Midland Main Line.

Consider
  • The line will be electrified from London to Market Harborough.
  • It is likely that between Clay Cross and Sheffield will be electrified as part of High Speed Two and it could be done by 2023, with an early go-ahead.
  • Fast charging for battery-electric trains is being developed by several companies including Vivarail, who have a scalable system, that could recharge a large train quickly.
  • Stadler have recently solved the Schleswig-Holstein Question with a substantial fleet of battery-electric trains.
I believe that it would be possible for battery-electric trains to run successfully on the Midland Main Line, with charging stations at Derby, Leiecester and Nottingham.

Who needs bi-modes?
I (B.Eng, M.Eng, PhD) don't... and I have been asked for advice on several battery projects (both rolling stock and infra side).
The aerodynamic loads at higher speeds above 75mph are surprisingly high so the nominal ranges quoted by manufacturers will easily halve.
What values did you use in the Davis equations when you did your calculations?
 
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hwl

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The stopping time at intermediate stations would not really support charging without overhead wires, so that could only be done at the terminus stations. The return journey from Market Harborough to Sheffield is over 150 miles, and the turnaround times at Sheffield are < 30 minutes, and at St Pancras end sometimes less than 10, so you'd need to be charging at the same rate as the Vivarail units (8 mins) as a minimum. Theoretically possible, but very tight, and arguably a definite performance risk. If we use a figure similar to Crossrail's 24kWh/km then for the 244km round trip we're left with 5850kWh to charge in 10 minutes. In other words, each train (and there will likely be more than one charging at once at peak times) will be drawing 35MW. Where will the infrastructure be to provide that sort of power? They aren't going to fit a 40MW transformer on the train, they're vast.

Also remember that fast charging is reliant upon environmental conditions - on a cold day or a hot day, charging speed is reduced, so a considerable leeway has to be built in. It probably is technically possible but the railway is quite risk-averse, and I'm not sure it's something they'd want to take on.
Due to the higher speeds on the MML energy consumption will be even higher, Crossrail is incredibly good so all your estimates are on the optimistic side of things.
 

samuelmorris

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Due to the higher speeds on the MML energy consumption will be even higher, Crossrail is incredibly good so all your estimates are on the optimistic side of things.
Indeed, I agree, but that was the requirement figure, not what has actually been measured on 345s. I don't know how close they came to that figure in practice (either side). I expect new high-speed stock would be at least as good aerodynamically if not better, but the difference between 90mph and 125mph operation will be considerable. Certainly using my own EV as an example, the 40% increase in speed from 50mph to 70mph leads to around a 55% increase in energy consumption, so EMR would probably experience similar. We are getting there with electric propulsion for personal and industrial road vehicles, and branch line units like the 230 and perhaps regional units like the BatteryFlex will be workable, but 70+ mile stretches of mainline for 125mph express services really are at the edge of the use case for battery power. Something for the next generation in the 2050s perhaps if the government still haven't pulled their fingers out with electrification.

Then there's also the argument that it's far less environmentally sustainable to build an enormous battery raft than to provide a means of directly powering the train.
 

Alfie1014

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The 360s are rock solid from a build quality point of view, there's nothing wrong with them in that way, they don't rattle and the panels don't suffer at all and they still feel solid, modern, reliable workhorses.

The problem is that they're now a poor mix of Greater Anglia Black and white and First Purple and green which really is a bit of a hodgepodge of colours that completely clash with each other and in the last couple of years the maintenance of the air-conditioning units among other things has been let go.

They could do with a deep clean, a full cleaning out of the air-conditioning units and to have the seats and all the carpets replaced so they don't clash they way they do, so whilst they need a good refurbishment, nothing too heavy needs to be done with the trains that would detract from the excellent build quality that too much work might worsen.

