Windermere branch timetable

From: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...roduction-updates.128808/page-74#post-4097189

Bovverboy said:

I see that you've done your Maths, Bletchleyite, it would indeed take a four-car EMU running every hour to provide the same total capacity as a three-car DMU running (up to) every forty-five minutes.

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With regard to the 45 minute point - the timetable is not a 45 minute frequency. It's a cack-handed variable gap timetable which has a few trains that are 45 minutes apart, others are something like 1h20 apart. Here's a link to it:

https://d2cf7kiw5xizhy.cloudfront.n...brian-coast-and-preston---windermere-2436.pdf

As Virgin Trains operate a very nearly fully clockface timetable, and London is going to be a key connectional destination, I would consider it a very important aim to get it fully clockface for the whole period of service.

Regarding the stock, a 769 could I guess do it, but without a very heavy refurb wouldn't meet Northern Connect spec?

Bletchleyite said:

From: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...roduction-updates.128808/page-74#post-4097189



With regard to the 45 minute point - the timetable is not a 45 minute frequency. It's a cack-handed variable gap timetable which has a few trains that are 45 minutes apart, others are something like 1h20 apart. Here's a link to it:

https://d2cf7kiw5xizhy.cloudfront.n...brian-coast-and-preston---windermere-2436.pdf

As Virgin Trains operate a very nearly fully clockface timetable, and London is going to be a key connectional destination, I would consider it a very important aim to get it fully clockface for the whole period of service.

Regarding the stock, a 769 could I guess do it, but without a very heavy refurb wouldn't meet Northern Connect spec?

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Was it once clockface (I'm thinking hourly), when it was essentially purely a shuttle service to/from Oxenholme?

Regardless it's surprising how many routes are still very variable timetables, the Windermere branch is probably one of the easiest to make clockface, so why hasn't it been.

hexagon789 said:

Was it once clockface (I'm thinking hourly), when it was essentially purely a shuttle service to/from Oxenholme?

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It's been various things over the years. All stations takes 21 minutes (corrected) so it's perfect for a single unit hourly clockface service - 18 minutes layover in the hour would make for a very punctual service indeed, and have enough slack in the timetable to hold connections for delayed VTs for up to about 15 minutes too.

I think in recent years it was a 2 hour pattern, with a through service from Manchester Airport every 2 hours which would miss out Burneside and Staveley, and an intervening shuttle which called at them, meaning a 2 hourly service at those two stations but a 55 minute/65 minute ish pattern at the others. I recall someone saying this was because you couldn't get an hourly round trip in, but that's clearly false (and there's so much slack that you still could even with a tank engine and a couple of 6-wheelers, so I think that was probably false).

Regardless it's surprising how many routes are still very variable timetables, the Windermere branch is probably one of the easiest to make clockface, so why hasn't it been.

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I'm not quite sure. Northern can certainly do it - on Ormskirk-Preston, for instance, the last train of the day is the only one "off pattern", and that was to allow it to be a bit later (so nobody who just remembers the pattern will miss it).

I guess the through trains off the branch add a spanner in the works.

Roose said:

I guess the through trains off the branch add a spanner in the works.

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As VT and TPE (the other users of the line) operate pretty much fully "im Takt", I'd have thought the bitty timetable would actually make things more difficult. Logic would seem to be a train from Manchester Airport at the same minutes past each hour all day, just with some of them going to Barrow and some to Windermere, with intervening shuttles at the same minutes past.

Indeed, for the same reason I was surprised LNR got away with such a bitty timetable south of MKC when VT departures from Euston until about 2000 are fully clockface.

Bletchleyite said:

With regard to the 45 minute point - the timetable is not a 45 minute frequency. It's a cack-handed variable gap timetable which has a few trains that are 45 minutes apart, others are something like 1h20 apart. Here's a link to it:

https://d2cf7kiw5xizhy.cloudfront.n...brian-coast-and-preston---windermere-2436.pdf

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Well, I did say, in my own post, 'the better-than hourly service doesn't currently last all that long anyway..'

As Virgin Trains operate a very nearly fully clockface timetable, and London is going to be a key connectional destination, I would consider it a very important aim to get it fully clockface for the whole period of service.

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I have to say that I was surprised to discover how almost clockface the Virgin times are, I thought they were much more haphazard than they actually are. Okay, that's an argument in favour of running to a clockface timetable between Windermere and Oxenholme, but not much of one for continuing to Manchester every hour, if a significant number of passengers are going to transfer to Virgin at Oxenholme.
What's more to the point, probably, is the fact that Northern are going to struggle to get paths for an hourly service to Manchester, bearing in mind the difficulty they have now getting paths for a train every three hours. Note the number of trains which have to skip a stop at Lancaster, simply to get out of the way (usually) of a Virgin, which is outrageous really, considering where Lancaster is, geographically.
Don't forget the dozen or so freights per day, on average, which need to be accommodated within the hours of operation of passenger services.

