• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Bus Manufacturer News & Discussion

aswilliamsuk

Member
Joined
10 Jul 2016
Messages
170
ADL as you know have launched an ADL E400 hydrogen. Liverpool have ordered some, when are they due? Will they make a ADL E200 Hydrogen? Will Wright make a hydrogen single deck?
Wrightbus have already made a Hydrogen single deck - what is now Tower Transit have the eight of them that were used on the RV1 in London, now moved to the 444 for the next year or so. There were no more, mind.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Jordan Adam

Established Member
Joined
12 Sep 2017
Messages
5,514
Location
Aberdeen
Wrightbus have already made a Hydrogen single deck - what is now Tower Transit have the eight of them that were used on the RV1 in London, now moved to the 444 for the next year or so. There were no more, mind.

Those are now out of production iirc. When it comes to the double deckers Wright are ahead of ADL with Wright currently having orders for Aberdeen, Birmingham and London as part of JIVE2. Unfortunately ADL were too late.
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
6,830
Those are now out of production iirc. When it comes to the double deckers Wright are ahead of ADL with Wright currently having orders for Aberdeen, Birmingham and London as part of JIVE2. Unfortunately ADL were too late.

I doubt ADL will mind, seeing that they are selling decent numbers of battery powered buses with BYD
 

Jordan Adam

Established Member
Joined
12 Sep 2017
Messages
5,514
Location
Aberdeen
I doubt ADL will mind, seeing that they are selling decent numbers of battery powered buses with BYD

The JIVE2 Streetdeck order is about 50 vehicles (10 Aberdeen, 20 London & 18 Birmingham iirc), so quite substantial given they're Hydrogen powered.
 

cnjb8

Established Member
Joined
26 Feb 2019
Messages
2,113
Location
Nottingham
Abellio London are taking in Caetano CityGolds. Intresting vehicles as these are electric and not gas like existing models with Arriva. Seems a bit out of the blue, is there anything on OLEV?
 

Jordan Adam

Established Member
Joined
12 Sep 2017
Messages
5,514
Location
Aberdeen
Abellio London are taking in Caetano CityGolds. Intresting vehicles as these are electric and not gas like existing models with Arriva. Seems a bit out of the blue, is there anything on OLEV?

Caetano seem to be trying to penetrate the UK market. Aberdeen have secured funding to get 5 more Hydrogen buses on top of the 10 Streetdeck's on order and the council have been in talks with Caetano about them. It seems odd that they're not sticking to one type, i wonder if ADL/Wright will develop new Hydrogen single decker models.
 

LOL The Irony

On Moderation
Joined
29 Jul 2017
Messages
5,335
Location
Chinatown, New York
Abellio London are taking in Caetano CityGolds. Intresting vehicles as these are electric and not gas like existing models with Arriva. Seems a bit out of the blue, is there anything on OLEV?
They have a Scania Euro 5 double deck version in Hong Kong. They sound quite meaty.
 

Jordan Adam

Established Member
Joined
12 Sep 2017
Messages
5,514
Location
Aberdeen
In reply to a post from another thread...
Thanks for that, I'm confused about why some letters are included while others aren't though. Like the hybrids are low-entry too and have the engine at the rear so why are they B5LH and not something like B5LHLER (bus, 5 liter, longitudinal, hybrid, low entry, rear engine)?

Technically speak the B5LH, B7L, B8L & B10L are not low entry but rather low floor. A Low Entry Bus will have a low floor from the front platform that extends at maximum up to the rear axle, where there will then be a step up on to a raise section. "Low Floor" buses however will have the low section of the floor continue right up to the rear.

The reason "low floor" isn't mentioned in the name for the low floor models is because there's no high floor variants. The B7RLE, B8RLE & B10BLE on the other hand all have LE in the name as they are LE "Low Entry" variants of the high floor B7R, B8R & B10B chasis. Bus chassis come in three sections for simple terms we'll call these Front, Middle & Rear. The BxR and BxRLE models share the same high floor rear, however the BxRLE models have a low front/middle portion. The B7RLE for example was made by joining the rear half of the B7R coach chassis with the front half of the low floor B7L chassis.
 

