Class 800 upgrades to address performance and reliability issues

coppercapped · 9 Jul 2019

Thunderer said:
If more 9 than 5 cars were built a scenario like this would not have such an impact at rush hour out of Paddington, but there we are, Mr Grayling and the DFT know best GWR passengers should brace themselves for a shoddy service for many years to come.

A point of order!

The Department for Transport issued the Invitation to Tender for the IEP trains in November 2007 when Ruth Kelly (Labour) was Secretary of State for Transport. In the event the Department closed the contract to supply trains for the Great Western and East Coast mainlines some four and a half years later in July 2012. By this time the Government had changed and Patrick McLoughlin (Conservative) was the SoS.

Not much to do with Mr Grayling...

...or the colour of the Government.

RailUK Forums

FGW_DID · 9 Jul 2019

Goldfish62 said:
Yesterday afternoon there were no less than six 5 vice 10 departures from Paddington between 17.00 and 18.00.

General inside view seems to be that last summer's overheating problems that had supposedly been resolved have returned again this year.

Thunderer said:
If more 9 than 5 cars were built a scenario like this would not have such an impact at rush hour out of Paddington, but there we are, Mr Grayling and the DFT know best GWR passengers should brace themselves for a shoddy service for many years to come.

Really, if those units were 9 cars and OOS due to overheating then there would be cancellations not short forms!
Why isn’t there a banging a head against a brick wall emoticon, it would probably be the most used, especially in any thread dealing with the 80X.

Railperf · 9 Jul 2019

FGW_DID said:
Really, if those units were 9 cars and OOS due to overheating then there would be cancellations not short forms!
Why isn’t there a banging a head against a brick wall emoticon, it would probably be the most used, especially in any thread dealing with the 80X.

Thats exactly what i was just thinking. Fewer 9 cars would definitely mean cacellations!!

Railperf · 10 Jul 2019

The short formations are making the news. This is embarrasing for GWR and Hitachi..

https://www.getreading.co.uk/news/reading-berkshire-news/live-gwr-passengers-face-packed-16560024

hexagon789 · 10 Jul 2019

Railperf said:
The short formations are making the news. This is embarrasing for GWR and Hitachi..

https://www.getreading.co.uk/news/reading-berkshire-news/live-gwr-passengers-face-packed-16560024

Let's hope the bad press persuades them do do something about it then.

PHILIPE · 10 Jul 2019

hexagon789 said:
Let's hope the bad press persuades them do do something about it then.

And a major perpetrator, the DFT, will escape criticism as usual

hexagon789 · 10 Jul 2019

PHILIPE said:
And a major perpetrator, the DFT, will escape criticism as usual

Quite possibly but it's GWR/Hitachi who run/maintain them for everyday service.

coppercapped · 10 Jul 2019

hexagon789 said:
Quite possibly but it's GWR/Hitachi who run/maintain them for everyday service.

I don't normally rush to defend GWR, but in this case GWR would be quite happy to run them - if Agility Trains/Hitachi could deliver them.

At the moment Hitachi seems signally unable to do so...

...and anecdata suggest that the situation is not getting better. Unless Hitachi gets its act together within the next three to four weeks I wouldn't bet on a smooth transition to the December timetable.

hexagon789 · 10 Jul 2019

coppercapped said:
I don't normally rush to defend GWR, but in this case GWR would be quite happy to run them - if Agility Trains/Hitachi could deliver them.

Fair enough, I was blurring the distinction a bit.

coppercapped said:
At the moment Hitachi seems signally unable to do so...

...and anecdata suggests that the situation is not getting better. Unless Hitachi gets its act together within the next three to four weeks I wouldn't bet on a smooth transition to the December timetable.

In which case hopefully any continued bad press put pressure on GWR to put pressure on Hitachi to get things sorted.

Railperf · 10 Jul 2019

hexagon789 said:
Fair enough, I was blurring the distinction a bit.

In which case hopefully any continued bad press put pressure on GWR to put pressure on Hitachi to get things sorted.

Actually the buck really stops with Hitachi and MTU with regards to reliability. Cancelling a large part of the electrification scheme which has caused extended running on diesel was the decision of the DFT and the consequence of that decision has been increased unreliability. After all part of the reasons to go electric was to increase reliability.
Gwr are only using the equipment that they've been given.

voyagerdude220 · 10 Jul 2019

1A93 14:00 Penzance to London Paddington currently around 88 late due to an unspecified train fault and terminating at Reading.

