Bus Manufacturer News & Discussion

kevjs said:

Ah, those things really were rubbish weren't they - our route was supposed to have the rattly Versas (they made the Cross Country Turbostars sound like they were well put together in comparison) but more often than not something else was subbing...
That rattling was so bad I ended up switching to cycling to work - IIRC it was during the Versa times that the route dropped out the Go2 brand and went from every 10 to every 12 minutes (the Versa predecessors always used to be rammed, as did the Versa's on introduction, but passenger usage did noticeably decline over those five years and IME hasn't recovered)

The Solo's they replaced them with were less modern looking but didn't sound like they were falling to bits.



Their major competitor is still majority publicly owned by the City Council and was the first operator in the UK to support contactless (note here I'm not talking the debit card variant) - so to keep up with them while operating buses exclusively on longer distance journeys you need to do something to keep up. Coupled with that you have the city with the fastest growing bus passenger usage outside of London and a city council that actually bothers investing in the bus infrastructure (Real time displays for around 15 years, a huge expansion of bus lanes and pus priority across the city and removing general motor traffic from the city centre). The DFT and City Council have paid to roll out proper-Contactless payments across the city transport network this year too.

As for WiFi and USB - ISTR NCT saying on their social feeds this was funded by advertising when you use the onboard WiFi so is effectivly a freebie

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Often than not, much older Optare Solos and later full-size OmniCities and OmniLinks were frequently replacing the Versas. They were not comfortable either as they had the worst suspension I have ever come across.

I'm assuming you are talking about the 11 when that did have Versas? 314-318 (319 was a GO2 spare) were dedicated to the 11 from 2008 and at the time, all of the Versas were based at Trent Bridge before 2011 when NCT announced a large order for Optare Solo SRs and major network changes.

All of the Versas after 2011 transferred over to Parliament Street, and came around the time the 11 received 5 new Optare Solo SRs (330-334) and at the time retained an Every 10 Minute service (went to Every 12 Minutes due to BSOG cuts in 2012 with 330 transferred to the 5/7/8/9, which saw the 6 and 10 also affected with reduced frequencies.) Lilac Line 21 became the Blue Line 39 which saw the OmniCities replaced by Versas from the 11. Pretty much the rest is history...

The Optare Solo SRs were definitely a step-up and did not have the same issues as they went with Cummins engines, but deliveries from Optare were seriously behind schedule which delayed the withdrawal of the Dennis Tridents and saw the OmniCities from the 21 prematurely re-entering service before they were refurbished.

Think we definitely had it lucky in Nottingham as we have two bus operators that are innovative with a City Council encouraging the use of public transport by investing heavily on infrastructure.

Jordan Adam said:

The Omnidekka & Omnicity DD were appalling products. Especially in terms of seating layout with that stupid extra row crammed in downstairs at the back.

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The OmniDekka wasn't entirely awful (the N230UD/N270UD I can agree are awful as we had 5 from East Lancs before they went bust which were riddled with problems, 16 during the Darwen Group era which solved some of the production issues and the rest from Optare); what they lacked in quality (East Lancs & Optare don't equal quality!) it made up for with performance and reliability. NCT have just withdrawn their last N94UD with one now in preservation and outlasted the Dennis Tridents, probably helped that Keltruck was just down the road! The earliest batch were spartan but were a step-up from the East Lancs Lolynes they replaced.

Can agree with the OmniCity DD, they are truly awful buses... Cheap looking interior and full of rattles.

Speedbird96 said:

The OmniDekka wasn't entirely awful (the N230UD/N270UD I can agree are awful as we had 5 from East Lancs before they went bust which were riddled with problems, 16 during the Darwen Group era which solved some of the production issues and the rest from Optare); what they lacked in quality (East Lancs & Optare don't equal quality!) it made up for with performance and reliability. NCT have just withdrawn their last N94UD with one now in preservation and outlasted the Dennis Tridents, probably helped that Keltruck was just down the road! The earliest batch were spartan but were a step-up from the East Lancs Lolynes they replaced.

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Most people I spoke to would rate the Scania N94UD based Omnidekkas as better than the N230/N270 ones, especially the ones at the end of the ELC days where there was a feeling of corners were being cut to save money.