MotCO

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
4,085
I am surprised that Optare don't seem to be selling many buses, compared with the likes of Wright and even MCV. If the Streetlite is so bad, why isn't the Solo selling in better numbers? Why is it taking so long for the Metrodecker to enter squadron service, when someone like MCV comes from nowhere and sells probably over 100 of their EvoSeti double decker? The Optare models do not appear to be too bad - Reading was obviously impressed enough with the Metrodecker to order some after trialling various vehicles. The Metrocity seems to be picking up a few repeat orders - e.g. Traws Cymru. Is Optare poor at marketing, is the pricing unattractive, is the after sales support poor? What is the problem?
 

cnjb8

Established Member
Joined
26 Feb 2019
Messages
2,113
Location
Nottingham
I am surprised that Optare don't seem to be selling many buses, compared with the likes of Wright and even MCV. If the Streetlite is so bad, why isn't the Solo selling in better numbers? Why is it taking so long for the Metrodecker to enter squadron service, when someone like MCV comes from nowhere and sells probably over 100 of their EvoSeti double decker? The Optare models do not appear to be too bad - Reading was obviously impressed enough with the Metrodecker to order some after trialling various vehicles. The Metrocity seems to be picking up a few repeat orders - e.g. Traws Cymru. Is Optare poor at marketing, is the pricing unattractive, is the after sales support poor? What is the problem?
I think StreetLites and MCVs are cheap at the moment. Most customers now go to ADL like TrentBarton.
 

Swanny200

Member
Joined
18 Sep 2010
Messages
665
You also have to think that the Metrodecker is from what I am to understand the Rapta, just with a different front and back end, the Rapta was a demonstrator, (quite a striking demonstrator I might add) that was panned by the bus world. Reading have always had a good understanding with Optare since they started building buses, and have had at least one or two of every optare product. so what Reading buys isn't neccessarily an indication to how Optare are doing. the Solo was groundbreaking in a sense when it first came out with the cab forward design, it worked so much that Wright decided to do it with the Streetlite too, but with every bit of gold Optare strikes, they have a good few failures, the Alero for instance, the tie up's with smaller midi bus companies.
 
Joined
14 Dec 2018
Messages
1,145
In reply to a post from another thread...


Technically speak the B5LH, B7L, B8L & B10L are not low entry but rather low floor. A Low Entry Bus will have a low floor from the front platform that extends at maximum up to the rear axle, where there will then be a step up on to a raise section. "Low Floor" buses however will have the low section of the floor continue right up to the rear.

The reason "low floor" isn't mentioned in the name for the low floor models is because there's no high floor variants. The B7RLE, B8RLE & B10BLE on the other hand all have LE in the name as they are LE "Low Entry" variants of the high floor B7R, B8R & B10B chasis. Bus chassis come in three sections for simple terms we'll call these Front, Middle & Rear. The BxR and BxRLE models share the same high floor rear, however the BxRLE models have a low front/middle portion. The B7RLE for example was made by joining the rear half of the B7R coach chassis with the front half of the low floor B7L chassis.

Right okay, I think I understand! Thanks for the explanation.
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
6,830
I am surprised that Optare don't seem to be selling many buses, compared with the likes of Wright and even MCV. If the Streetlite is so bad, why isn't the Solo selling in better numbers? Why is it taking so long for the Metrodecker to enter squadron service, when someone like MCV comes from nowhere and sells probably over 100 of their EvoSeti double decker? The Optare models do not appear to be too bad - Reading was obviously impressed enough with the Metrodecker to order some after trialling various vehicles. The Metrocity seems to be picking up a few repeat orders - e.g. Traws Cymru. Is Optare poor at marketing, is the pricing unattractive, is the after sales support poor? What is the problem?

It's a lot less risky to buy an MCV body on an established Volvo chassis than it is to buy an Optare integral. By not bodying other chassis, Optare threw away a lot of the business that East Lancs used to get bodying Volvos etc
 

Jordan Adam

Established Member
Joined
12 Sep 2017
Messages
5,514
Location
Aberdeen
It's a lot less risky to buy an MCV body on an established Volvo chassis than it is to buy an Optare integral. By not bodying other chassis, Optare threw away a lot of the business that East Lancs used to get bodying Volvos etc

Even then Optare don't offer Cummins engines on most of their range anymore. I'd say for any body builder right now Cummins engines are really a must have option as they're quite clearly the engine of choice right now. I suspect if Wright introduced Cummins variants of the Streetlite and Streetdeck again they'd maybe get a few more sales.
 

mbonwick

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2006
Messages
6,257
Location
Kendal
Where do you start with Optare?
A dated product range, poor engine offerings, dreadful fuel consumption for their size, hit and (mostly) miss build quality, poor aftersales support. Oh, and you'll pay more for the privilege as well.

