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Proposal for TPE to serve Saltburn (Now only Redcar Central)

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Esker-pades

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Why stop at Saltburn. Why not get TPE to serve the Boulby freight line and open new stations at Skinningrove and Loftus? It's no less realistic....
Adding additional services to existing stations v opening new stations. Same level of realism....... (sarcasm note).
As discussed, this is mainly to do with turnback facilities at Middlesbrough, the possible additional services are for operational convenience rather than providing new trains at Saltburn/Redcar.
 
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TBY-Paul

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My understanding is that in one of the Tees Valley Mayor's press releases, he mentioned using some of the funding at his disposal to fund the service, he didn't go into details of what this would be, but there was clear mention of him using the funding.
 

geoffk

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Why stop at Saltburn. Why not get TPE to serve the Boulby freight line and open new stations at Skinningrove and Loftus? It's no less realistic....
Why have 80 minutes turnround at Middlesbrough? Isn't 20 enough? Scarborough is only 11 at present, clearly not enough.
 

Esker-pades

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It looks like the plans have been shortened to Redcar only - see here
Text from the article quoted here as per the forum rules.
BBC said:
Direct Manchester Saltburn train plan shelved

Plans for a direct train to run from Manchester to Saltburn will not go ahead because of timetable problems, transport chiefs have revealed.

Last year Transport for the North (TfN) said the TransPennine Express route would go direct to East Cleveland.

But now officers at the Tees Valley Combined Authority (TVCA) have announced the service will only run as far as Redcar.

Steve Payne, of the TVCA, said the service would be too costly.

A TransPennine Express service currently runs from Middlesbrough to Manchester Airport.
Existing franchise

Mr Payne said: "It's been a major challenge to build in extra time at both the Manchester Airport end and the Middlesbrough end to ensure that the timetable can be operated reliably.

"The turnarounds were too tight in the existing franchise so they were not able to make those commitments to Saltburn.

"What this means is there isn't now the slack to run on to Saltburn without significant extra cost - it would require an additional train."

Tees Valley Mayor Ben Houchen told the Local Democracy Service he would continue to campaign for the link to Saltburn giving travellers better access to York, Leeds and Manchester.
 

drd1234

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Why do people think they have changed their minds? Will this happen at all?
 

darloscott

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Why do people think they have changed their minds? Will this happen at all?
All down to the farce of the May 2018 timetable where it was proven that 10 min turns at Manchester Airport didn't work, and these have since been extended to 40 mins. In order to keep these once the Newcastle & Middlesbrough services (currently interworked) are operated by separate fleets (802 to Newcastle and Mk5 to Middlesbrough... eventually) I believe the solution to this is to swap one of the paths across the Pennines meaning the current 10 min turns in Middlesbrough will only be extended to 40 min, instead of the planned 70 min. Therefore in 40 min the furthest you can get is Redcar and not Saltburn. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is my understanding.
 

AllensWest

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How will this work? I'm assuming that come December the Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough services will be extended to Redcar Central and Terminate/Start from there, will the train arrive at Platform 2, go over the West Dyke Road Crossing and reverse back to depart from Platform 1?
 

Darandio

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How will this work? I'm assuming that come December the Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough services will be extended to Redcar Central and Terminate/Start from there, will the train arrive at Platform 2, go over the West Dyke Road Crossing and reverse back to depart from Platform 1?

Change ends and depart from platform 2, no different to how it's done when Northern services terminate there during disruption. There is a crossover west of Redcar Central near Locke Road.
 

AllensWest

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Thanks Darandio, Obviously there is only 3 benchs and one tiny shelter on Platform 2 currently? Is there likely to be any improvements to Redcar Central and will TPE take over the running of the station? The limited ticket office opening hours surely could be addressed.
 

Darandio

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Thanks Darandio, Obviously there is only 3 benchs and one tiny shelter on Platform 2 currently? Is there likely to be any improvements to Redcar Central and will TPE take over the running of the station? The limited ticket office opening hours surely could be addressed.

It will still be run by Northern and I wouldn't expect any changes whatsoever, we've already had our small batch of improvements for the next two decades! I'd be interested to know whether @ainsworth74 feels the same.
 

