Class 800 upgrades to address performance and reliability issues

43096 · 12 Jul 2019

irish_rail said:
All the more reason to short form those services and not those to the South West.
Although as Clarence yard points out the poor contract leaves GWRs hands a little tied. But I can't see this ever changing as long as we are relying on 5 car sets to make 10 car sets etc it's a recipe for poor performance.

That might apply for the 800s, but not for the 802s. That’s a GWR contract.

Of course, this blame game just serves to distract from the most important point, that the service to the customer is @#%*. And that very much is GWR’s problem.

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hexagon789 · 12 Jul 2019

ohgoditsjames said:
Yes they did/do but not until the major issues and teething problems are resolved with the new stock replacing them. It’s asinine to completely withdrawn existing stock with blatantly inadequate new stock.
I dread the day when the HST’s are withdrawn from the MML.

I'm not so convinced it's inadequate as such, teething issues yes, but there were teething issues with the HSTs well into the 1980s.

II · 12 Jul 2019

The 16:03 PNZ was a 9-car in the end, swapped with the set for the 15:50 MIM - a very sensible move on a Friday

Just the one set on a diesel only restriction today.

Clarence Yard · 12 Jul 2019

43096 said:
That might apply for the 800s, but not for the 802s. That’s a GWR contract.

Of course, this blame game just serves to distract from the most important point, that the service to the customer is @#%*. And that very much is GWR’s problem.

Indeed it is GWR’s problem.

The 802 contract is a variant of the 800 contract, much simplified and more flexible, but it works on the same train (diagram) supply principle because that was all that was on offer.

This removes the train operator from direct control of deployment as well as free enjoyment of the fleet in service. The slightly rigid way that Hitachi deals with this diagram aspect, together with their maintenance planning works well when everything is good but comes under strain when it doesn’t.

Frankly, when you have too many units stopped and just under a fifth today are running around with a GU out, it isn’t brilliant. There were spare 5 car units available today but sitting at the wrong depot. The number of displaced units (wrong type at wrong place) was again too high and that responsibility sits with both parties.

jimm · 13 Jul 2019

irish_rail said:
It seems the Cotswold and the South West seem to be bearing the brunt with the full length trains reserved for the shortest routes to Wales and bristol, why am I not surprised.........

irish_rail said:
All the more reason to short form those services and not those to the South West.

Touched as I am by your frankly laughable concern for the Cotswold Line, after all the things you have said about what rolling stock it needs over so many months now - as a mere short commuter route itself - the idea that GWR can just short-form Bristol and South Wales services willy-nilly is ridiculous, given how busy those trains are.

There is a half-hourly frequency for a reason - they are far busier routes than London to the South West - and especially west of Plymouth. There is also a reason the main line service frequency through Cornwall is going half-hourly too.

Since when have 120 miles to Bristol and 150 miles from London to Cardiff, never mind 180 miles to Swansea, been short distances?

Maybe we should apply your short route, short train concept to London commuter services as well... that should work out nicely.

cactustwirly · 13 Jul 2019

jimm said:
Touched as I am by your frankly laughable concern for the Cotswold Line, after all the things you have said about what rolling stock it needs over so many months now - as a mere short commuter route itself - the idea that GWR can just short-form Bristol and South Wales services willy-nilly is ridiculous, given how busy those trains are. There is a half-hourly frequency for a reason. Same as there is a reason the main line service frequency through Cornwall is going half-hourly too.

Since when have 120 miles to Bristol and 150 miles from London to Cardiff, never mind 180 miles to Swansea, been short distances?

Maybe we should apply your short route, short train concept to London commuter services as well... that should work out nicely.

To be fair the hourly Cardiff services could have been shortformed, as these are relatively quiet trains. However I do agree that the Bristol and Swansea services should have been kept at full length as these are busy throughout the day

PHILIPE · 13 Jul 2019

cactustwirly said:
To be fair the hourly Cardiff stoppers could have been shortformed, as these are relatively quiet trains. However I do agree that the Bristol and Swansea services should have been kept at full length as these are busy throughout the day

Try short forming Bristol to Cardiff stoppers during the peaks and it would soon hit the fan.

cactustwirly · 13 Jul 2019

PHILIPE said:
Try short forming Bristol to Cardiff stoppers during the peaks and it would soon hit the fan.