I see a lot of you talk of the firm suspension of the OmniCity and OmniLink.
A lot of drivers will tell you these are great to drive because they hold the road so well; this is due to the firm suspension.
A bus with soft suspension will be much less stable, especially at speed and in curves. You can’t have a marshmallow suspension AND a race car handling; you have to choose one or try to find the best compromise. Scania went for chassis stability, and I feel that was the right decision. A firm suspension also helps the bus stay on a snowy/icy road without slipping, and Scania being a Swedish company, that choice makes even more sense.

TRAX said:

I see a lot of you talk of the firm suspension of the OmniCity and OmniLink.
A lot of drivers will tell you these are great to drive because they hold the road so well; this is due to the firm suspension.
A bus with soft suspension will be much less stable, especially at speed and in curves. You can’t have a marshmallow suspension AND a race car handling; you have to choose one or try to find the best compromise. Scania went for chassis stability, and I feel that was the right decision. A firm suspension also helps the bus stay on a snowy/icy road without slipping, and Scania being a Swedish company, that choice makes even more sense.

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But that's not so great on our speed humped and pot-holed roads. Passengers will feel every thud and bump, and that's not great for comfort or for anyone with back pain. I've found this issue is more pronounced with low-floor buses.

Indeed you are right.

Speedbird96 said:

I'm assuming you are talking about the 11 when that did have Versas? ... (went to Every 12 Minutes due to BSOG cuts in 2012 with 330 transferred to the 5/7/8/9, which saw the 6 and 10 also affected with reduced frequencies.) ...

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Yeah, that's the one, didn't realise they replaced the buses with new and later dropped the frequency - but by that point I'd given up being a daily bus passenger so the memory is a bit more hazy.

Lilac Line 21 became the Blue Line 39 which saw the OmniCities replaced by Versas from the 11. Pretty much the rest is history...

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Thought I'd recognised the numbers when the new Blue Lines' came along.

The Optare Solo SRs were definitely a step-up and did not have the same issues as they went with Cummins engines, but deliveries from Optare were seriously behind schedule which delayed the withdrawal of the Dennis Tridents and saw the OmniCities from the 21 prematurely re-entering service before they were refurbished.

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Think I'm odd in being one of the few people missing the Lime Line bendy buses, not been on anything as nice since I moved away from Mansfield road (The 4 being a rag tag of ancient buses running infrequently when I moved to West Bridgford for my final year of uni - the UniLink 4 came along the following year) - plenty of leg room, easily able to swallow peak hour passengers and always felt spacious and reasonably comfy (unlike the Solo's where I can only sit in the 3 seats at the back right of the bus next to the emergency doors, or in the reserved seating) - much better than whatever claustrophobic double decker things were running on the Purple line down Mansfield Road around that time (2002-2003)

Think we definitely had it lucky in Nottingham as we have two bus operators that are innovative with a City Council encouraging the use of public transport by investing heavily on infrastructure.

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This is very true!

I had a ride on an E400MMC today. No rattling whatsoever, very comfortable, like it was gliding over the numerous potholes in the area.

Go Ahead NE had the E400MMC demonstrator here for a bit, compared to the new Wrightbus deckers they use, I cannot understand why they didn't go with ADL, half of their Wrights are slow, noisy and sound like they are stuck in 2nd gear constantly, the ADL was quiet and better suited to the tasks.

Swanny200 said:

Go Ahead NE had the E400MMC demonstrator here for a bit, compared to the new Wrightbus deckers they use, I cannot understand why they didn't go with ADL, half of their Wrights are slow, noisy and sound like they are stuck in 2nd gear constantly, the ADL was quiet and better suited to the tasks.

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Probably cost!

TheGrandWazoo said:

Probably cost!

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Probably, It would be interesting to see what GA have up their sleeve next for new buses here, the Citaro's are coming up to 8 to 10 years old and some of them have bitten the dust due to fire, their Omnicity's even older and from what I can gather from a couple of the drivers, they hate the streetlites. Double deck wise they have had the E400MMC and I'm sure they had the Optare decker here for a while too, but the last order was for the Wright streetdecks.

Some interesting views reading the worst sort of bus; the worst for me would be the Turkish TEMSA Avenues in service with Arriva NE. If you think the low cost offerings from the UK manufacturers are bad, you should sample one of those heaps. When they first launched, Arriva NE had a press release terming them "Turkish Delight". They quickly earned the nickname "Turkish Alight" do their tenancy to self-immolate for a time after their introduction. They have pretty dreadful interiors to boot.

