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Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

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Bovverboy

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Not being familiar with the route though, and given the overall DMU shortage, it did strike me that it was odd to run Barrow - Manchester airport with so much under the wires. Wouldn't it make more sense to split the service at Lancaster or Preston to free up DMUs for diesel only routes? Unpopular with airport passengers of course, where a through train is especially helpful - but 80% plus people on my train were not going to the airport, though that might change with different times of day.

That said, Windermere will hopefully be electrified soon, and so I can kind of see your point that it might make sense to truncate Barrow back to Lancaster bays (and change it to be a fully clockface hourly service) and run hourly through from Manchester Airport to Windermere using a dedicated fleet of 4-car EMUs with extra luggage space and half a coach of First Class. It is also my observation that trains from Barrow almost completely tip out at Lancaster, are very quiet between there and Preston, and then pick up a load of passengers at Preston for Manchester - so it is really two distinct flows.

I see that you've done your Maths, Bletchleyite, it would indeed take a four-car EMU running every hour to provide the same total capacity as a three-car DMU running (up to) every forty-five minutes.
I think there are three issues here, which aren't necessarily related.
1) Electric v diesel v bi-mode;
2) Forty-five minute service of three-car MUs (with only one train every three hours continuing south of Oxenholme) v hourly service of MUs with every train continuing south of Oxenholme;
3) The balance of trains running to/from Barrow and to/from Windermere.
I don't think the latter idea is in any way dependent on electrification. A four-car 769 or a four-car 195 set (2x 195/0s) would provide the same capacity as a four-car EMU, and, at least over the electrified section, a 769 would provide the same acceleration. A 195 set would come close too, I'm sure.
Passengers travelling locally between Oxenholme and Windermere would be unlikely to welcome the reduction to an hourly service, but the better-than hourly service doesn't currently last all that long anyway, and I don't think people can really complain about an hourly service, given the constraints of the single-line.
On Sunday morning I travelled on the 1241 Manchester Airport to Barrow from Piccadilly to Lancaster, and it certainly didn't almost completely tip out at Preston, in fact I don't think there was much of an overall change at all, the same at Lancaster. On the other hand I have mentioned elsewhere that a majority of the passengers arriving at Preston on the 1933 ex-Airport were terminating their journeys there (or, at least, weren't continuing on the same train) but, while certainly more than half, I wouldn't have said that it was the 'vast' majority who weren't continuing. It's probably heavily dependent upon time of day.
 
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Bovverboy

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Could have done with a 195 on the 1035 Airport to Barrow yesterday morning (Sun). People were standing in the gangways on 156455 even leaving Piccadilly. I don't doubt that a fair proportion of those on board would have been heading for Blackpool, but at that time on a Sunday the Blackpool service starts from Oxford Road. Barmy, or what?

Journeys missed Sun 7/7:
1137 Barrow - Airport (after Preston), and return 1433 Airport to Windermere (as far as Preston)
1633 Airport - Barrow (after Preston), and return 1947 Barrow - Airport (as far as Preston)

So the equivalent of a complete round trip missed, in total.
 
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js1000

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On the contrary - the tables make a pleasant change from the knee crushing format on so much uni-directional stock - it was really pleasant to be on board when I caught my first one on Saturday. I do agree with your other points. I can see these rapidly growing market share on their routes due to the quality step change to such an extent that a larger order will be required, and given the age of the 156/158s it seems that a much bigger order would have been justified with longer term rolling delivery?
Agreed. I can do some work on the way to work with the table which I couldn't do previously.

I see Northern's patronage growing significantly providing they can sort the lopsided timetables (irregular calling patterns now much more common) and poor punctuality.

On the 07:48 Wilmslow to Liverpool service it's already attracting new passengers that would otherwise opt for Virgin Trains or Trains Wales services into Manchester.

These new trains will allow Northern to compete for existing passengers, as well as attract new passengers out of their cars who have long been put-off by the dilapidated, grotty appearance of many Northern trains.