I was talking about the xx15 Paddington to Cardiff/xx56 Cardiff to Paddington services

PHILIPE · 13 Jul 2019

cactustwirly said:
I was talking about the xx15 Paddington to Cardiff/xx56 Cardiff to Paddington services

Sorry, I thought you meant the Tauntons and the Portsmouths

irish_rail · 13 Jul 2019

jimm said:
Touched as I am by your frankly laughable concern for the Cotswold Line, after all the things you have said about what rolling stock it needs over so many months now - as a mere short commuter route itself - the idea that GWR can just short-form Bristol and South Wales services willy-nilly is ridiculous, given how busy those trains are.

There is a half-hourly frequency for a reason - they are far busier routes than London to the South West - and especially west of Plymouth. There is also a reason the main line service frequency through Cornwall is going half-hourly too.

Since when have 120 miles to Bristol and 150 miles from London to Cardiff, never mind 180 miles to Swansea, been short distances?

Maybe we should apply your short route, short train concept to London commuter services as well... that should work out nicely.

What planet are you on??? It's July, I can assure you the London to plynouth route is packed this time of year

Goldfish62 · 13 Jul 2019

irish_rail said:
What planet are you on??? It's July, I can assure you the London to plynouth route is packed this time of year

Anyone who thinks that five coaches on all London services through Cornwall is sufficient is living in fantasy land. On Friday the 0900 from Penzance was 5 vice 9. About 80% of the 9 car train was reserved and unsurprisingly on the five car formation there was standing room only at least from Truro if not before. I dare say some of these passengers were standing for five hours to Paddington. Departures either side of this service from Penzance were 0837 and 0925.

Parallel · 13 Jul 2019

Surprisingly at least one of the services to Penzance today was formed of 10 coaches, the train manager was giving a long list of short platforms for stations West of Plymouth. Probably wise capacity-wise when possible as the extra Cornwall services haven’t started yet.

Goldfish62 · 13 Jul 2019

Parallel said:
Surprisingly at least one of the services to Penzance today was formed of 10 coaches, the train manager was giving a long list of short platforms for stations West of Plymouth. Probably wise capacity-wise when possible as the extra Cornwall services haven’t started yet.

That's quite normal on a number of services.

Clarence Yard · 13 Jul 2019

It’s only some of the Long Rock starters and finishers that should be normally load 5 in Cornwall at the moment. Everything else should be load 9 or 10 and absolutely everything east of Plymouth should normally be load 9 or 10.

Geoff DC · 13 Jul 2019

Need to sort 9/10 car stabling in Ponsandane ASAP or Flybe will need extra planes to London

Railperf · 14 Jul 2019

Clarence Yard said:
Indeed it is GWR’s problem.

The 802 contract is a variant of the 800 contract, much simplified and more flexible, but it works on the same train (diagram) supply principle because that was all that was on offer.

This removes the train operator from direct control of deployment as well as free enjoyment of the fleet in service. The slightly rigid way that Hitachi deals with this diagram aspect, together with their maintenance planning works well when everything is good but comes under strain when it doesn’t.

Frankly, when you have too many units stopped and just under a fifth today are running around with a GU out, it isn’t brilliant. There were spare 5 car units available today but sitting at the wrong depot. The number of displaced units (wrong type at wrong place) was again too high and that responsibility sits with both parties.

If GWR did have control over deployment, would availability have been better?

Thunderer · 14 Jul 2019

Parallel said:
Surprisingly at least one of the services to Penzance today was formed of 10 coaches, the train manager was giving a long list of short platforms for stations West of Plymouth. Probably wise capacity-wise when possible as the extra Cornwall services haven’t started yet.

1A83 10am Penzance-Paddington was just 5 car 802001 yesterday, observed at Dawlish. It looked packed as it passed through. Its return working 1C87 was still just 802001 observed at Taunton, again packed.