AllensWest

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It will still be run by Northern and I wouldn't expect any changes whatsoever, we've already had our small batch of improvements for the next two decades! I'd be interested to know whether @ainsworth74 feels the same.
Thanks @Darandio . Would it not be possible for it to run down to Redcar as normal then cross over onto platform 1 on the said cross over near Locke Road. As a side note I don't suppose you know when the pacers that currently serve Redcar are due to be upgraded and what type of train will replace them. I've recently took up getting the train daily from Redcar to Middlesbrough for my commute.
 

Darandio

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Thanks @Darandio . Would it not be possible for it to run down to Redcar as normal then cross over onto platform 1 on the said cross over near Locke Road. As a side note I don't suppose you know when the pacers that currently serve Redcar are due to be upgraded and what type of train will replace them. I've recently took up getting the train daily from Redcar to Middlesbrough for my commute.

The crossover is down line to up line so it isn't possible. Pacers should be replaced with a mix of Class 156 and Class 158, but don't be surprised to see the Class 142 still operate beyond the end of year deadline.

Just to clarify further for those unfamiliar with the layout at Redcar Central. Train (route denoted by red line) would come in from the left, change ends and the starting signal would be R224. Train crosses over just before Locke Road (Bridge 63).

RCC.jpg
 
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ainsworth74

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Hello! I was summoned!

Kinda view it the same way as @Darandio broadly. I don't see it changing hands to TPE just for the sake of one train per hour (indeed if I had my way I'd change Middlesbrough, Thornaby and Yarm to Northern stations!) and whilst it would obviously be nicer if the departing trains left from the "main" platform where the ticket office is the infrastructure isn't there to really make it practical considering the existence of a crossover from down to up from P2. I also can't see any other changes coming about either. P2 has a waiting shelter, screens and a TVM whilst the ticket office over on P1 is open on a one shift basis (0750 to 1445 with lunch from 1215 to 1245). So to open more would require Northern to probably take on at least one more member of staff if not several more. To be honest I think we should in may ways be grateful we even have a ticket office! It wasn't many years ago that it appeared on a DfT hit list of ticket offices that could be closed (and ever since I make an effort to try and buy things like season tickets or other non-online tickets from there).

I am, however, a bit more postive about Pacer replacement. As @Darandio says it'll be 156 and 158s up here replacing 142 but I'm a bit more confident that the 142s will be gone by the end of the year. Indeed I idly wonder if we might not be the first to be rid of them as diagrammed traction!
 

swt_passenger

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Re-reading this thread back from the beginning, my obvious question is did this ever reach the stage of a formal track access proposal?

It seems to be yet another service where the so called ‘green light’ :rolleyes: is little more than an agreement by some official body to ask for it. Was it ever likely?
 

darloscott

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I am, however, a bit more postive about Pacer replacement. As @Darandio says it'll be 156 and 158s up here replacing 142 but I'm a bit more confident that the 142s will be gone by the end of the year. Indeed I idly wonder if we might not be the first to be rid of them as diagrammed traction!

Given it’s almost the only route in the NE corner still left running 142s I wouldn’t be so sure. It seems the only Pacers left beyond December will be 144s though so I don’t see them lasting much longer.
 

ainsworth74

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Given it’s almost the only route in the NE corner still left running 142s I wouldn’t be so sure. It seems the only Pacers left beyond December will be 144s though so I don’t see them lasting much longer.
It's just a gut feeling based on Heaton's allocation of 156s and 158s building up quite nicely. I wouldn't be surprised if the 142s last for a while yet but equally I wouldn't rule out their diagrammed work coming to an end in the North East early on. Also note I said diagrammed, Heaton supplies units to a lot of areas outside of the North East so it may well retain an allocation of 142 beyond their diagrammed use in the North East which would mean they could still appear as cover even if they have no booked work.
 

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Esker-pades

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And as if by magic the services have appeared in RTT. For example:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/RCC/2019/12/16/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

(Note: Northern haven't uploaded their services yet hence why there's only TPE)

Interesting that they are going to use the loop over the crossing, I would honestly have expected them to arrive and turn straight around.
In the current timetables there's an XX:56 service to Saltburn. If it sat in platform 2 from XX:50 to XX:07, it would block the existing service.
 

ainsworth74

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In the current timetables there's an XX:56 service to Saltburn. If it sat in platform 2 from XX:50 to XX:07, it would block the existing service.