Seriously, there's nothing that Optare do that ADL/Wrights and even MCV (now that they're making a concerted effort to gain UK market share) don't do better.
 

Jordan Adam

Established Member
Joined
12 Sep 2017
Messages
5,514
Location
Aberdeen
Where do you start with Optare?
A dated product range, poor engine offerings, dreadful fuel consumption for their size, hit and (mostly) miss build quality, poor aftersales support. Oh, and you'll pay more for the privilege as well.

Seriously, there's nothing that Optare do that ADL/Wrights and even MCV (now that they're making a concerted effort to gain UK market share) don't do better.

Agreed, One of the big things that shows how outdated the Optare range is are the fixed dashboards. In an era where literally every other major manufacturer has adjustable dashboards on their products it seems odd that Optare stick to the moulded fixed dashboards of the late 90s.
 

LOL The Irony

On Moderation
Joined
29 Jul 2017
Messages
5,335
Location
Chinatown, New York
The problem with MCV (and to a similar extent, Wright) is they only offer Volvo chassis which doesn't cater to people who want Scania or Mercedes. MCV used to offer a Mercedes chassis option but for whatever reason, no longer do.
 

GusB

Established Member
Associate Staff
Buses & Coaches
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
6,545
Location
Elginshire
The problem with MCV (and to a similar extent, Wright) is they only offer Volvo chassis which doesn't cater to people who want Scania or Mercedes. MCV used to offer a Mercedes chassis option but for whatever reason, no longer do.
I dare say if someone came up with a large enough order, they could possibly be persuaded to offer other manufacturers' chassis for the UK market. I've had a look at their main website (www.mcv-eg.com) and it looks as if they build on Mercedes, MAN and VDL as well.
 

mbonwick

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2006
Messages
6,257
Location
Kendal
Agreed, One of the big things that shows how outdated the Optare range is are the fixed dashboards. In an era where literally every other major manufacturer has adjustable dashboards on their products it seems odd that Optare stick to the moulded fixed dashboards of the late 90s.

That's because most of their products originated in the late 90s.
You have the Solo SR, which is a Solo with a new front/rear. The Solo was new in...1999...
There's the Versa and Metrocity which are one and the same save for the fibreglass mouldings. And their heritage is simply as a door-forward Solo...which was new in 1999...
The Metrodecker is just an Olympus with an Optare chassis. The Olympus was a double deck Esteem, which itself was just a full body update of the Myllennium. No prizes for guessing when the Myllennium hit the market...
There was the Tempo which was just an updated Excel 2 which (yep you guessed it!) was new in 1999.

So the reason that Optare products in 2019 have the feel of a late 90s bus on the inside is because they can all trace their heritage back very clearly to that time period.
Compare that to the level of redesign that ADL and Wrights have done to their products in that time. (Sure I read somewhere that the E400MMC is 80-ish% new compared to an E400, so almost an entirely new product).
 

Jordan Adam

Established Member
Joined
12 Sep 2017
Messages
5,514
Location
Aberdeen
That's because most of their products originated in the late 90s.
You have the Solo SR, which is a Solo with a new front/rear. The Solo was new in...1999...
There's the Versa and Metrocity which are one and the same save for the fibreglass mouldings. And their heritage is simply as a door-forward Solo...which was new in 1999...
The Metrodecker is just an Olympus with an Optare chassis. The Olympus was a double deck Esteem, which itself was just a full body update of the Myllennium. No prizes for guessing when the Myllennium hit the market...
There was the Tempo which was just an updated Excel 2 which (yep you guessed it!) was new in 1999.

So the reason that Optare products in 2019 have the feel of a late 90s bus on the inside is because they can all trace their heritage back very clearly to that time period.
Compare that to the level of redesign that ADL and Wrights have done to their products in that time. (Sure I read somewhere that the E400MMC is 80-ish% new compared to an E400, so almost an entirely new product).