Regarding the stock, a 769 could I guess do it, but without a very heavy refurb wouldn't meet Northern Connect spec?

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We can stick with 195s then.

Bovverboy said:

We can stick with 195s then.

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I'd rather they wired it so as to stop running EMUs under the wires. It's about the cheapest line to do imaginable, as it doesn't require any additional supplies - hooking it to what's there at Oxenholme is adequate for a 4-car EMU.

Bovverboy said:

What's more to the point, probably, is the fact that Northern are going to struggle to get paths for an hourly service to Manchester, bearing in mind the difficulty they have now getting paths for a train every three hours.

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That's not true - because the rest of the timetable is near-perfect clockface the same path should be available each hour, give or take freights.

Bletchleyite said:

That's not true - because the rest of the timetable is near-perfect clockface the same path should be available each hour, give or take freights.

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Then how do you explain the fact that, of the eight scheduled journeys between the Airport and Windermere (M/F - four in each direction) a majority (five) are required to skip Lancaster?

Bovverboy said:

Then how do you explain the fact that, of the eight scheduled journeys between the Airport and Windermere (M/F - four in each direction) a majority (five) are required to skip Lancaster?

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Probably because they aren't in clockface slots.

Bletchleyite said:

Probably because they aren't in clockface slots.

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So Northern chooses to run to a non-clockface timetable and skip Lancaster, when it could run to a clockface timetable and call? No, I can't swallow that one, sorry.

Bletchleyite said:

That's not true - because the rest of the timetable is near-perfect clockface the same path should be available each hour, give or take freights.

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There are a couple of bizarre moments in the current timetable for the paths allocated to Northern's 1Uxx express services from Preston towards Manchester Airport (via Parkside).

Departures are:
0608
0711
0808
0908
1010
1102 (waits for 11 minutes at Preston, doesn't call at Lancaster)
1208
1312
1408
1509
1608
1708 (doesn't call at Lancaster or at Wigan)
1808
1908 is actually completely missing, doesn't exist
2011 is the last service

I would say all of that is too messy to do what you have suggested - but they are still timed for Sprinters, and will presumably need to remain so until enough 100mph rolling stock is in service.

There are lots of other daily 'interruptions' to the takt. The 1010 from Manchester Airport runs non-stop from Preston to Carlisle. The 1000 from Glasgow Central via the West Midlands skips both Oxenholme and Lancaster. The 1030 London to Glasgow express does the same thing, but the other way around. The 1330 calls at Oxeholme and Penrith but not Lancaster. Both the 1400 and the 1600 from Glasgow via the West Midlands skip Penrith, call at Oxenholme and then skip Lancaster again. A couple of Windermere-bound trains skip Lancaster. Why does the 0710 from Manchester Airport to Glasgow Central call everywhere else, but skip Oxenholme? The 1410 to Edinburgh is the same. Remember that your connection to or from Windermere will frequently be to the TransPennine Express, and not the Virgin Trains service. Why all of this? It will all interrupt your plan. There will be more interruptions that I am unaware of.

Bovverboy said:

So Northern chooses to run to a non-clockface timetable and skip Lancaster, when it could run to a clockface timetable and call? No, I can't swallow that one, I'm afraid.

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It might be they'd have to skip it in all of them if they chose clockface. The reason for it being inconsistent has to be them not running clockface.

I do sort of understand why LNR mess with the Takt on the south WCML - to cram more trains in at busy times using every available slow line path - but I don't get why it is not 100% consistent north of Crewe or thereabouts. Why isn't it? Freight? Is there not a consistent hourly freight path?

Bletchleyite said:

I do sort of understand why LNR mess with the Takt on the south WCML - to cram more trains in at busy times using every available slow line path - but I don't get why it is not 100% consistent north of Crewe or thereabouts. Why isn't it? Freight? Is there not a consistent hourly freight path?

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I think one of the reasons could be a desire to balance loadings a little bit - especially because there is a very uneven distribution of capacity to Edinburgh. There are a number of minor interruptions from ScotRail which aren't clock-face at Carlisle. There are also a number of interruptions from calls at Motherwell and Lockerbie. There is an ongoing need to balance the 110mph paths with the EPS 125 ones. All of this is in addition to freight schedules.

Starmill said:

Why does the 0710 from Manchester Airport to Glasgow Central call everywhere else, but skip Oxenholme?

