On the freights passing by me here in Witham on the East Anglia main line to and from Felixstowe, I see a mix of diesel and electric locos. (Aside: Electrics are sometimes doubled-up but never diesels.) I'm a great fan of it isn't broken don't fix it, but these locos must be about 50 years old. Is there an comfortable surplus of stock? Are they going to reach the end of their life and be replaced by new electrics? Or are we witnessing the twilight of a traction era?
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
General state of electric loco fleet
- Thread starter Peter Fox
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Photohunter71
Member
What a very good topic! I'm sure there are class 90's which are able to be used as well as 92's. 88's and 93's seem to be the future, so watch that space!
I was looking forward to there being new electric locomotives in the mix when there was the prospect of the Bombardier TRAXX loco being ordered. That sadly didn't happen. Maybe someone will shed some light on this matter.
I was looking forward to there being new electric locomotives in the mix when there was the prospect of the Bombardier TRAXX loco being ordered. That sadly didn't happen. Maybe someone will shed some light on this matter.
Photohunter71
Member
Just out of curiosity, how many 86's are still operational?
sprinterguy
Established Member
16 with Freightliner, 2 with Caledonian Sleeper (for now) and 1 privately owned. There's also 9 in Hungary and 7 in Bulgaria, though I believe one of each is stored.
Last edited:
Alanko
Member
Case in point, 87002 in my avatar!
I think this is something to be celebrated. They either built these locos correctly the first time or the design (by accident or design?) was future-proofed enough to allow upgrades to take place. I think much the same when people complain that the Scotrail HSTs are '40 year old trains'. Surely getting this much use out of a design is something to celebrate, rather than binning trains every ten years and starting fresh?
I think this is something to be celebrated. They either built these locos correctly the first time or the design (by accident or design?) was future-proofed enough to allow upgrades to take place. I think much the same when people complain that the Scotrail HSTs are '40 year old trains'. Surely getting this much use out of a design is something to celebrate, rather than binning trains every ten years and starting fresh?
squizzler
Established Member
In a way GB are fortunate to have been blessed with sufficient classic electrics whose life expiry has coincided with the development of bi-mode and tri-mode tech which allow a quantum jump in versatility over electric locos, even those as good as TRAXX.
87015
Established Member
That’s nonsense, it’s been “blessed” with a industry structure that has resulted in 20 years of the vast majority of freight on core electric arteries being diesels under the wires which is why there aren’t more modern electrics!
43096
On Moderation
- Joined
- 23 Nov 2015
- Messages
- 15,294
GBRf, not Caledonian Sleeper.
ac6000cw
Established Member
Electric locos tend to have a longer life than diesels anyway, as they are simpler machines with much fewer moving parts - eventually it gets uneconomic to repair them, but if (as is the case with the 86's) there were originally many more built, you can always stockpile the used spares from withdrawn/scrapped locos to keep a small fleet going for some time.
(When these were retired in 1995, they were nearly 77 years old! - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CN_Boxcab_Electric )
(When these were retired in 1995, they were nearly 77 years old! - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CN_Boxcab_Electric )
ac6000cw
Established Member
I strongly suspect that we won't see any more straight electric locos built for freight in the UK - it'll be bi- or tri- mode units, probably Co-Co, but these will be expensive beasts due to their complexity, so making the financial numbers stack up is hard.
Maybe a bit of inventive 'add-on' engineering might happen one day, to add a 'driving pantograph power trailer' permanently coupled to one end of a 66, feeding power into its traction system when under OHLE?
Maybe a bit of inventive 'add-on' engineering might happen one day, to add a 'driving pantograph power trailer' permanently coupled to one end of a 66, feeding power into its traction system when under OHLE?
cactustwirly
Established Member
I'm hoping that Freightliner eventually orders a batch of UK gauge Vectron locos from Siemens, but I guess that's more of a pipedream atm
ac6000cw
Established Member
Sensibly, they'd buy 88's from Stadler as that is an existing, approved, design for the UK (or a straight electric version of it). Depends really on how many AC-drive axles they might need over Shap and Beattock.
sprinterguy
Established Member
True, though they're (Recently remembered there's actually 2 of them!) employed on ECS movements of the 'legacy' Caledonian Sleeper stock, and technically I believe that GBRf are leasing them from the AC Locomotive Group through Electric Traction Limited.
cactustwirly
Established Member
I guess so, but a Stadler Eurolight is a bit boring tbh, even a Bombardier TRAXX is more exciting.
Maybe I like euro locos a bit too much!
HSTEd
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 14 Jul 2011
- Messages
- 16,727
Electric locomotives really don't fit with the business models of the freight operators in the UK.
There is no reason to be ordering Bo-Bo electrics or bi-modes because there really is no traffic for them.
If you want electric traction to go somewhere you need a Co-Co bimode with at least 3000hp under diesel power.
There is no reason to be ordering Bo-Bo electrics or bi-modes because there really is no traffic for them.
If you want electric traction to go somewhere you need a Co-Co bimode with at least 3000hp under diesel power.
furnessvale
Established Member
- Joined
- 14 Jul 2015
- Messages
- 4,582
My thoughts exactly. Given the electric power they can fit into a class 88, I see no reason why a Co-Co, or even a Co-Bo or Bo-Bo-Bo, version could not carry the extra weight of a decent diesel engine.
hexagon789
Veteran Member
Perhaps the new 93s in the pipeline?
43096
On Moderation
- Joined
- 23 Nov 2015
- Messages
- 15,294
No different from GBRf leasing locos from Eversholt, Porterbrook or Beacon in that sense. They just carry a customer livery, as some 66s do.
furnessvale
Established Member
- Joined
- 14 Jul 2015
- Messages
- 4,582
Getting closer.
Ditch the batteries, put at least one more axle underneath, fit a bigger diesel engine and you have cracked it!
hexagon789
Veteran Member
And perhaps reduce the gearing back to 100 or less. I don't know how much is feasible power-wise from a diesel in one of those - 2000hp; higher?
The problem in the UK is the lack of electrified routes; it is expensive to have two locos, one diesel and one electric, with crews, when one will suffice. On the continent, there is much more electrification, and most freight trains there are electric hauled but the price of power is still an issue and one over which operators have little control. When in Australia a few years ago, I saw that the use of electric locos for coal traffic through the electrified Sydney suburban area had ceased and all coal trains were diesel-hauled throughout.
hexagon789
Veteran Member
Which is as equally nonsensical as it is here.
sprinterguy
Established Member
Good point, hadn't thought about it like that. I guess I always just think of them as Caledonian Sleeper locos, despite being simultaneously aware that the traction contract is with GBRf.
43096
On Moderation
- Joined
- 23 Nov 2015
- Messages
- 15,294
A UK gauge version of these beasts is what you’re after: https://www.stadlerrail.com/media/pdf/leurodualhvle0317e.pdf
It combines the Class 68 engine with a 7MW electric loco, though 5MW would be more than sufficient for UK use (same as a Class 92).
hexagon789
Veteran Member
Might as well keep the 7MW, could come in handy!
43096
On Moderation
- Joined
- 23 Nov 2015
- Messages
- 15,294
Would melt the knitting in all likelihood, though!
Might have to sacrifice that to fit in a stretched 68/88 chassis.
hexagon789
Veteran Member
Possibly, but is 7MW really that much more than current locos that it would do damage?
hexagon789
Veteran Member
Is the 93 to the same dimensions?
- Status