Grand Union Trains Plans to run from London to Cardiff - Now rejected by ORR

John Newbury · 13 Jul 2019

Looks like the original open access request has been withdrawn and a new application extended to Llanelli has been made in its place.

https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pd...ibrium-test-grand-union-trains-2019-07-10.pdf

Initially a service every 2 hours between Cardiff Central –Newport– Severn Tunnel Junction – Bristol Parkway - London Paddington.

Service then increased to hourly and extended from Cardiff to Bridgend–Port Talbot Parkway –Neath– Swansea– Gowerto nand Llanelli.

Further extension to Carmarthen under consideration pending further diagram work.

RailUK Forums

Ianno87 · 13 Jul 2019

John Newbury said:
Looks like the original open access request has been withdrawn and a new application extended to Llanelli has been made in its place.

https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pd...ibrium-test-grand-union-trains-2019-07-10.pdf

Proposes to use 802s for the extension....

Would love to know if Llanelli-London is a sufficiently large market to be Not Primarily Abstractivw.

ATW158Xpress · 13 Jul 2019

Ianno87 said:
Proposes to use 802s for the extension....

Would love to know if Llanelli-London is a sufficiently large market to be Not Primarily Abstractivw.

Where’s the 802 order coming from if planing for a May 2021 introduction?

Darandio · 13 Jul 2019

I'm pretty certain that Yeowart simply throws darts at a map for locations, then spins a wheel that has a load of rolling stock written on it.

swt_passenger · 13 Jul 2019

ATW158Xpress said:
Where’s the 802 order coming from if planing for a May 2021 introduction?

That date is surely only just for the Cardiff service? Note that timings for the “extended service” which would use 802s are yet to be determined.

Cambrian359 · 13 Jul 2019

Straight in for the kill with 9 car formations! giving all customers a seat for years to come will prove a big hit with passengers no doubt!

800002 · 13 Jul 2019

Who's going to pay for the route clearance / gauging work?
Last time I checked it's only the Mark 3's (without mods) that are cleared thatway.
Let alone the cl.91 and DVT's...

Thay may be 'compatable' but it'll cost someone to sort it.

Glenn1969 · 13 Jul 2019

Also possible extension west of Llanelli to Carmarthen "pending further diagram work" . Is an hourly service to London from West Wales really a viable prospect?

ainsworth74 · 13 Jul 2019

Glenn1969 said:
Is an hourly service to London from West Wales really a viable prospect?

If it'll get them through the not primarily abstractive test then...

800002 · 13 Jul 2019

Glenn1969 said:
Is an hourly service to London from West Wales really a viable prospect?

ainsworth74 said:
If it'll get them through the not primarily abstractive test then...

But it's only an hourly service to west Wales, afteran unspecified period. Sounds interesting, at the least.

The Planner · 13 Jul 2019

800002 said:
Who's going to pay for the route clearance / gauging work?
Last time I checked it's only the Mark 3's (without mods) that are cleared thatway.
Let alone the cl.91 and DVT's...

Thay may be 'compatable' but it'll cost someone to sort it.

It will cost them to sort it, simple as.

Cardiff123 · 13 Jul 2019

So has the proposed rolling stock changed now from 91s + Mk 4s to 802s?

800002 · 13 Jul 2019

Cardiff123 said:
So has the proposed rolling stock changed now from 91s + Mk 4s to 802s?

From the application:

Please set out indicative information about the intended rolling stock.
Initial service: Class 91 locomotives, up to 9 coaches and 1 DVT in each train set Extended service: Class 802 in 9 car formation

Cardiff123 · 13 Jul 2019

We're forgetting that Grand Union's plans for 91s + Mk 4s are very much dependent on whether NR can find a permanent solution for getting electricity through the Severn Tunnel

cactustwirly · 14 Jul 2019

Cardiff123 said:
We're forgetting that Grand Union's plans for 91s + Mk 4s are very much dependent on whether NR can find a permanent solution for getting electricity through the Severn Tunnel

Isn't the Severn Tunnel already wired?

cactustwirly · 14 Jul 2019

800002 said:
Who's going to pay for the route clearance / gauging work?
Last time I checked it's only the Mark 3's (without mods) that are cleared thatway.
Let alone the cl.91 and DVT's...

Thay may be 'compatable' but it'll cost someone to sort it.