I agree with all of that, especially the current tired condition and erratic air-con. My only thoughts on the transfer are that they only have 1 (accessible) toilet which when out of service means no toilet within the set and no means of moving to a different set. So I would hope that a second is added? And secondly the positioning of First Class, is not ideal air con wise as it’s frequently cooler in the main body of the coach, (as unlike the Electrostar family with 2 air con pods), the Desiros only have a centrally placed one. Lastly ride quality, again with the first class at the vehicle end over a motor bogie it can be lively at up to 100 mph on the GE it’ll be interesting to see how they perform at 110 mph on the MML?
 

VagueShot

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The stopping time at intermediate stations would not really support charging without overhead wires, so that could only be done at the terminus stations. The return journey from Market Harborough to Sheffield is over 150 miles, and the turnaround times at Sheffield are < 30 minutes, and at St Pancras end sometimes less than 10, so you'd need to be charging at the same rate as the Vivarail units (8 mins) as a minimum. Theoretically possible, but very tight, and arguably a definite performance risk. If we use a figure similar to Crossrail's 24kWh/km then for the 244km round trip we're left with 5850kWh to charge in 10 minutes. In other words, each train (and there will likely be more than one charging at once at peak times) will be drawing 35MW. Where will the infrastructure be to provide that sort of power? They aren't going to fit a 40MW transformer on the train, they're vast.

Also remember that fast charging is reliant upon environmental conditions - on a cold day or a hot day, charging speed is reduced, so a considerable leeway has to be built in. It probably is technically possible but the railway is quite risk-averse, and I'm not sure it's something they'd want to take on.

If you charge from battery in station to battery on train or more probably battery in station to supercapacitor on train, you can get a high rate of charge if you use third rail electrification in stations. Vivarail is doing this and they get an impressive rate of charge, with automatic connection. The third rail would only be live when a train is connected.
 

VagueShot

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Due to the higher speeds on the MML energy consumption will be even higher, Crossrail is incredibly good so all your estimates are on the optimistic side of things.
Have you ever stood on a platform, when an Aventra goes buy? There is little noise and turbulence, as I suspect Bombardier have used their aerodynamic expertise to cut down air resistance. I suspect, there's quite a bit of aerodynamic improvement in most trains.
 

hwl

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Have you ever stood on a platform, when an Aventra goes buy? There is little noise and turbulence, as I suspect Bombardier have used their aerodynamic expertise to cut down air resistance. I suspect, there's quite a bit of aerodynamic improvement in most trains.
Yes I have. The low noise is due to several factors including traction motor cooling using external blower motors rather than motor shaft end fans (this also reduces the escape of traction motor noise from other sources e.g. magnetoresitive) which no other EMU manufacturers have done in the UK, enclosing the traction electronics in "sound proof" boxes, much quieter compressors etc.
Bombardier put a lot of though into making them quiet rather than just sound proofing as the former is a much lighter way of doing things!
At typical UK train speeds (e.g Crossrail and LO with Aventra so far) there isn't much improvement to be had with better aerodynamics over the previous generation of stock)
 

VagueShot

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The stopping time at intermediate stations would not really support charging without overhead wires, so that could only be done at the terminus stations. The return journey from Market Harborough to Sheffield is over 150 miles, and the turnaround times at Sheffield are < 30 minutes, and at St Pancras end sometimes less than 10, so you'd need to be charging at the same rate as the Vivarail units (8 mins) as a minimum. Theoretically possible, but very tight, and arguably a definite performance risk. If we use a figure similar to Crossrail's 24kWh/km then for the 244km round trip we're left with 5850kWh to charge in 10 minutes. In other words, each train (and there will likely be more than one charging at once at peak times) will be drawing 35MW. Where will the infrastructure be to provide that sort of power? They aren't going to fit a 40MW transformer on the train, they're vast.

Also remember that fast charging is reliant upon environmental conditions - on a cold day or a hot day, charging speed is reduced, so a considerable leeway has to be built in. It probably is technically possible but the railway is quite risk-averse, and I'm not sure it's something they'd want to take on.

If you take a five-car 125 mph battery-electric train it will hold around 430 passengers.

The train could weigh around 200 tonnes empty.

Add the passengers at 90 Kg each, with buggies, bikes and baggage gives a train weight of 218.7 tonnes.