Build it and they will come if TransPennine Express's passenger numbers after new rolling stock was introduced in the mid-2000s is anything to go by.
 

_toommm_

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Could have done with a 195 on the 1035 Airport to Barrow yesterday morning (Sun). People were standing in the gangways on 156455 even leaving Piccadilly. I don't doubt that a fair proportion of those on board would have been heading for Blackpool, but at that time on a Sunday the Blackpool service starts from Oxford Road. Barmy?

Journeys missed Sun 7/7:
1137 Barrow - Airport (after Preston), and return 1433 Airport to Windermere (as far as Preston)
1633 Airport - Barrow (after Preston), and return 1947 Barrow - Airport (as far as Preston)

So the equivalent of a complete round trip missed, in total.

I was on that yesterday - it was awful. I don't know if you made it as far as Preston, but it took a good 3 or 4 minutes to unload everyone with their suitcases.
 

fowler9

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The service from the airport to Lime Street at around ten to five this evening was 195117 on its own and was absolutely rammed. Isn't meant to be two units? Not good.
 

Mathew S

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These new trains will allow Northern to compete for existing passengers, as well as attract new passengers out of their cars who have long been put-off by the dilapidated, grotty appearance of many Northern trains.

Build it and they will come if TransPennine Express's passenger numbers after new rolling stock was introduced in the mid-2000s is anything to go by.
This, exactly.
This morning's train to work, which has been a 195 for a week now, was busier than I've seen it in a long while. I don't think it's a coincidence.
 

Jamesrob637

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Had one of these today from East Didsbury to Lancaster (09:29 Airport to Barrow).

Lots of positives; nice air-con which could've been a fraction cooler but nothing major, decent legroom, sturdy fold-down table, smoothish ride (I was over the wheels) and you can see down the entire train thanks to the articulated design.
Just a couple of small negatives; they should've all been ordered as minimum 3-car, 20-30 more of them to finally see off most of the 150s by the early-2020s, and the seat is possibly a little on the firm side for over an hour's trip.

But overall well done Northern: the quality is on a par with new trains elsewhere in the UK and abroad.
 

Mathew S

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Out of interest, what was it previously then? A 156 or 158?
319 from May 2018 - May 2019, then 158 May - June 2019. Prior to May 2018 the equivalent service was operated by TPE 350s.

It is always delayed (like, it's been on time at Man Picc 3 times so far this year!) because it's pathed behind an (also always delayed) stopper from Parkside Jcn along the Chat Moss.
But, the greatly improved comfort of the 195s is drawing some customers who have left because of the dire punctuality back, I think.
 

geoffk

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"Northern says the interior layouts of the air-conditioned DMUs and EMUs will be identical, with standard class seating throughout and one universal access toilet per unit" - I can see that having just one toilet in a four-car unit working Blackpool - Manchester Airport on a busy Saturday will cause a few problems. I've not read all 2,000+ posts to see if this has been raised before. A 319 has two toilets - what sort of consultation was carried out?
 

Bovverboy

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"Northern says the interior layouts of the air-conditioned DMUs and EMUs will be identical, with standard class seating throughout and one universal access toilet per unit" - I can see that having just one toilet in a four-car unit working Blackpool - Manchester Airport on a busy Saturday will cause a few problems. I've not read all 2,000+ posts to see if this has been raised before. A 319 has two toilets - what sort of consultation was carried out?

Afraid not - the ones with the accessible toilet (which is, at least, almost all of Northern's) only have the one toilet in the entire train. The only ones I'm not sure about are 319372/3/446, but I'm pretty sure the rest are as I've said.
Four-car units with one toilet are already working Blackpool to Manchester Airport.
 
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Bletchleyite

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"Northern says the interior layouts of the air-conditioned DMUs and EMUs will be identical, with standard class seating throughout and one universal access toilet per unit" - I can see that having just one toilet in a four-car unit working Blackpool - Manchester Airport on a busy Saturday will cause a few problems. I've not read all 2,000+ posts to see if this has been raised before. A 319 has two toilets - what sort of consultation was carried out?