FGW_DID · 10 Jul 2019

voyagerdude220 said:
1A93 14:00 Penzance to London Paddington currently around 88 late due to an unspecified train fault and terminating at Reading.

802016 & 022

Engines! (No prizes for guessing what’s happened to them)

43096 · 10 Jul 2019

Railperf said:
Gwr are only using the equipment that they've been given.

Not entirely. Yes, they were given the 800s, but GWR decided to order the 802s.

hexagon789 · 10 Jul 2019

Railperf said:
Actually the buck really stops with Hitachi and MTU with regards to reliability. Cancelling a large part of the electrification scheme which has caused extended running on diesel was the decision of the DFT and the consequence of that decision has been increased unreliability. After all part of the reasons to go electric was to increase reliability.
Gwr are only using the equipment that they've been given.

Of course, it's so easy to blame GWR and indeed I'm guilty of that. GWR can only provide what Hitachi provides them with in turn but I do take the point about the cut back electrification, the diesels are being pushed more than planned and that will not help.

northernbelle · 10 Jul 2019

43096 said:
Not entirely. Yes, they were given the 800s, but GWR decided to order the 802s.

It did. And Hitachi signed a contract which made them liable for providing a train within a specification. If the design does not meet the agreed specification, it is in Hitachi's court, not GWR's.

If issues (as some are) are caused by crew unfamiliarity/training, then yes, GWR should accept some responsibility.

Pete_uk · 11 Jul 2019

Why are 001 and 002 still not in service?

FGW_DID · 11 Jul 2019

Pete_uk said:
Why are 001 and 002 still not in service?

Last mentioned on the now closed main 800 thread, both are currently being refitted for passenger use. 002 i seem to recall will be the first to emerge.

Goldfish62 · 12 Jul 2019

1A85 10.00 PNZ to PADD is 5 vice 9 today. It was already heavily reserved throughout.

irish_rail · 12 Jul 2019

Goldfish62 said:
1A85 10.00 PNZ to PADD is 5 vice 9 today. It was already heavily reserved throughout.

Oh well I'm sure the people standing for 3 hours plus will just be happy and grateful to GWR that their train turned up ......

Siemens Staines · 12 Jul 2019

It seems to be one of many short forms today. The 1603 Paddington - Penzance and 1833 Paddington - Plymouth amongst them for a Friday evening;

07:48 Paignton to London Paddington due 11:39
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

09:54 Great Malvern to London Paddington due 12:28
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

10:00 Penzance to London Paddington due 15:22
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

11:06 London Paddington to Bedwyn due 12:22
Will be formed of 2 coaches instead of 5.

12:33 London Paddington to Taunton due 14:34
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

12:36 Bedwyn to London Paddington due 13:54 will be terminated at Reading.
Will be formed of 2 coaches instead of 5.

12:50 London Paddington to Oxford due 13:50
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

15:01 Oxford to London Paddington due 15:59
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

15:33 Taunton to London Paddington due 17:53
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

16:03 London Paddington to Penzance due 21:29
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

16:22 London Paddington to Great Malvern due 19:24
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

18:33 London Paddington to Plymouth due 22:11
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

19:42 Great Malvern to London Paddington due 22:29
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

irish_rail · 12 Jul 2019

Siemens Staines said:
It seems to be one of many short forms today. The 1603 Paddington - Penzance and 1833 Paddington - Plymouth amongst them for a Friday evening;

07:48 Paignton to London Paddington due 11:39
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

09:54 Great Malvern to London Paddington due 12:28
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

10:00 Penzance to London Paddington due 15:22
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

11:06 London Paddington to Bedwyn due 12:22
Will be formed of 2 coaches instead of 5.

12:33 London Paddington to Taunton due 14:34
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

12:36 Bedwyn to London Paddington due 13:54 will be terminated at Reading.
Will be formed of 2 coaches instead of 5.

12:50 London Paddington to Oxford due 13:50
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

15:01 Oxford to London Paddington due 15:59
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

15:33 Taunton to London Paddington due 17:53
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

16:03 London Paddington to Penzance due 21:29
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

16:22 London Paddington to Great Malvern due 19:24
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

18:33 London Paddington to Plymouth due 22:11
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

19:42 Great Malvern to London Paddington due 22:29
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

It seems the Cotswold and the South West seem to be bearing the brunt with the full length trains reserved for the shortest routes to Wales and bristol, why am I not surprised.........

ATW158Xpress · 12 Jul 2019

irish_rail said:
It seems the Cotswold and the South West seem to be bearing the brunt with the full length trains reserved for the shortest routes to Wales and bristol, why am I not surprised.........

