Acceptable Law Breaking (and other morality questions)

Mag_seven said:

I don't know why you couldn't just have posted the question in that thread!

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hexagon789 said:

I don't see any issues with using foreign currency or non-legal tender to release a trolley, in my view its no different to using a key chain token or similar.

As for spending money, of its foreign currency I'd perhaps have qualms with that but specifically a Gibraltar pound - no. They are exchangeable on par with Sterling and if the supermarket or shop accepted it they can always exchange it.

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DarloRich said:

You are overthinking it and should relax more. It isn't worth worrying about.

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Calthrop said:

I don't know the ins-and-outs of "what from the Commonwealth maybe is or isn't" -- so tend to err always on the "it's foreign rubbish" side. A good many years ago, I got in change a Falkland Islands pound coin -- which I long kept and cherished for its sheer weirdness (lost it purely by mischance) -- wonder how exchangeable / acceptable that might have been, if I'd tried?
..

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big all said:

havent read the whole thread [very liittle indeed ]
but on basic principle if you you use as designed leave the trolly where required after use
or swop it with the same token or coin being recieved from another person then you have complete a transaction
accepting a coin or token when non is present in the trolly at exchange is stealing

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Bald Rick said:

Wow.

Do supermarkets still do trolley deposits? I haven’t been in one for years that has (in this country)!

Even so, I think you will struggle to find any rule that requires the use of £1 coin in them. Therefore using something that isn’t a £1 coin isn’t dishonest.

What is dishonest, as has happened to me a long time ago, is for someone to offer you their trolley before the trolley racks, give them £1 for it, and then find something that isn’t a pound in the slot when you take it back.

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Bald Rick said:

Wow.

Do supermarkets still do trolley deposits? I haven’t been in one for years that has (in this country)!

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Bald Rick said:

I have spent Falkland Island pound coins (and Gib, Jersey, Guernsey and IoM) in this country without any problem.

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Bald Rick said:

Do supermarkets still do trolley deposits? I haven’t been in one for years that has (in this country)!

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SteveP29 said:

A few of the smaller Tesco's in the densely populated areas of Edinburgh still have them

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Calthrop said:

I don't know the ins-and-outs of "what from the Commonwealth maybe is or isn't" -- so tend to err always on the "it's foreign rubbish" side. A good many years ago, I got in change a Falkland Islands pound coin -- which I long kept and cherished for its sheer weirdness (lost it purely by mischance) -- wonder how exchangeable / acceptable that might have been, if I'd tried?

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Calthrop said:

A post prompted by the thread in "General Discussion" a while ago, Acceptable Law Breaking (and other morality questions).

There are people who reckon themselves bound to behave with the most strict and meticulous honesty, even in matters which most would consider absurdly trivial -- a Christian angle on this, for example Luke 16:10 -- "He who is faithful in a very little thing is faithful also in much; and he who is unrighteous in a very little thing is unrighteous also in much". While reckoning myself on the strongly-honest side of things, I don't take such matters to the most ultimate extreme -- but feel that such an approach is admirable, even if a little mad; and enjoy occasionally musing on the theme.

Was lately pondering thus, the issue of supermarket trolleys and the standard £1 coin deposit used with them. There are tokens the size and shape of a pound coin, which are of essentially no value, but can be used for supermarket trolley access, saving for the shopper an extra pound coin which they can spend on wares from the supermarket. Or -- the same principle -- occasionally one gets in one's change, a pound coin from elsewhere in the Commonwealth: the size and shape of a standard UK one, but not spendable in Britain; or there are coins from altogether other nations, of the approximate right size and shape to do the job. (I had lately, for some while, a Gibraltar pound which I had un-realisedly got in change, and I used that for supermarket trolleys, in lieu of a "real" pound coin.)

It occurred to me to wonder whether this is a thing which an exponent of 100% total strict honesty ought to eschew, as an act of defrauding the supermarket of "real" money. On taking thought, I concluded that there is fundamentally no element of dishonesty here: because the £1 coin deposit and the locking / unlocking device, are not involved in actually purchasing anything from the supermarket. The £1 deposit's function, is to discourage people from taking a trolley away from the supermarket and ultimately not bringing it back, but doing with it ... whatever they might choose to do. If you want to thus take a trolley away, nothing is actually stopping you: it just means that you will be "out" a pound -- if you're prepared to be thus "out" a pound, you don't return the trolley, and will very probably not get into trouble for it. Each party can be seen to both lose and win: you're out a pound, but you get the trolley to do whatever you will with; the supermarket is out a trolley, but they've got hundreds of them anyway.

Tokens, or non-UK coins, can be seen still to partake of the "deterrent" factor which a standard £1 has. So far as I'm aware, the tokens are not very common -- they're not widely on sale, and are basically items sometimes handed out as "favours"; I had one which I unexpectedly received in that way, from a banking outfit. And in the nature of things, you probably can't rely on there coming into your hands very often, a non-UK coin which can impersonate a UK £1 coin. So if you take away and never return, a trolley which you've accessed with a token or a non-UK coin: you're inconvenienced by so doing -- not by forfeiting a pound which you could otherwise spend, but by forfeiting a useful item which will probably be difficult to replace. The only way I see in which such a practice could amount to cheating the supermarket, is a situation by which someone produced -- on a large scale -- pound-coin-size-and-shape tokens, and sold them for significantly less than a pound each: thus potentially encouraging "trolley-liberators" to do that stunt often, because it would be at less cost to them in cash or bother, than is seen as obtaining in the standard situation.

Highly-strictly-honest people would of course not deliberately make off with a trolley; so, and because of the above, I see no problem with their using a token or a non-UK coin to release a trolley -- doing so would not even offer a significantly higher level of temptation to do wrong, than using a standard £1 coin would. (A very-highly-honest individual who suffered from a personal quirk by which making off with supermarket trolleys was anyway, an ever-present besetting temptation to them -- would no doubt be acutely aware of this, and would put in place for themself whatever preventive measures they found appropriate.)

Would be interested in anyone's thoughts on this matter, and on whether my reasoning above, is valid -- I realise that folks' thoughts are likely to include the sentiment that I ought to get out more / have too much time on my hands !

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Howardh said:

Here's an acceptable one, moving slowly and carefully through a red light to allow an ambulance to get past.

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Jamesrob637 said:

I have four "fake" pounds. I nearly always take one to the supermarket. On the few occasions I forget and don't have a 'real' pound either, I may do two basket runs if I have a little more time; taking the basket to the car then returning it to the front of the store or in worst case placing it on top of a trolley. I wouldn't have much if any use for a shopping basket at home, plus it would look somewhat daft !

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Jamesrob637 said:

Definitely an ambulance or a fire engine as they are considerably larger, but we are crossing lines (ha ha) at other emergency vehicles.

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Calthrop said:

But I like overthinking things and worrying about abstruse nonsense...

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