I suspect the only consultation was of the bean counters.

Personally, because of the unreliability of CETs, particularly automatic-door ones, I would say that all units that have any toilets should have a minimum of two, of which at least one must have a conventional manual door.

This can sit with the lack of floor-level luggage racks as a design error.
 

geoffk

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Afraid not - the ones with the accessible toilet (which is, at least, almost all of Northern's) only have the one toilet in the entire train. The only ones I'm not sure about are 319372/3/446, but I'm pretty sure the rest are as I've said.
Four-car units with one toilet are already working Blackpool to Manchester Airport.
My mistake then. I remember there were two standard toilets when delivered to Northern.
 

Bovverboy

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Usual few trains short-formed this morning. Not as many as in the recent past, but I still reckon about eight formations in total are affected, with the total carriage shortfall being ten. You know, you could be forgiven for thinking that Northern had more trains than it knew what to do with.

Posted yesterday:

195 105 seems to be based at Huddersfield and paths have appeared on RTT for Manchester crew training although none have been taken up to date. Today's paths Huddersfield sidings to Preston and Blackpool were not used.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/N16293/2019/07/08/advanced
K

And slightly later:

And won't be used till next week at the earliest
 

Neptune

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Training for Leeds, Huddersfield, Sheffield and York based crews. Huddersfield crews work Leeds - Nottingham services between Leeds & Sheffield and Huddersfield guards do Leeds - Man Vic via Bradford.
 

geoffk

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Leeds - Man Vic and beyond via Bradford, Leeds - Nottingham, York - Blackpool North.
Let's hope that, when all the 195s and 331s are in service, Northern can keep them on the correct routes as they seem unable to keep Pacers off Leeds - Manchester and 150s off Leeds - Nottingham.
 

darloscott

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Let's hope that, when all the 195s and 331s are in service, Northern can keep them on the correct routes as they seem unable to keep Pacers off Leeds - Manchester and 150s off Leeds - Nottingham.
I think they've overstretched themselves with the 158s getting spread out, 150s seem to sit on a handful of 158 diagrams every day, especially on Notts/Lincs diagrams... however they've even found their way to Scarborough and Carlisle recently!
 

wellhouse

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Training for Leeds, Huddersfield, Sheffield and York based crews. Huddersfield crews work Leeds - Nottingham services between Leeds & Sheffield and Huddersfield guards do Leeds - Man Vic via Bradford.

A 195 was in the sidings at Huddersfield yesterday (Monday 8th July) Does this suggest that apart from Huddersfield crew training, they might appear on Leeds-Bradford-Huddersfield services?
 

Bertie the bus

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Twice in the last 2 days I've been on these units between Wigan and Preston and we have made what felt like an emergency brake application and stopped. Yesterday the guard announced we were stopped at a red signal and should be away shortly. I was sat on the left hand side at the front and could see the signal was green. Today there was no announcement and although I was sat on the right hand side this time I'm not sure there was even a signal.
 

superkev

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A 195 was in the sidings at Huddersfield yesterday (Monday 8th July) Does this suggest that apart from Huddersfield crew training, they might appear on Leeds-Bradford-Huddersfield services?
I think that the 195 unit based at Huddersfield is for training Manchester crews and should start in the coming weeks. Booked paths are not currently being taken up. Why Huddersfield for Manchester I know not.
Perhaps the east side crews are tied up with learning 331s and will follow later. They will prob only need a short conversion.
K
 

mikemcniven

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I think that the 195 unit based at Huddersfield is for training Manchester crews and should start in the coming weeks. Booked paths are not currently being taken up. Why Huddersfield for Manchester I know not.
Perhaps the east side crews are tied up with learning 331s and will follow later. They will prob only need a short conversion.
K

It's Huddersfield for Manchester crews down to capacity at Newton Heath depot with the new purpose built building at Newton Heath nowhere near ready
 
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