Indeed, Wright however have been equally as slack on redesigning in some cases, in particular with the Eclipse 3 which is mostly unchanged from the original "Millennium" design which dates back to 1998.

Although i don't think any of them come close to the original Bova Futura!
 

CM

Member
Joined
28 Dec 2010
Messages
667
That's because most of their products originated in the late 90s.
You have the Solo SR, which is a Solo with a new front/rear. The Solo was new in...1999...
There's the Versa and Metrocity which are one and the same save for the fibreglass mouldings. And their heritage is simply as a door-forward Solo...which was new in 1999...
The Metrodecker is just an Olympus with an Optare chassis. The Olympus was a double deck Esteem, which itself was just a full body update of the Myllennium. No prizes for guessing when the Myllennium hit the market...
There was the Tempo which was just an updated Excel 2 which (yep you guessed it!) was new in 1999.

So the reason that Optare products in 2019 have the feel of a late 90s bus on the inside is because they can all trace their heritage back very clearly to that time period.
Compare that to the level of redesign that ADL and Wrights have done to their products in that time. (Sure I read somewhere that the E400MMC is 80-ish% new compared to an E400, so almost an entirely new product).

There's no such thing as an "Optare Chassis". The Metrodecker is a brand new, fully integral product, just like the rest of the Optare range and has very little to no relation to the Olympus other than a prototype that was built years ago. The Optare range do not have "chassis" as such, they instead are built up as a frame onto which the running gear, body panels, interior etc etc are fitted to, they have no physicall, traditional chassis - https://www.flickr.com/photos/fgw143/7615966878/

Although ADLs are marketed as Integral, they aren't actually integral, they still use the body on chassis method of construction with the chassis being built in Guildford and then shipped to either Falkirk or Scarborough.

Hope this helps!
 

mbonwick

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2006
Messages
6,257
Location
Kendal
You are quite correct @Colin M, a poor choice of words on my part. What I was trying to convey is that the Metrodecker is essentially an updated Olympus modified for monocoque construction, rather than traditional body-on-chassis.
 

LOL The Irony

On Moderation
Joined
29 Jul 2017
Messages
5,335
Location
Chinatown, New York
Although ADLs are marketed as Integral, they aren't actually integral, they still use the body on chassis method of construction with the chassis being built in Guildford and then shipped to either Falkirk or Scarborough.
That's the better way of doing it with a bus because they all try cheaping out when they go with a monocoque.
(Sure I read somewhere that the E400MMC is 80-ish% new compared to an E400, so almost an entirely new product).
I believe it's something in that region.
 

Jordan Adam

Established Member
Joined
12 Sep 2017
Messages
5,514
Location
Aberdeen
That's the better way of doing it with a bus because they all try cheaping out when they go with a monocoque.

Not to forget it also makes it easier for ADL to adapt their body for other chassis. As i'm sure you'll know ADL's logic of thinking is that it's better to get 50% of an order (Another chassis under their body) than it is to get no order.
 

LOL The Irony

On Moderation
Joined
29 Jul 2017
Messages
5,335
Location
Chinatown, New York
Not to forget it also makes it easier for ADL to adapt their body for other chassis. As i'm sure you'll know ADL's logic of thinking is that it's better to get 50% of an order (Another chassis under their body) than it is to get no order.
Something Wright doesn't seem to get as they only offer Volvo chassis apart from their integerals.
 

Jordan Adam

Established Member
Joined
12 Sep 2017
Messages
5,514
Location
Aberdeen
Something Wright doesn't seem to get as they only offer Volvo chassis apart from their integerals.

Disagree, the Streetdeck and Gemini 3 in theory are the same body adapted to a different chassis. The only option missing in the Wright range just now imo is the Cummins engine. However that would require them developing a new chassis (probably with VDL) as i don't believe anyone besides ADL currently build a decker chassis with a Cummins engine suitable for the UK market. The chances of ADL and Wright working together are very slim, even then i doubt anyone would really buy it.
 

F Great Eastern

Established Member
Joined
2 Apr 2009
Messages
3,580
Location
East Anglia
The Metrodecker is just an Olympus with an Optare chassis. The Olympus was a double deck Esteem, which itself was just a full body update of the Myllennium. No prizes for guessing when the Myllennium hit the market.