Running at 125 mph gives a kinetic energy of 94.9 kWh for the train.

Hybrid bus-sized batteries like the one from a new Routemaster are around 50-70 kWh. If you put two in each car, that would be a total of 600 kWh.

Suppose, you were approaching Leicester at 125 mph, after stopping probably 80% of the 94.9 kWh (76 wWh) would be transferred to the batteries. To get back up to 125 mph after Leicester would need 94.9 kWh, unless a lot of Leicester rugby players had joined, which would mean a bit more.

So charging at Leicester would need to add perhaps 20 kWh for the stop and whatever has been used in the high speed run from Market Harborough. At 4 kWh per car per mile, it will use about 320 kWh.

I think it is all possible, especially, as my 4 kWh is a very rough figure. I'd love to know the figure for an Aventra at 100 mph for starters.
 

VagueShot

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Yes I have. The low noise is due to several factors including traction motor cooling using external blower motors rather than motor shaft end fans (this also reduces the escape of traction motor noise from other sources e.g. magnetoresitive) which no other EMU manufacturers have done in the UK, enclosing the traction electronics in "sound proof" boxes, much quieter compressors etc.
Bombardier put a lot of though into making them quiet rather than just sound proofing as the former is a much lighter way of doing things!
At typical UK train speeds (e.g Crossrail and LO with Aventra so far) there isn't much improvement to be had with better aerodynamics over the previous generation of stock)

Over the weekend, I rode within a few hours in a Class 331, Class 378 and a Class 710.

The CAF train is very chatty with lots of clunking, whereas the Class 710 is getting towards the quietness of a LEVC taxi, which is a joy to ride in. The 378 was in the middle.

I suspect that power usage in an Aventra is a lot less than an Electrostar.

Good dynamics, arodynamics and digital electronics can certainly cut a train's energy use, which all goes to make battery power more achievable.

On the subject of the Class 710, sitting longitudinally, you don't notice the forward-backward shake in the train, the train, that is noticeable in the 378. Perhaps, I should take a bowl of water into the trains and see which spills the most.

Could it be, that the Aventra has smoothing in the power supply to the traction motors?

Full digital control and energy storage between the transformer and the traction motors would calm everything a lot. I can remember years ago, when Rolls-Royce put full authority digital engine control on large aero enginmes and got a substantial reduction in fuel consumption. My instinct as a life-expired Control Engineer, says it could give the same result in a train.

Getting the control system right would have been a nightmare and this could explain, why Bombardier were late getting the software for the Class 710 working.

Perhaps, the Bombardier engineers have been up to their old habits and having meetig with fellow engineers from RR, in a good pub in Derby.
 

samuelmorris

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If you charge from battery in station to battery on train or more probably battery in station to supercapacitor on train, you can get a high rate of charge if you use third rail electrification in stations. Vivarail is doing this and they get an impressive rate of charge, with automatic connection. The third rail would only be live when a train is connected.
Which still means electrifying the stations. The fast service to Sheffield has a total of 6 minutes of dwell. We aren't recharging a 2-car regional unit here, this will be a 200m (possibly longer) express train. The interface with the power source and the train won't be the issue, it will be delivering that much current to the station in the first place. To achieve what you're suggesting, you'd likely need a supercapacitor for the station to be able to deliver such a vast amount of current and specialised conductor rails installed to deal with it. It'd be a huge undertaking, and honestly, I think it's far more likely the line would just be electrified.
 