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Because the 1S37 05:31 Euston-Glasgow stops instead (it departs Preston at 08:15 instead of the usual XX:41), catches TPEs 1S35 up after Lockerbie (1S35 stops Penrith & Lockerbie) and pretty much follow each other up to Law Jn (4 Minute gap by Carstairs but then Virgins 1S37 goes via Holytown).

TPEs 1S35 stops on Saturday at Oxenholme as Virgins 1S37 reverts to the usual departure time ex Preston.

MDB1images said:

Because the 1S37 05:31 Euston-Glasgow stops instead (it departs Preston at 08:15 instead of the usual XX:41), catches TPEs 1S35 up after Lockerbie (1S35 stops Penrith & Lockerbie) and pretty much follow each other up to Law Jn (4 Minute gap by Carstairs but then Virgins 1S37 goes via Holytown).

TPEs 1S35 stops on Saturday at Oxenholme as Virgins 1S37 reverts to the usual departure time ex Preston.

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Indeed. It just goes to show that there are many permutations of trains running at different, off-pattern times throughout the day.

There are also issues created by the swapping you mention here in that passengers travelling from Manchester to Windermere are required to make two changes as a result. Perhaps worse than that, though is that there's no train from Oxenholme to Penrith between 0732 and 1035. Neither of these things constitutes the end of the world, but the so-called takt it isn't.

Bletchleyite said:

It's been various things over the years. All stations takes 21 minutes (corrected) so it's perfect for a single unit hourly clockface service - 18 minutes layover in the hour would make for a very punctual service indeed, and have enough slack in the timetable to hold connections for delayed VTs for up to about 15 minutes too.

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Which could prove quite useful sometimes.

Bletchleyite said:

I think in recent years it was a 2 hour pattern, with a through service from Manchester Airport every 2 hours which would miss out Burneside and Staveley, and an intervening shuttle which called at them, meaning a 2 hourly service at those two stations but a 55 minute/65 minute ish pattern at the others. I recall someone saying this was because you couldn't get an hourly round trip in, but that's clearly false (and there's so much slack that you still could even with a tank engine and a couple of 6-wheelers, so I think that was probably false).

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Would a return to that pattern work or are Burneside and Staveley sufficiently busy to warrant calls at all times?

Bletchleyite said:

I'm not quite sure. Northern can certainly do it - on Ormskirk-Preston, for instance, the last train of the day is the only one "off pattern", and that was to allow it to be a bit later (so nobody who just remembers the pattern will miss it).

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Well even that sort of arrangement would probably be acceptable, but what I think the branch needs is to be electrified as well as improving the timetable.

Bletchleyite said:

That's not true - because the rest of the timetable is near-perfect clockface the same path should be available each hour, give or take freights.

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I guess one of the issues is that the transit time on the branch for an hourly service, combined with through working, inevitable 'hardwires' the northbound and southbound Windermere through workings to each other.

So a perfect Down path on the main line to Windermere might yield an Up path that clashes with everything. Try and fix the Up path, then the Down path clashes instead, since if you move one, you move the other to get the branch to work.

When it was the regular 2-hourly through service from Manchester Airport in the 1990s, the frequency of WCML 'Intercity' service was much lower (1-2tph most hours), so there was not the same problem as today with 3tph.

Bovverboy said:

Then how do you explain the fact that, of the eight scheduled journeys between the Airport and Windermere (M/F - four in each direction) a majority (five) are required to skip Lancaster?

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Lancaster is skipped because they had to maintain the pathing using 75mph 153/156 units. Stopping at Lancaster took up too much time for a slower unit on a high speed route. I'm hoping this can be changed now 90mph 158s and 100mph 195s are in use.

In the previous timetable there was a 1206 Oxenholme to windermere train that did not connect with anything at Oxenholme - I used it whenever the 1108 arrival (0830 from Euston ) has missed the as was the 1118 Oxenholme to Windermere connection. it was usually fairly empty.
This is now 1239 so it will now connect from other arrivals at Oxenholme.

However in the afternoons there are some very tight connections now southbound at Oxenholme.
Also the 1407 Windermere arrives at Oxenholme at 1427 so misses the Euston train by 3 minutes.

On Saturdays the 1008 from Windermere just misses the connection northwards to Carlisle (unless the connection is running late!) . this train leaves at 0956 Min-Fri so the connection is possible on weekdays.

Ianno87 said:

I guess one of the issues is that the transit time on the branch for an hourly service, combined with through working, inevitable 'hardwires' the northbound and southbound Windermere through workings to each other.

So a perfect Down path on the main line to Windermere might yield an Up path that clashes with everything. Try and fix the Up path, then the Down path clashes instead, since if you move one, you move the other to get the branch to work.

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True. Any room at Oxenholme for a 4th platform, which might allow a slightly longer wait there to allow more path flexibility for the return?

