Just after a bi-mode order no doubt!
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New trains for East Midlands Franchise
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samuelmorris
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That's a discussion for another thread, but if HS2 is cancelled, investment in other rail projects will be cited as the reason for its cancellation, but this will never happen. The money will go elsewhere, I guarantee it.
Yes it will, but it's huge - half the battery is in the trailer if I recall, because it doesn't all fit in the tractor unit. That's fine for a truck, and I think it's a good idea, you could potentially go bigger still for more lightweight loads (heavy batteries encroach on safe carrying capacity as the trailer can only be so heavy). You're also right that the workload of a train more closely matches a truck than that of a bus, however the point I was making was that the electric buses use a battery that can fit alongside passenger accommodation. Trucks do not need to make such provisions so have far more options about where oversized battery packs can be installed. There is only so much you can fit under the passenger area in a train, even with an 800-style hump. To get long ranges out of battery powered multiple units, above-floor areas like in the Hydroflex or the Flirt will be needed.
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Nym
Established Member
Other than the 45 minute stop they're required to take by law every four hours?
Any review would be aware of the predictions for rail growth (2.5/year meaning ~25% after 9 years, ~52% at opening of Phase 1 in 2026 and 85% at opening of Phase 2 in 2033) and how rail growth had actually been growing (such as between 2008/09 and 2017/18 up ~70% between London and the regions which benefit from HS2 phase 1, North West, Scotland and West Midlands). Which is stark contrast to the early complaints of HS2 which would fall short of the predictions on rail growth.
As well as facts like they investment in enhancements to the existing network (not maintenance, HS2 or new coaches) had been growing year on year since 2009 and has direct circa £25bn (so hardly spend a fraction on the existing network and all the problems will be fixed).
Broadband speeds have grown from an average of 4.5mb/s in 2009 to an average of 55mb/s and satellite internet provides a baseline of 30mb/s for any users. Also any investment in broadband can be fairly small and see big changes, a scheme to provide 100mb/s broadband to 100 schools had done so and still has budget and so is looking for more sites. Once those settlements have fiber connections to their school the speed to the local houses is also likely to improve.
These (and other things) will be looked at by any review and will likely, unless someone has data which shows something which undermines the above arguments, conclude that unless there's a viable alternative which which is shovel ready (or nearly so) then the best course of action would be to continue with HS2.
However this is fairly off topic and if anyone wants to come back on anything covered above there's this thread:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/why-are-people-opposed-to-hs2-and-other-hs2-discussion.177112/
thealm
Member
Could Class 67+Mk4’s be an option for EMR??
samuelmorris
Established Member
I highly doubt a 67 would meet the acceleration criteria if 802s don't.
thealm
Member
Not forever as a temporary measure to remove HST’s as Mk4’s are compliant.
samuelmorris
Established Member
Hmm, that's a fair point, I hadn't thought of that. To be honest, given how many other TOCs are going to need derogations, I'd be surprised if they made EMR go through something as disruptive as that. I can see them just being given a derogation like everybody else.
samuelmorris
Established Member
I almost guarantee it.
NotATrainspott
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No it isn't. The tractor unit is just as independent of the trailer as a normal diesel one would be. The reason 1MWh seems infeasibly large is that no other truck manufacturer has started from scratch for their designs so far. It's quite easy to fit in an absolutely enormous battery if your entire chassis and architecture is built around it. If all you're doing is replacing the space you'd fit with a fuel tank and maybe some of the engine gubbins with a random assortment of battery cells arranged in an awkward shape, it'll never look as impressive.
We already have electric trains so we're a little bit closer to what a battery powered unit would look like. I'd expect them all to be fitted below the solebar in rafts, with all the other equipment moved together to minimise the amount of space it takes up. It'll be less necessary to put them above the solebar because you can make them in fairly arbitrary pack sizes, while engines are an awkward lump shape.
By frequent stopping I mean opportunity charging like what is viable for many bus routes. That is, you'd have some overhead charging canopies located every few stops along the route, meaning you really don't need that much battery storage. I expect the sorts of train services which stop as frequently as that would go over to a South Wales-style light metro/tram-train system using opportunity charging and discontinuous electrification. That would leave heavy rail to do only the longer-distance regional services which could run for long periods of time between charges. For instance, electric services from Paddington to Gloucester would run on battery west of Swindon with maybe a bit of charging while it waits at the terminus since it's in a built up area where power can be easily provided. You wouldn't see big charging stations set up at the little stops like Kemble since the cost of providing the power supply there is too great.
samuelmorris
Established Member
Unless something has changed that was only for the 300 mile range unit. The 500 mile range version I believe was the one with extra battery capacity in the trailer. In any case, I never said 1MWh was unfeasible for truck use, but passenger carrying vehicles are another matter. Bear in mind, railway vehicles in particular can only be so heavy due to axle load requirements. The battery-powered bin lorry featured on Bjorn Nyland's channel recently has 300kWh of batteries taking up 700kg. I don't have figures to hand for the rail version but the static genset version of the MTU 12V1600 is around 5-6 tonnes, so weight-wise there is probably room for maybe 2.5MWh under each vehicle in a train to keep the same weight, plus however much more you could get away with in terms of space.