samuelmorris

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Yes I have. The low noise is due to several factors including traction motor cooling using external blower motors rather than motor shaft end fans (this also reduces the escape of traction motor noise from other sources e.g. magnetoresitive) which no other EMU manufacturers have done in the UK, enclosing the traction electronics in "sound proof" boxes, much quieter compressors etc.
Bombardier put a lot of though into making them quiet rather than just sound proofing as the former is a much lighter way of doing things!
At typical UK train speeds (e.g Crossrail and LO with Aventra so far) there isn't much improvement to be had with better aerodynamics over the previous generation of stock)
As neat an idea as that is, it hasn't really worked. The Aventra traction kit is much quieter than the Electrostars that went before them, but that's mainly in the high frequency controller, not the motors and gearing itself - something that itself has been somewhat undone with the 710s and 720s which are a much more audible pitch than the 345. Sitting above a powered bogie, there is still more traction motor noise audible in the cabin than, for example, a Desiro UK like a 360, and that's not because the Desiro has better soundproofing (though it does a little), there is simply less electrical noise to begin with, once the interference suppression ceases above 30-40mph. The overall experience on the Aventra is good from a noise perspective, but 345s certainly still have the rattling bogies, perhaps they fixed that with the 710s, I haven't ridden one yet. Or, perhaps on the Goblin they just don't reach the sort of speeds where it becomes an issue.

Getting back to the orginal discussion point, power usage of rolling stock has come down considerably but that's already being considered because the example we're using is a 345 (Simply because it's a figure I know, kwH/km figures for other stock aren't easy to come by). The only thing that will really differ between the high speed unit used on EMR and the 345 is the speed, I imagine efficiency will otherwise be very similar, and as stated, if you want to be able to recover all the energy used to run from Leicester to Derby at over 100mph in the 3 minute dwell at Derby, you're looking at a minimum of 1.6MWh, so 32MW for 3 minutes. I can't see the battery voltage in a train much exceeding 1500V DC before causing issues, so that's what, 21kA? It's a ludicrous amount of power - not something better technology will solve, this is in the area of 'not permitted by the laws of physics'. Transferring that amount of power in that space of time reliably just isn't feasible.

If you take a five-car 125 mph battery-electric train it will hold around 430 passengers.

The train could weigh around 200 tonnes empty.

Add the passengers at 90 Kg each, with buggies, bikes and baggage gives a train weight of 218.7 tonnes.

Running at 125 mph gives a kinetic energy of 94.9 kWh for the train.

Hybrid bus-sized batteries like the one from a new Routemaster are around 50-70 kWh. If you put two in each car, that would be a total of 600 kWh.

Suppose, you were approaching Leicester at 125 mph, after stopping probably 80% of the 94.9 kWh (76 wWh) would be transferred to the batteries. To get back up to 125 mph after Leicester would need 94.9 kWh, unless a lot of Leicester rugby players had joined, which would mean a bit more.

So charging at Leicester would need to add perhaps 20 kWh for the stop and whatever has been used in the high speed run from Market Harborough. At 4 kWh per car per mile, it will use about 320 kWh.

I think it is all possible, especially, as my 4 kWh is a very rough figure. I'd love to know the figure for an Aventra at 100 mph for starters.
Hybrid battery packs are smaller for just that reason, they are hybrids, only intended to normalise combustion engine use into efficient cycles, the routemaster etc. are not plug-in hybrids, so the size of their battery packs is largely irrelevant (other than knowing what size battery pack you can fit in a bus chassis) - a far more suitable comparison would be the size of the batteries in the BYD full electric city buses. I can't easily find a figure for this but Magtec's Repower system offers 266kWh, I have seen other estimates of 300kWh as a maximum, so that probably gives you an idea what you're looking at.

Your calculation does not consider losses of keeping the train at 125mph during the journey - that is where most of the energy is lost. 24kWh per train km is for a 9-car (200m) 345 at "up to" 90mph. In reality, the figure is probably higher than that for continuous 90mph operation as the figure was devised for Crossrail over the length of the route where top speed doesn't exceed 60mph for more than half of the entire route length. It also includes the regenerative braking effect, so more than 24kWh will be used until the train regens some of it back as it comes to a stop. Even if the 24kWh figure is accurate at 90mph, then that trip from Leicester to Derby would be 1.14MW. Given we're aiming for closer to 125mph, I've used 1.6MWh in my example above, which I think is probably quite generous - I suspect it'll be more in practice, maybe closer to 2MW. Enough battery packs could be used to achieve this (though probably not all under the floor, I expect some cabin space would be lost) but it's the fast charge part of your idea that doesn't work. To use a realistic amount of current and charging speeds, these trains would need to be sitting for at least 45 minutes at each end to recharge that much, which isn't workable in practice without extra platforms for them to occupy.
 