Regarding air-con I do think it is increaosnaly necessary addition for passenger confomrt and to attract people away from their cars, and a decent full HVAC (Heating, ventilation, and air conditioning) system would provide a thermostatically controlled temperature thought the year.

Any news on when the diesel Optare Metrodeckers for Reading will be delivered? Will they come before the EV versions for Metroline?

danielnez1 said:

Some interesting views reading the worst sort of bus; the worst for me would be the Turkish TEMSA Avenues in service with Arriva NE. If you think the low cost offerings from the UK manufacturers are bad, you should sample one of those heaps. When they first launched, Arriva NE had a press release terming them "Turkish Delight". They quickly earned the nickname "Turkish Alight" do their tenancy to self-immolate for a time after their introduction. They have pretty dreadful interiors to boot.

Regarding air-con I do think it is increaosnaly necessary addition for passenger confomrt and to attract people away from their cars, and a decent full HVAC (Heating, ventilation, and air conditioning) system would provide a thermostatically controlled temperature thought the year.

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No offence but i'm going to put this fairly blatant. Fitting A/C on a bus is not going to get passengers out their car. A/C systems just create even more backlog for the workshop and as such quite often don't work anyway.

One of the main reasons our Enviro500's had it turned off (besides fuel savings) was due to unreliability, quite often in the summer it would be stuck on the hottest setting. the lack of hopper windows at the time meant you were really just sitting in a greenhouse. Passengers much prefer the current Air-Chill and hopper window system.

MotCO said:

Any news on when the diesel Optare Metrodeckers for Reading will be delivered? Will they come before the EV versions for Metroline?

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The first couple of MetroDecker EVs have just been delivered to Metroline: https://www.flickr.com/photos/127662272@N07/48233191772/

borage said:

The first couple of MetroDecker EVs have just been delivered to Metroline: https://www.flickr.com/photos/127662272@N07/48233191772/

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Oh wow they've actually managed to deliver a production model! Pigs do fly...

The styling of the Metrodecker is a little underwhelming. I recall when they unveiled the Rapta concept - it certainly had a striking appearance at the time and, in my opinion, the current ADL MMC has a certain similarity.

GusB said:

The styling of the Metrodecker is a little underwhelming. I recall when they unveiled the Rapta concept - it certainly had a striking appearance at the time and, in my opinion, the current ADL MMC has a certain similarity.

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The issue in my view with the Metrodecker was that it was already outdated by the time it was launched. The Rapta concept to me actually looks more current than the Metrodecker does.

When I think about it, Optare seemed pretty much ahead of the pack in terms of styling. In the early days, maybe not so much - boxy bodies on Dennis Domino and Leyland Cub chassis and "badge engineered" Roe bodies on Olympians - but I recall seeing a Delta demonstrator on my local route one night, and in comparison with what was on the road at the time, it was positively space-age. The Solo was another product that stood out when it was introduced, especially when most smaller buses were still step-entrance Mercs with Alexander AM/ALX100 or Reeve Burgess/Plaxton Beaver bodies.

GusB said:

When I think about it, Optare seemed pretty much ahead of the pack in terms of styling. In the early days, maybe not so much - boxy bodies on Dennis Domino and Leyland Cub chassis and "badge engineered" Roe bodies on Olympians - but I recall seeing a Delta demonstrator on my local route one night, and in comparison with what was on the road at the time, it was positively space-age. The Solo was another product that stood out when it was introduced, especially when most smaller buses were still step-entrance Mercs with Alexander AM/ALX100 or Reeve Burgess/Plaxton Beaver bodies.

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Agreed, although the later Spectra's were very outdated at a design perspective compared to the likes of the Gemini. Even the current Solo SR and Versa were pretty ahead and don't yet look outdated despite both being over a decade old.

I think the Metrodecka is not too bad. Having driven one its not a bad product. The dash is easy i did not even need any explanation on starting sequence. It may look dated but i would prefer it than a Street deck. Thats my opinion anyway.

MotCO said:

Any news on when the diesel Optare Metrodeckers for Reading will be delivered? Will they come before the EV versions for Metroline?

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I think delivery of the Reading ones has now slipped/been put back until October.

