Advice please - notice of prosecution

island · 12 Jul 2019

Adam Williams said:
Folks more experienced with these matters than me: Is there value in submitting a formal subject access request ASAP to try and protect CCTV footage in cases like these?

None whatsoever.

CCTV does not record audio so would not prove anything that could aid the OP. Even if it was working, pointed in the right direction, recording sufficient resolution, etc., it would at most show that the passengers concerned had had a conversation with the relevant staff members. They could have been asking the guard about a connection, return train times, or a million and one other things.

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Whopper · 12 Jul 2019

island said:
None whatsoever.

CCTV does not record audio so would not prove anything that could aid the OP. Even if it was working, pointed in the right direction, recording sufficient resolution, etc., it would at most show that the passengers concerned had had a conversation with the relevant staff members. They could have been asking the guard about a connection, return train times, or a million and one other things.

The body worn video used by RPIs records both audio and video

Darandio · 12 Jul 2019

Whopper said:
The body worn video used by RPIs records both audio and video

When activated.

Whopper · 12 Jul 2019

Darandio said:
When activated.

But in the context of the above comment, I am just informing that IF recording then both audio and video would be captured and therefore be of more use than just video

clagmonster · 12 Jul 2019

island said:
None whatsoever.

CCTV does not record audio so would not prove anything that could aid the OP. Even if it was working, pointed in the right direction, recording sufficient resolution, etc., it would at most show that the passengers concerned had had a conversation with the relevant staff members. They could have been asking the guard about a connection, return train times, or a million and one other things.

The CCTV on the train would prove where the passengers boarded and hence the lack of ticket issuing facilities at the origin station.

najaB · 12 Jul 2019

clagmonster said:
The CCTV on the train would prove where the passengers boarded and hence the lack of ticket issuing facilities at the origin station.

I don't believe that the TOC is disputing that part of the story.

RPI · 12 Jul 2019

With regards to the bodywork CCTV, it would be recording all interactions as the norm, generally as soon as a train arrives and people start heading towards the inspection the bodywork CCTV would be activated

steve12 · 13 Jul 2019

The fault here is that the first guard should have sold tickets at the time and not said that the guard joining the train at Exeter would sell tickets. Clearly the guard who took over at Exeter was not doing his/her job properly by not bothering to sell tickets. I have been on this route and it depends who the guard is as to whether tickets are sold at times. GWR should ensure that ALL guards sell tickets and not just some.

najaB · 13 Jul 2019

steve12 said:
The fault here is that the first guard should have sold tickets at the time and not said that the guard joining the train at Exeter would sell tickets.

Depending on how far the train was from Exeter that may not have been possible without incurring a delay to the service. Remember that selling tickets is the guard's secondary role.

30907 · 13 Jul 2019

najaB said:
Depending on how far the train was from Exeter that may not have been possible without incurring a delay to the service. Remember that selling tickets is the guard's secondary role.

Well, the OP says it was at Crediton, so 10 minutes away (and with one other customer taking priority).

najaB · 14 Jul 2019

30907 said:
Well, the OP says it was at Crediton, so 10 minutes away (and with one other customer taking priority).

At most 10 minutes. It's not clear from the post how long after departure the conversation finished since there was discussion of the appropriate ticket.

Plus, if the guard was leaving the train at the next stop he may well have had other things that needed to be put away, tidied up, etc.

daodao · 14 Jul 2019

RPI said:
The elephant in the room is were you stopped after having left the station? The West guys regularly block Exmouth station but they stand out the front of the station, in order to reach where they are you have to walk past the Ticket office window and two Ticket Vending machines, guards not doing tickets is becoming far too common too unfortunately

This seems the most likely explanation, from someone with specific knowledge of Exmouth station. If so, GWR revenue staff have acted entirely correctly and unfortunately the OP's relatives have inadvertently committed a serious offence, for which they can justifiably be prosecuted and if the case reaches court, are likely to be found guilty. Ignorance (of Exmouth station's layout) is not a defence, but could possibly be used in mitigation. What the guards between Crediton and Exeter, and between Exeter and Exmouth, did or did not do, is not relevant to the case, nor is the inability to buy a ticket at Crediton station itself.

CentralTrainer · 14 Jul 2019

daodao said:
This seems the most likely explanation, from someone with specific knowledge of Exmouth station. If so, GWR revenue staff have acted entirely correctly and unfortunately the OP's relatives have inadvertently committed a serious offence, for which they can justifiably be prosecuted and if the case reaches court, are likely to be found guilty. Ignorance (of Exmouth station's layout) is not a defence, but could possibly be used in mitigation. What the guards between Crediton and Exeter, and between Exeter and Exmouth, did or did not do, is not relevant to the case, nor is the inability to buy a ticket at Crediton station itself.

Never read a post that’s so grossly and demonstrably incorrect and inaccurate in all my time here

najaB · 14 Jul 2019

CentralTrainer said:
Never read a post that’s so grossly and demonstrably incorrect and inaccurate in all my time here

What, specifically, is inaccurate?

Saperstein · 14 Jul 2019

daodao said:
GWR revenue staff have acted entirely correctly

How so?

the OP's relatives have inadvertently committed a serious offence,

Really? I hadn't realised that unpaid fairs were that serious in the grand scheme of things...

Full judge and jury job, triable either way, or is this one indictment only?

What the guards between Crediton and Exeter, and between Exeter and Exmouth, did or did not do, is not relevant to the case, nor is the inability to buy a ticket at Crediton station itself.

You could hardly be more wrong...

Saperstein.

najaB · 14 Jul 2019

Saperstein said:
You could hardly be more wrong.

That rather depends on what, if any, offence they are charged with, no?

Saperstein · 15 Jul 2019

najaB said:
That rather depends on what, if any, offence they are charged with, no?