Yes I'm aware of that (I use an xx56 semi-regularly to get home!) but had assumed that the timetabling would look a bit different. For one thing I didn't anticipate they'd still have so much slack at Redcar.
 

Esker-pades

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Yes I'm aware of that (I use an xx56 semi-regularly to get home!) but had assumed that the timetabling would look a bit different. For one thing I didn't anticipate they'd still have so much slack at Redcar.
As the Northern timetables haven't been released, my best guess is that they'd have to show that it wouldn't interfere with the existing services.
 

ainsworth74

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Interestingly this means that Redcar now has a later last train with the 2236 from Middlesbrough being the last train to call from that direction at 2246. A whole half an hour later than present. Also the last train of the day from Redcar will be the 2307 to York (you can get to York leaving at 2307!!!) but that's only ten minutes after the last Northern.
 

pennine

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Interestingly this means that Redcar now has a later last train with the 2236 from Middlesbrough being the last train to call from that direction at 2246. A whole half an hour later than present. Also the last train of the day from Redcar will be the 2307 to York (you can get to York leaving at 2307!!!) but that's only ten minutes after the last Northern.

Have to say, this looks impressive!
 

AllensWest

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Really is brilliant for Redcar. Direct links to lots of major City’s without the need to change at Middlesbrough. As a side note I really hope they tidy up platform 2 before this service starts. Especially the old station building and the metal fencing currently surrounding it. Tonight there was kids climbing into and onto the roof.
 

ainsworth74

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Have to say, this looks impressive!
Doesn't it? I'm honestly a bit surprised at how good it looks! I really did think that if it did go ahead it wouldn't be as comprehensive as this looks to be with only one train (very early in the morning) starting from Middlesbrough and everything else running through to/from Redcar Central. Good work to everyone that made it happen!
 

Darandio

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Interesting that they are going to use the loop over the crossing, I would honestly have expected them to arrive and turn straight around.

All of those slow extra movements over an already notorious slow closing/opening crossing. Gonna please a few here!
 

ainsworth74

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All of those slow extra movements over an already notorious slow closing/opening crossing. Gonna please a few here!
Yes I had idly thought that as well :lol:

I don't drive in Redcar very often so it doesn't bother me but I'm aware that it's a bone of contention. My mum was once caught there for maybe 15 minutes due to the number of trains crossing one after the other.
 

AllensWest

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Yes I had idly thought that as well :lol:

I don't drive in Redcar very often so it doesn't bother me but I'm aware that it's a bone of contention. My mum was once caught there for maybe 15 minutes due to the number of trains crossing one after the other.
Sorry, Does this mean the train is going to arrive at platform 2, go across the west dyke level crossing - wait near the signal box then come back through the said crossing at time of departure, departing from platform 2? or Platform 1?
This morning the crossing was out of service and road closed. It causes trafficchaos with the current operations let alone another 2 closures per hour. The only negative to this I can see!
 

Darandio

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Yes I had idly thought that as well :lol:

I don't drive in Redcar very often so it doesn't bother me but I'm aware that it's a bone of contention. My mum was once caught there for maybe 15 minutes due to the number of trains crossing one after the other.

I can see the potential for an extra 8-10 minutes of closure per hour, this could mean a near 30 minutes of closure altogether per hour. Of course many crossings have similar or worse time periods but i'd wager many aren't as tightly packed as this area in Redcar and don't have such a slow mechanical system of closure. With 3 way traffic lights 60m or so away and then the busy entrance to Morrisons 30m further around the corner, traffic can back up down West Dyke Road and throughout Morrisons with the current situation, this could make it interesting to say the least!
 

wezmerc

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Really surprised they are going through the crossing with all it's associated affects on traffic. Also confused as I thought one of the few operational benefits of carrying on to Redcar was the ease of changing ends for the driver on the platform, yet this suggests a walk along the track in the loop? Thirdly a lot of people will be delighted as this should make ticketless travel between Redcar and Boro the norm, unless TPE provide extra staff for the short journey. Northern guards often struggle to cover a single pacer nevermind a 5 carriage TPE.
 
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