More likely to be a paper exercise, as the GWML was built for a more generous loading gauge than other lines. Although that is dependent on the 91s being compatible with the electrical supply

800002 · 14 Jul 2019

cactustwirly said:
More likely to be a paper exercise, as the GWML was built for a more generous loading gauge than other lines. Although that is dependent on the 91s being compatible with the electrical supply

When is Swansea - Carmathen getting wired?

cactustwirly · 14 Jul 2019

800002 said:
I was thinking, as planned intro in May 2021, that eighteen months would be long enough to make the mods required. Given that 2020 is the red line for the overhauls to be completed for current stock - wouldn't that open up sufficient space for the additional stock?

When is Swansea - Carmathen getting wired?

It ain't, that's why they're using 802s for that bit, shouldn't be an issue as the very similar 800s are cleared all the way to Pembroke

800002 · 14 Jul 2019

cactustwirly said:
It ain't, that's why they're using 802s for that bit

Silly me - misread / interpretated what I was looking at. Long day! Thought the plan was to kick off with llanelli.

YorkshireBear · 14 Jul 2019

cactustwirly said:
Isn't the Severn Tunnel already wired?

Yes but as reported this month it is already falling to bits with components failing long before their expected design life.

Tomos y Tanc · 14 Jul 2019

There may be some poltical support for this given that the UK and Welsh Governments are in talks with Network Rail about developing a Parkway station on the Swansea district line. It would make sense for the open access operator to offer services via the new station with GWR serving the current city centre station.

krus_aragon · 14 Jul 2019

Tomos y Tanc said:
There may be some poltical support for this given that the UK and Welsh Governments are in talks with Network Rail about developing a Parkway station on the Swansea district line. It would make sense for the open access operator to offer services via the new station with GWR serving the current city centre station.

The current application mentions serving Neath and Swansea when the service is extended, though. They'd have to sacrifice the passenger traffic from those stations in order to go via the District Line instead.

nlogax · 14 Jul 2019

Cardiff123 said:
We're forgetting that Grand Union's plans for 91s + Mk 4s are very much dependent on whether NR can find a permanent solution for getting electricity through the Severn Tunnel

Nope, we're not. The tunnel has been wired (well, conductor-railed) for some time now.

yorkie · 14 Jul 2019

If anyone wishes to discuss whether or not Grand Central could use HSTs (as opposed to their current proposals) please use this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...for-their-proposed-service-to-cardiff.186098/

If anyone wishes to discuss anything else that is not proposed, please feel free to create a new thread (if there isn't one already), thanks

Cardiff123 · 14 Jul 2019

nlogax said:
Nope, we're not. The tunnel has been wired (well, conductor-railed) for some time now.

And as has been already stated, that's not working due to the harsh, damp, salty conditions in the tunnel.

BBC News - Trains to London: Severn Tunnel electrification problems
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-48621944

Earth straps - a safety feature on the overhead connectors holding up the power line - were corroding in the salt water environment within months when they are supposed to have a 25-year lifespan, meaning the line through the tunnel could not be electrified safely.

It means the electrification system within the brickwork tunnel - the longest underwater tunnel in the world for more than 100 years after it opened in 1886 - struggles to maintain voltage and regularly trips.

Network Rail contracted experts from Swiss company Furrer and Frey, specialists in developing power cables inside tunnels, to design a solution but none have so far worked in the salty climate.

cactustwirly · 14 Jul 2019

Cardiff123 said:
And as has been already stated, that's not working due to the harsh, damp, salty conditions in the tunnel.

BBC News - Trains to London: Severn Tunnel electrification problems
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-48621944

What about making them from Titanium instead of steel?

Cardiff123 · 14 Jul 2019

cactustwirly said:
What about making them from Titanium instead of steel?

Depends if NR's budget will stretch that far I guess. I suspect it won't

nlogax · 14 Jul 2019

Cardiff123 said:
And as has been already stated, that's not working due to the harsh, damp, salty conditions in the tunnel.

GWR need it fixed - and I am sure it'll happen - a lot sooner than December 2020. Surely it'd be the worst of worst cases if it's still an issue then?

II · 15 Jul 2019

No great urgency to get it fixed is there? IETs will just run on diesel mode throughout the tunnel area. Though plans to use 387s as Cardiff event crowd busters would be affected that is hardly a crucial hurdle.

Envoy · 15 Jul 2019

II said:
No great urgency to get it fixed is there? IETs will just run on diesel mode throughout the tunnel area. Though plans to use 387s as Cardiff event crowd busters would be affected that is hardly a crucial hurdle.

The seats in the 387’s are even worse than those in the IET’s. Can’t see people wanting to be in them for long.

Grand Union Trains Plans to run from London to Cardiff - Now rejected by ORR

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