I do think we overcomplicate these things, though - a standard hourly pattern is easiest to plan even if it might not be the most resource efficient option.

What does 'clockface' timetable mean please? Also Takt?

Karl said:

What does 'clockface' timetable mean please? Also Takt?

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'Clockface' means departing at the same times every hour. So
0836 0936 1036, etc, would be clockface
0811 0831 0851 0911, etc, would be
Actually, I'm not sure that even intervals are required, as long as the departures are at the same time past the clock each hour. I'm not sure on that one, though.
Equally, I doubt that a service needs to be a minimum of hourly to be 'clockface'. 0805 1005 1205 would seem to me to be 'clockface'.

I think 'takt' is short for 'taktfahrplan', where, as far as possible, all services are integrated with all others. If you want to see 'taktfahrplan' in action, visit Switzerland.

driver9000 said:

Lancaster is skipped because they had to maintain the pathing using 75mph 153/156 units. Stopping at Lancaster took up too much time for a slower unit on a high speed route. I'm hoping this can be changed now 90mph 158s and 100mph 195s are in use.

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But in the current timetable, the 0827, 1429 and 1729 from the Airport are pathed for a 90mph 158, yet skip Lancaster. While the 1306 and 1855 from Windermere are pathed for a 75mph Sprinter and call at Lancaster!

Greybeard33 said:

But in the current timetable, the 0827, 1429 and 1729 from the Airport are pathed for a 90mph 158, yet skip Lancaster. While the 1306 and 1855 from Windermere are pathed for a 75mph Sprinter and call at Lancaster!

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That was the reason given.

In each case, it’ll depend entirely on what’s following. To take one example, the 08.27 from the Airport skips Lancaster because it has a London - Glasgow train catching up with it, and sits in the Down Loop briefly whilst a train comes off the branch, crossing tightly in front of the Glasgow, before both Down trains run into the station almost simultaneously. Very tight pathing!

Bovverboy said:

I think 'takt' is short for 'taktfahrplan', where, as far as possible, all services are integrated with all others. If you want to see 'taktfahrplan' in action, visit Switzerland.

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A Taktfahrplan is a connectional standard pattern timetable, in which not only are services on a clockface pattern (i.e. at the same time each hour, or sometimes at the same time on a 2-hour pattern) but also connections are planned and coordinated for a smoother through journey. The UK does clockface timetables reasonably well these days (e.g. VTWC departures from Euston) but doesn't tend to do the connections part quite as well, largely because of fragmentation but also because of an unwillingness to spend on adequate infrastructure, such as large enough stations that you can, say, have all routes come in at xx:25 and leave again at xx:35 to allow interchange between them - but that does require enough platforms to accommodate all services at once.

It is indeed a concept more in favour in Germanic (as distinct from Romance) countries, i.e. Germany, Switzerland, Austria, the Netherlands and Belgium (to an extent). Nowhere does it 100% perfectly (and it can have downsides[1]), but SBB is probably the best example of it.

The lower the frequency, the greater the benefit of it - Germany in the past typically ran on a 2-hourly base frequency, but you could do a long journey involving multiple connections without waiting around because everything is designed to connect (if useful to do so). The UK goes for higher frequencies so the benefits are reduced, but there are still obvious cases where there is a benefit, such as between a fast train from London and the Windermere.

The literal translation, if it helps, is "tick [of the clock] timetable" - the implication being that as the clock ticks over (in that wonderful way the traditional Germanic station clock does) everything happens at once - and it is an impressive sight, a huge, maybe 16-platform station which is silent for 25 minutes out of each half hour, but is a hive of activity for about 10 minutes.

[1] For instance in CH planned connections can be quite tight - 3 or 4 minutes is not unusual. Trains do wait for connections and are planned with enough slack for this, but it can be stressful and there's no time to pop to the shop for a quick coffee unless you want to hang around for an hour.

Greybeard33 said:

But in the current timetable, the 0827, 1429 and 1729 from the Airport are pathed for a 90mph 158, yet skip Lancaster. While the 1306 and 1855 from Windermere are pathed for a 75mph Sprinter and call at Lancaster!

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driver9000 said:

That was the reason given.

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My guess (and this is just a guess) is that in the next timetable these will all go over to 100 miles / hour paths, and there will be a deal of tweaking to improve things. I would hope that the restoration of the Lancaster calls could result from this. For almost a decade while the 185s were in use, these would have been timed for 100 normally.

Starmill said:

My guess (and this is just a guess) is that in the next timetable these will all go over to 100 miles / hour paths, and there will be a deal of tweaking to improve things. I would hope that the restoration of the Lancaster calls could result from this. For almost a decade while the 185s were in use, these would have been timed for 100 normally.

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Not only will 195s be 100mph but also have faster acceleration than 185s.