GusB said:

When I think about it, Optare seemed pretty much ahead of the pack in terms of styling. In the early days, maybe not so much - boxy bodies on Dennis Domino and Leyland Cub chassis and "badge engineered" Roe bodies on Olympians - but I recall seeing a Delta demonstrator on my local route one night, and in comparison with what was on the road at the time, it was positively space-age. The Solo was another product that stood out when it was introduced, especially when most smaller buses were still step-entrance Mercs with Alexander AM/ALX100 or Reeve Burgess/Plaxton Beaver bodies.

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Absolutely agree. When formed, it didn’t indicate it would be so innovative in styling...and then the CityPacer appeared.

When they get it right, they’ve been superb - Delta, Solo, but they’ve had a lot of absolute pups in terms of reliability - Alero, Vecta, Excel mk1

Swanny200 said:

Go Ahead NE had the E400MMC demonstrator here for a bit, compared to the new Wrightbus deckers they use, I cannot understand why they didn't go with ADL, half of their Wrights are slow, noisy and sound like they are stuck in 2nd gear constantly, the ADL was quiet and better suited to the tasks.

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So I take it you haven't seen the announced order for 3 low-height E400s due in the autumn then (for a route that presently has a PVR of 3 but from next Sunday, a PVR of 4 - old habits die hard!) along with 30 Streetdecks all bound for Consett to upgrade all but the 'Durham Diamond' routes to the new 'XLines' standard. Alongside an additional Streetdeck due to assist with modifications to the older batches - that example shall be the first example in the UK with the 6-cylinder engine fitted to the examples out in Hong Kong.

Swanny200 said:

Probably, It would be interesting to see what GA have up their sleeve next for new buses here, the Citaro's are coming up to 8 to 10 years old and some of them have bitten the dust due to fire, their Omnicity's even older and from what I can gather from a couple of the drivers, they hate the streetlites. Double deck wise they have had the E400MMC and I'm sure they had the Optare decker here for a while too, but the last order was for the Wright streetdecks.

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E200MMCs - 11 due in the autumn for service 97.

Jordan Adam said:

No offence but i'm going to put this fairly blatant. Fitting A/C on a bus is not going to get passengers out their car. A/C systems just create even more backlog for the workshop and as such quite often don't work anyway.

One of the main reasons our Enviro500's had it turned off (besides fuel savings) was due to unreliability, quite often in the summer it would be stuck on the hottest setting. the lack of hopper windows at the time meant you were really just sitting in a greenhouse. Passengers much prefer the current Air-Chill and hopper window system.

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I wouldn't be so naive with regards to A/C; if an operator can advertise their buses has having a more comfortable travelling environment, along with other bells sand whistles like Wi-Fi etc, I am sure it will attract some new users. Of course it will not attract all from their cars en masse.

Kuyoyo said:

So I take it you haven't seen the announced order for 3 low-height E400s due in the autumn then (for a route that presently has a PVR of 3 but from next Sunday, a PVR of 4 - old habits die hard!) along with 30 Streetdecks all bound for Consett to upgrade all but the 'Durham Diamond' routes to the new 'XLines' standard. Alongside an additional Streetdeck due to assist with modifications to the older batches - that example shall be the first example in the UK with the 6-cylinder engine fitted to the examples out in Hong Kong.



E200MMCs - 11 due in the autumn for service 97.

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No I didn't hear of new orders, that is good to know thanks

Wrights to me have gone badly backwards in recent years. Yes the market has demanded cheaper/lighter bodies, but the effect has been to badly lessen their product when ADL have upped their game with the MMC bodywork. Their desire to produce integrals has also impacted their relationship with Volvo I imagine, MCV have taken a lot of London Volvo double decker business in recent years.

GusB said:

The styling of the Metrodecker is a little underwhelming. I recall when they unveiled the Rapta concept - it certainly had a striking appearance at the time and, in my opinion, the current ADL MMC has a certain similarity.

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There was also the Solo+ which looks a lot like the streetvibe. I think someone coppied their unused designs.

LOL The Irony said:

There was also the Solo+ which looks a lot like the streetvibe. I think someone coppied their unused designs.

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The Solo+ looks nothing like a Streetvibe.

Not my photos.

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Jordan Adam said:

The Solo+ looks nothing like a Streetvibe.

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I got confused with the wf streetlite.

ADL as you know have launched an ADL E400 hydrogen. Liverpool have ordered some, when are they due? Will they make a ADL E200 Hydrogen? Will Wright make a hydrogen single deck?