The Bristol and South Wales (as far as Cardiff) get a half hourly service and the rest of the routes get hourly service.

Clarence Yard · 12 Jul 2019

irish_rail said:
It seems the Cotswold and the South West seem to be bearing the brunt with the full length trains reserved for the shortest routes to Wales and bristol, why am I not surprised.........

It's more down to how the fleet misbalances occur each night/early morning and the contractual matrix. There is next to no choice about what you do - it's largely a choice of which services coming off that depot do you have to shortform? For example, if you are quite short of 5 car 802's, the South West is probably going to get hit.

If you try and be too clever about deployment in these circumstances, you could be in danger of sending the wrong units to a depot the following night, which could then worsen the problem for the next day.

All the time, of course, having to deal with out of course failures and getting them back to (the right) depot.

HOOVER29 · 12 Jul 2019

Siemens Staines said:
It seems to be one of many short forms today. The 1603 Paddington - Penzance and 1833 Paddington - Plymouth amongst them for a Friday evening;

07:48 Paignton to London Paddington due 11:39
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

09:54 Great Malvern to London Paddington due 12:28
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

10:00 Penzance to London Paddington due 15:22
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

11:06 London Paddington to Bedwyn due 12:22
Will be formed of 2 coaches instead of 5.

12:33 London Paddington to Taunton due 14:34
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

12:36 Bedwyn to London Paddington due 13:54 will be terminated at Reading.
Will be formed of 2 coaches instead of 5.

12:50 London Paddington to Oxford due 13:50
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

15:01 Oxford to London Paddington due 15:59
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

15:33 Taunton to London Paddington due 17:53
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

16:03 London Paddington to Penzance due 21:29
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

16:22 London Paddington to Great Malvern due 19:24
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

18:33 London Paddington to Plymouth due 22:11
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

19:42 Great Malvern to London Paddington due 22:29
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

All those nice long hsts sets they’ve just stood down too just sitting at Ely gathering dust.
Shame.
Glad I don’t live on the Western region.

irish_rail · 12 Jul 2019

ATW158Xpress said:
The Bristol and South Wales (as far as Cardiff) get a half hourly service and the rest of the routes get hourly service.

All the more reason to short form those services and not those to the South West.
Although as Clarence yard points out the poor contract leaves GWRs hands a little tied. But I can't see this ever changing as long as we are relying on 5 car sets to make 10 car sets etc it's a recipe for poor performance.

hexagon789 · 12 Jul 2019

Siemens Staines said:
It seems to be one of many short forms today. The 1603 Paddington - Penzance and 1833 Paddington - Plymouth amongst them for a Friday evening;

07:48 Paignton to London Paddington due 11:39
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

09:54 Great Malvern to London Paddington due 12:28
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

10:00 Penzance to London Paddington due 15:22
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

11:06 London Paddington to Bedwyn due 12:22
Will be formed of 2 coaches instead of 5.

12:33 London Paddington to Taunton due 14:34
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

12:36 Bedwyn to London Paddington due 13:54 will be terminated at Reading.
Will be formed of 2 coaches instead of 5.

12:50 London Paddington to Oxford due 13:50
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

15:01 Oxford to London Paddington due 15:59
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

15:33 Taunton to London Paddington due 17:53
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

16:03 London Paddington to Penzance due 21:29
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

16:22 London Paddington to Great Malvern due 19:24
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

18:33 London Paddington to Plymouth due 22:11
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

19:42 Great Malvern to London Paddington due 22:29
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

Is that normal, because that looks like a lot?

cactustwirly · 12 Jul 2019

hexagon789 said:
Is that normal, because that looks like a lot?

No it's not, normally there's hardly any shortforms at all

ohgoditsjames · 12 Jul 2019

Criminal that the HST’s have been taken out of service to be replaced by this...

hexagon789 · 12 Jul 2019

cactustwirly said:
No it's not, normally there's hardly any shortforms at all

Just as well, I hate to have to deal with that one a regular basis.

ohgoditsjames said:
Criminal that the HST’s have been taken out of service to be replaced by this...

They had to go at some point.

ohgoditsjames · 12 Jul 2019

hexagon789 said:
They had to go at some point.

Yes they did/do but not until the major issues and teething problems are resolved with the new stock replacing them. It’s asinine to completely withdrawn existing stock with blatantly inadequate new stock.
I dread the day when the HST’s are withdrawn from the MML.

Class 800 upgrades to address performance and reliability issues

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