Not really. @daodao was saying that the actions of the guard at Crediton and the inability to buy tickets at same is not relevant. I’m arguing that it is very much relevant to this case.

Saperstein.

najaB · 15 Jul 2019

Saperstein said:
I’m arguing that it is very much relevant to this case.

Even if the charge is based solely on the fact that they exited Exmouth station without using the ticket facilities?

Saperstein · 15 Jul 2019

najaB said:
Even if the charge is based solely on the fact that they exited Exmouth station without using the ticket facilities?

Yes, because if the defence can show that there was no intention to steal/defraud the railway (because the passengers already attempted to buy tickets from the guard st Crediton).

The strength of any prosecution case to the contrary suddenly becomes very weak.

Saperstein.

najaB · 15 Jul 2019

Saperstein said:
Yes, because if the defence can show that there was no intention to steal/defraud the railway (because the passengers already attempted to buy tickets from the guard st Crediton).

That is good grounds for GWR to not bring a prosecution.

However if they were to bring one, the magistrate would have to consider that intent can, and does, change. I can leave the house with every intent not to go to the pub, that doesn't mean that I won't end up there. In the railway context, how many times have we heard from posters who, in the heat of the moment, decided to ask for a short fare?

I'm not saying this is the case here, but it is entirely possible for someone to travel, money in hand all the way to their destination station, then decide to head for the open exit rather than head to the ticket office. They would be just as guilty as someone who left home with the intention to try and avoid payment.

If this were to head to court, and the RPIs were located outside the station as reported to be the usual position, then all the magistrate would be trying to determine is if the reason for heading for the exit was in an attempt to pay or not to pay.

Western Sunset · 15 Jul 2019

But a key fact (if we believe the OP and I have no evidence not to) is that they asked for tickets from the guard before the train left Crediton, yet he refused to sell them any. Journey time is around 10 min; enough to sell them (and others) tickets.
Thus they asked at the earliest possible opportunity they could but were turned away.

I don't think GWR have a leg to stand on if they went to court.

furlong · 15 Jul 2019

Western Sunset said:
I don't think GWR have a leg to stand on if they went to court.

Drifting off topic again, but please try to understand better how 'intent' that may be 'momentary' works. If you intend to pay at one moment, then at a later moment intend not to pay, and then at a later moment still intend again to pay, then you might be convicted if there is sufficient evidence of that moment in the middle at which you intended not to pay. Was there sufficient evidence to allege that a moment like that in the middle occurred at some point in time at Exmouth?

Western Sunset · 15 Jul 2019

Fair point.

Just had another thought; would the guard (who didn't want to sell the tickets to Exmouth) know about the planned "sting" there with revenue inspectors?

najaB · 15 Jul 2019

Western Sunset said:
Journey time is around 10 min; enough to sell them (and others) tickets.

As noted above, not if other duties took priority. The 1137 only has one minute at each Exeter station so it's likely that the guard had to tidy up the cab, etc. and only sold the ticket for the man going to Exeter since it was a simple transaction that could be continued on the platform if anything went wrong (eg. card machine didn't get a signal).

Saperstein · 16 Jul 2019

najaB said:
In the railway context, how many times have we heard from posters who, in the heat of the moment, decided to ask for a short fare?

I'm not saying this is the case here, but it is entirely possible for someone to travel, money in hand all the way to their destination station, then decide to head for the open exit rather than head to the ticket office. They would be just as guilty as someone who left home with the intention to try and avoid payment.

If this were to head to court, and the RPIs were located outside the station as reported to be the usual position, then all the magistrate would be trying to determine is if the reason for heading for the exit was in an attempt to pay or not to pay.

OK, fair enough, but at the end of the day if it did get as far as a courtroom, surely the onus would be on the prosecution to prove, beyond all reasonable doubt, that the defendant deliberately defrauded the railway.

Saperstein.

najaB · 16 Jul 2019

Saperstein said:
OK, fair enough, but at the end of the day if it did get as far as a courtroom, surely the onus would be on the prosecution to prove, beyond all reasonable doubt, that the defendant deliberately defrauded the railway.

Saperstein.

If they were up on fraud charges, yes. However the RoRA doesn't speak to intent to defraud, just demonstrated intent to avoid paying the fare due.

Saperstein · 16 Jul 2019

najaB said:
If they were up on fraud charges, yes. However the RoRA doesn't speak to intent to defraud, just demonstrated intent to avoid paying the fare due.

The magistrate would still have a hard time convicting on this one though me thinks.

Saperstein.

221129 · 16 Jul 2019

Saperstein said:
The magistrate would still have a hard time convicting on this one though me thinks.

Saperstein.

If they walked past the open ticket office at Exmouth and out the exit then it would be one of the easier cases to prove. That is what GWRs case will need to be based on.

najaB · 16 Jul 2019

221129 said:
If they walked past the open ticket office at Exmouth and out the exit then it would be one of the easier cases to prove. That is what GWRs case will need to be based on.

The case would hinge on the visibility of the RPIs vs the ticket office.

If they were the most clearly visible staff from the platform then a reasonable person might go to them to ask for a ticket. If they weren't visible but the ticket office was, then a reasonable person looking to pay their fare would head for the office rather than the exit.

Deafdoggie · 16 Jul 2019

As you come off Exmouth platform, the ticket office is to the right, but the RPI's and the queue would be straight ahead. So I think it would be perfectly reasonable if you were looking to buy a ticket to head to the staff. I think you could easily not see the ticket office, as you had seen the staff first, and just headed there. I also do not think a fare dodger would head straight to the RPI's I think they would have gone to the ticket office and purchased a ticket from Exton if they were trying to avoid the fare.

Advice please - notice of prosecution

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