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edwin_m

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Suppose, you were approaching Leicester at 125 mph, after stopping probably 80% of the 94.9 kWh (76 wWh) would be transferred to the batteries. To get back up to 125 mph after Leicester would need 94.9 kWh, unless a lot of Leicester rugby players had joined, which would mean a bit more.
Unlikely to be that much I believe. Even on stop-start workings where speeds are too low to have much aerodynamic loss, regeneration only saves 15-20% of energy costs. On an intercity working that much more energy will be lost due to sustained running at high speeds, with aerodynamic losses going roughly as the square of the speed.
 

hwl

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Unlikely to be that much I believe. Even on stop-start workings where speeds are too low to have much aerodynamic loss, regeneration only saves 15-20% of energy costs. On an intercity working that much more energy will be lost due to sustained running at high speeds, with aerodynamic losses going roughly as the square of the speed.
The best estimates I have seen for Voyager /Meridian family suggest only 19% of total energy produced by the alternators ends up as inertial losses and is therefore potentially recoverable (i.e. 81% is not as aerodynamic, rolling resistance, hotel loads). The comparison for stop-start suburban EMUs is circa 65% inertial loses of which 15-20% of the total is recovered regeneratitively i.e. 25-30% recovery of inertial...
 

hooverboy

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Unlikely to be that much I believe. Even on stop-start workings where speeds are too low to have much aerodynamic loss, regeneration only saves 15-20% of energy costs. On an intercity working that much more energy will be lost due to sustained running at high speeds, with aerodynamic losses going roughly as the square of the speed.
I think the aerodynamic loss of a sprinter for instance is still going to be quite considerable, even at 40mph.There may be some optiminisations that can be done at the design stage.
ie front end mock up attatched to a great big luggage scale,and placed into a wind tunnel to measure te amount of force exerted, the object being to design(within bounds), a more efficient,but still useful profile.

the objective with stoppers is not absolute minimum drag, but a reduction of some kind good enough to improve fuel efficiency, while still being versatile enough to cope with massive changes in seasonal footfall( so needs end gangways).

another possibility would be maybe look at a different composite material for wheelsets,to increase coefficient of friction a small amount.(it would theoretically increase fuel consumption, but with the benefit of better adhesion/increased acceleration).
I'm not talking rubber as such,as that would wear too quickly, but perhaps the sort of coating/material they use on dremel bits.

if these rural start/stoppers are being used on fairly sparce routes then rail wear is not as big a deal as it is on mainline
 
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F Great Eastern

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I agree with all of that, especially the current tired condition and erratic air-con. My only thoughts on the transfer are that they only have 1 (accessible) toilet which when out of service means no toilet within the set and no means of moving to a different set. So I would hope that a second is added? And secondly the positioning of First Class, is not ideal air con wise as it’s frequently cooler in the main body of the coach, (as unlike the Electrostar family with 2 air con pods), the Desiros only have a centrally placed one. Lastly ride quality, again with the first class at the vehicle end over a motor bogie it can be lively at up to 100 mph on the GE it’ll be interesting to see how they perform at 110 mph on the MML?

I agree with most of that but having been in First Class on a Renatus 321 in an airline seat without a table, with broken air conditioning and no window at all, let alone one that opens, I can promise you that the 360s are far better even in their current state! 321 Renatus ride quality in First Class is the only time I've felt unsafe on a train because of the noises and throwing around the train, got a couple of cups of coffee all over me too!
 

duffield

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I have been doing some calculations about the performance of battery-electric trains, as applied to the Midland Main Line.