Thunderer · 14 Jul 2019

coppercapped said:
A point of order!

The Department for Transport issued the Invitation to Tender for the IEP trains in November 2007 when Ruth Kelly (Labour) was Secretary of State for Transport. In the event the Department closed the contract to supply trains for the Great Western and East Coast mainlines some four and a half years later in July 2012. By this time the Government had changed and Patrick McLoughlin (Conservative) was the SoS.

Not much to do with Mr Grayling...

...or the colour of the Government.

Same horse, different jockey, its still the Government.

Herculesboo · 14 Jul 2019

I came back on the 15.03 Paddington plymouth yesterday, it had 5 cars and couldn't take reading passengers, the staff were very good. As an interested train user i havnt read about overheating issues in the local press, is it being resolved?

Parallel · 14 Jul 2019

Herculesboo said:
I came back on the 15.03 Paddington plymouth yesterday, it had 5 cars and couldn't take reading passengers, the staff were very good. As an interested train user i havnt read about overheating issues in the local press, is it being resolved?

Just out of interest, what do staff do? Tell people to wait for the next service or tell them to travel via Bristol?

Herculesboo · 14 Jul 2019

Parallel said:
Just out of interest, what do staff do? Tell people to wait for the next service or tell them to travel via Bristol?

They made sure reservations were used if free, and that all available seats were used. Many passengers defended their luggage seat almost to the last.

Geoff DC · 14 Jul 2019

How about swapping the HST GTI's (and add a slam door buffet) for 800's on the West Country routes & use the 800s on regional Cornwall routes? after all they were designed as commuter stock not Inter City as we have known it

samuelmorris · 14 Jul 2019

Geoff DC said:
How about swapping the HST GTI's (and add a slam door buffet) for 800's on the West Country routes & use the 800s on regional Cornwall routes? after all they were designed as commuter stock not Inter City as we have known it

If 5-car trains aren't long enough, how would 4-car be better?

Geoff DC · 14 Jul 2019

I said add a buffet to make it 5 cars - even better make it 8 cars that would be very popular :wub:

samuelmorris · 14 Jul 2019

Geoff DC said:
I said add a buffet to make it 5 cars - even better make it 8 cars that would be very popular

A buffet car isn't going to have the capacity of a regular coach though, nor would 23m HST vehicles have the capacity of 26m IET vehicles. To be of much benefit in capacity you'd basically have to run almost the entire HST rake, in which case there'd have been no point withdrawing the HSTs in the first place.

cactustwirly · 14 Jul 2019

samuelmorris said:
A buffet car isn't going to have the capacity of a regular coach though, nor would 23m HST vehicles have the capacity of 26m IET vehicles. To be of much benefit in capacity you'd basically have to run almost the entire HST rake, in which case there'd have been no point withdrawing the HSTs in the first place.

It would also be a lot more expensive as the HSTs, are effectively life expired

irish_rail · 14 Jul 2019

Or how about extend some of the 5 car 802s to 9 car versions and eliminate the problem.

43096 · 14 Jul 2019

irish_rail said:
Or how about extend some of the 5 car 802s to 9 car versions and eliminate the problem.

Not again.........

This has been done to death on here in recent weeks.

Railperf · 15 Jul 2019

Yes this is a thread dedicated to the discussion of performance and reliability of the current Class 800/801/802 fleet. Please feel free to start a new thread if you want to talk about buffet cars, speculative ideas on lengthening 5 car to 9 cars, seats etc.

Thunderer · 15 Jul 2019

II said:
The 16:03 PNZ was a 9-car in the end, swapped with the set for the 15:50 MIM - a very sensible move on a Friday

Just the one set on a diesel only restriction today.

Out of interest, What are Agility and GWR doing to improve units not being limited to Diesel only? With the new proposed faster and higher frequency timetable looming in December, they really need to get on top of this issue, to ensure the maximum number of units can run on the 25Kv where possible.

Class 800 upgrades to address performance and reliability issues

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