Neither the Myllennium, Olympus or Esteem were Optare products, they were East Lancs products, the first of which was long out of production by the time Optare brought them out and the later two were produced by both Darwen and Optare who bought East Lancs and Darwen out respectively.

The Olympus was an updated version of the Scania based Omnidekka and all of the other Myllennium double deck bodies. The Omnidekka was literally a Myllennium with a Scania front and back end that had a few tweaks to be adapted for a Scania chassis.

Originally Optare planned to build their own chassis for the Olympus but that never happened and they went down the Rapta road, which eventually ended in the Metrodecker which essentially was a new product, based on their experiences with the Rapta and the Olympus Optare chassis prototypes and a fair few new ideas.

It would have been good if East Lancs survived to tell the truth as they would be picking up the kind of business that MCV are now. When Optare took them over they before too long closed down the old EL factory and laid off a good few of the staff and abandoned any EL products.

The Olympus was generally a flop though. It was supposed to replace the Omnidekka, but ironically the Omnidekka outlasted it and outsold it and this is despite the fact that after the Olympus was released, Darwen and Optare didn't do a single thing to try and sell any more Omnidekkas and only really entertained building them for existing customers, which ultimately cost them orders.

By the way, this is the Optare chassis'd Olympus
https://www.flickr.com/photos/146674753@N06/26211592347/in/photolist-FWegcZ-XQ1gQV-YbToQa
 

Jordan Adam

Established Member
Joined
12 Sep 2017
Messages
5,514
Location
Aberdeen
The Olympus was generally a flop though. It was supposed to replace the Omnidekka, but ironically the Omnidekka outlasted it and outsold it and this is despite the fact that after the Olympus was released, Darwen and Optare didn't do a single thing to try and sell any more Omnidekkas and only really entertained building them for existing customers, which ultimately cost them orders.

In all fairness the Olympus wasn't that bad of a flop. Given the time frame it was in production it pretty much sold on par with the Omnidekka.

The Olympus was on production over 4 financial years and sold 264 units for an average of 66 per year.

The Omnidekka was in production over 9 financial years and sold 578 units for an average of 64 per year.
 
Last edited:

F Great Eastern

Established Member
Joined
2 Apr 2009
Messages
3,580
Location
East Anglia
In all fairness the Olympus wasn't that bad of a flop.

It certainly was a flop in most peoples eyes in the industry, some argue that if East Lancs hadn't have launched the Olympus and the ill fated Esteem and Pannaire, then they might not have gone titsup the way that they did.

The simple fact is that the Olympus came out in 2006 and even 5 years later operators were still pretty much going to Optare asking for the Omnidekka but not that interested in the Olympus. If a new generation of product is so often being looked over by customers who want more of a decade old design built, then the new one cannot be considered to be very successful. The Omnidekka came out over 3 years before the Olympus, yet the last bus was produced after the last Olympus.

Given the time frame it was in production it pretty much sold on par with the Omnidekka.

On par is exceptionally poor when you consider that between 2007-2011 Optare basically didn't try and sell any Omnidekkas whatsoever and pushed the Olympus loudly and proudly, yet they still couldn't shift more of them than the Omnidekka, which says a lot, because the Olympus couldn't win even in a fight with the odds stacked in it's favour, let alone a fair one.

That's before you take into account the number of Omnidekkas they refused to build and the independents who were told that they are not going to get any Omnidekkas so it's the Olympus or nothing, who then went to ADL and never looked back.
 

GusB

Established Member
Associate Staff
Buses & Coaches
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
6,545
Location
Elginshire
Although ADLs are marketed as Integral, they aren't actually integral, they still use the body on chassis method of construction with the chassis being built in Guildford and then shipped to either Falkirk or Scarborough.
I don't think we can really call it "body-on-chassis" these days. Semi-integral is probably a more accurate term. In the old days, a chassis could support itself and be driven without any bodywork whatsoever. They rely on an "underframe" which is then mated to the body to provide the complete structure - i.e. one bit is fairly useless without the other. The likes of Scania provide front and rear modules which can be incorporated into the overall structure - not unlike the Routemaster, which had sub-frames which were integrated into the bus as a whole.
 

Top