Consider
  • The line will be electrified from London to Market Harborough.
  • It is likely that between Clay Cross and Sheffield will be electrified as part of High Speed Two and it could be done by 2023, with an early go-ahead.
  • Fast charging for battery-electric trains is being developed by several companies including Vivarail, who have a scalable system, that could recharge a large train quickly.
  • Stadler have recently solved the Schleswig-Holstein Question with a substantial fleet of battery-electric trains.
I believe that it would be possible for battery-electric trains to run successfully on the Midland Main Line, with charging stations at Derby, Leiecester and Nottingham.

Who needs bi-modes?

Re point 2, as a populist measure it is near certain that (despite the billions already spent) HS2 will be entirely cancelled by the next Conservative leader (90%+ Boris Johnson), so the working assumption should be that Clay Cross to Sheffield electrification will at the very least be delayed well beyond 2025.
 

Mikey C

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Re point 2, as a populist measure it is near certain that (despite the billions already spent) HS2 will be entirely cancelled by the next Conservative leader (90%+ Boris Johnson), so the working assumption should be that Clay Cross to Sheffield electrification will at the very least be delayed well beyond 2025.

I suspect that after a period of review Boris will keep HS2. Apart from anything else it has a lot of opposition support, so getting cancellation through the commons won't be easy

If it is cancelled, then presumably there will have to be some other rail expenditure done as a sop, with all those marginal seats in the Midlands. Such as full MML electrification for example
 

edwin_m

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Nottingham
I think the aerodynamic loss of a sprinter for instance is still going to be quite considerable, even at 40mph.There may be some optiminisations that can be done at the design stage.
ie front end mock up attatched to a great big luggage scale,and placed into a wind tunnel to measure te amount of force exerted, the object being to design(within bounds), a more efficient,but still useful profile.
There's been plenty of research done on aerodynamics. As I said above it varies roughly as the square of speed, so a 125mph train with the same end profile will have over nine times as much aerodynamic resistance.
the objective with stoppers is not absolute minimum drag, but a reduction of some kind good enough to improve fuel efficiency, while still being versatile enough to cope with massive changes in seasonal footfall( so needs end gangways).
The front end of just about every gangwayed unit from the 158 onwards has had some sort of taper at the sides and top, so an improvement on the previous generations where the end was just square (especially the 3rd-rail slam door EMUs). More recent ones such as the 380 and 385 have had a more pronounced slope, which is more about energy absorbtion in a collision but will help with aerodynamics to some extent, as will narrower inside-frame bogies.
another possibility would be maybe look at a different composite material for wheelsets,to increase coefficient of friction a small amount.(it would theoretically increase fuel consumption, but with the benefit of better adhesion/increased acceleration).
I'm not talking rubber as such,as that would wear too quickly, but perhaps the sort of coating/material they use on dremel bits.
The coefficient of friction limits the acceleration of a train but only at low speeds - at higher speeds the limit is available power. It also limits deceleration across the speed range. However the sorts of acceleration and braking rates that are achievable with steel wheels are at about the maximum for passenger comfort in an evironment where many people may be standing or walking around. There's also the problem that wheelsets are turned on a lathe several times during their lifetime to maintain a safe tread profile, so any coating would have to be reinstated after that, and would have to survive for several tens of thousands of miles without degradation of safe braking.
 

NotATrainspott

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2 Feb 2013
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3,223
Hybrid battery packs are smaller for just that reason, they are hybrids, only intended to normalise combustion engine use into efficient cycles, the routemaster etc. are not plug-in hybrids, so the size of their battery packs is largely irrelevant (other than knowing what size battery pack you can fit in a bus chassis) - a far more suitable comparison would be the size of the batteries in the BYD full electric city buses. I can't easily find a figure for this but Magtec's Repower system offers 266kWh, I have seen other estimates of 300kWh as a maximum, so that probably gives you an idea what you're looking at.

The longer-range Tesla Semi will have a 1MWh battery. If lithium-ion cells are permitted for use on rail, I think they'll be closer in spec to those used for heavy trucks rather than buses, as they'll probably have similar duty characteristics. That is, a bus battery needs to be optimised for start-stop cycles and it'll be viable in a lot of cases to have opportunity charging. Trucks spend more of their time cruising on trunk roads and won't be able to stop very often for charge.
 
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