NotATrainspott
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I can't find anything on the internet about the extra 400kWh being located in the trailer. If that were true, then the effective maximum capacity would be 600kWh, since you can have arbitrarily large battery packs in your trailer (or any other power source, really, if you wanted). None of the prototypes have the power cabling required for a trailer-mounted battery to power the motors and they have actually driven long distances on demonstration runs.
There has been a lot more discussion about how much the battery eats away at the maximum permitted truck weight. For the many loads which aren't limited by overall truck weight, it's not a problem. For those which are, then it's an economic question of whether the reduced running costs outweigh the possible payload capacity. Vehicles designed from scratch to be electric can use the battery mass in useful ways like structural integrity, so it isn't necessarily all dead weight in any case.
In any case, on the railway I don't think you'll see vehicles relying entirely on the battery for long distance running. The UK isn't actually very big. Even long-ish stretches of unelectrified routes aren't that long in the grand scheme of things. In a world where all self-powered running is done through batteries, there will be a fairly convincing business case to wire up easy and important sections to allow charging and a reduction in battery size.
43096
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Not going to happen. A single 67 will never meet the running time requirements.
londonmidland
Established Member
It’s been discussed before and there was quite a detailed explanation quite a while back on Twitter of how MK4’s aren’t cleared and wouldn’t be suitable for the MML without major alterations to the current infrastructure.
dubscottie
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But Mk4's have run on the MML before. They have been to the old St Pancras, and there were many stock/test runs or moves to/from the RTC in Derby. I would love to know what major infrastructure alterations have taken place since that now prohibits their use.
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Hairy Bear
Member
Guaging runs south of Bedford showed ,if I can remember from the article, 22 platform edges require altering , and 12 platforms required complete rebuild. This didn't mention any platforms north of Bedford.
Then you need to alter the dvt and 67's to make them compatable, train up 180 Drivers and Train Managers,fitting staff, all in time for the End of year deadline. Then you could run the service but you'll also need to alter the timetable to take into account the slower acceleration and 110mph limit.
Not a bad idea ....any others ?.
Then you need to alter the dvt and 67's to make them compatable, train up 180 Drivers and Train Managers,fitting staff, all in time for the End of year deadline. Then you could run the service but you'll also need to alter the timetable to take into account the slower acceleration and 110mph limit.
Not a bad idea ....any others ?.
Abellio should get the 180s at the end of the year.
They've given themselves until the summer of 2020 to get the [180] fleet in good working order (I guess repainted, overhauled).
This means the ex-GC HSTs can be replaced.
By December 2020, EMR hopes to have the 360s in service, which will release further 222s to slowly replace the longer HST sets.
They've given themselves until the summer of 2020 to get the [180] fleet in good working order (I guess repainted, overhauled).
This means the ex-GC HSTs can be replaced.
By December 2020, EMR hopes to have the 360s in service, which will release further 222s to slowly replace the longer HST sets.
100andthirty
Member
I've nevertheless on a class 180, but, over the years have seen many comments about TOCs taking on the class 180 and getting them into good working order. Each time it has ended with unreliable services. That said, EMT has some good people and I'd say if anyone can make these reliable, they can.
thealm
Member
That could be famous last words.
samuelmorris
Established Member
Dec2020 sounds a bit tight for the 360s on the assumption they won't be leaving GA on time. Otherwise it's a perfectly reasonable deadline.
As for the 180s, I'll believe it when I see it. I suspect I won't!
InTheEastMids
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The people at Abellio that think they can make the 180s reliable are probably part of the 12% of men that think they could take a point off Serena Williams in a game of tennis..
(Link to story: https://inews.co.uk/sport/tennis/serena-williams-men-point-win-yougov-poll-wimbledon-2019/ )
The people at Abellio that think they can make the 180s reliable are probably part of the 12% of men that think they could take a point off Serena Williams in a game of tennis..
(Link to story: https://inews.co.uk/sport/tennis/serena-williams-men-point-win-yougov-poll-wimbledon-2019/ )
I can see why people could think that they could earn a point during a match, although there could be some who could do it (although I would think that the likes of Andy Murray probably doesn't answer YouGov surveys). As the article says probably a fair few probably wouldn't.
Just spotted my first EMR liveried vehicle, a double decker bus! Seen brifly out of the window heading round the Park Square roundabliut in Sheffield. Mainly white (with a dirty roof!), a purple train on the side and various writing. Can't seem to find a pic on the web.
It's the staff information mobile road show.
cnjb8
Established Member
Looking on Google re this bus - how many advertising liveries has it carried!
londonmidland
Established Member
222104 is at Derby Etches Park with driving vehicle no. 60274 detached from the rest of the train, with its East Midlands Trains logo removed. Potentially the first 222 to receive the new East Midlands Railway livery, ready for the launch date..?
I think it's having a new cab shell fitted. A 222 will receive the livery for launch but won't be pulled until the 17th.
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