Should the Concessionary Fares Scheme be 24/7?

RustySpoons · 12 Jul 2019

Stan Drews said:
Transdev are also my local operator, with no competition, and whilst the heavily subsidised Northern Railway service is cheaper, it only runs once an hour. However Transdev run from early morning to late evening, 7 days a week, up to every 7 mins during the day. They also invested in a fleet of 30 brand new buses two years ago, so they are clearly willing to provide a good level of service where it can be justified.

Sounds like you're on the Mainline in/around Burnley. However that can be inconvenient at times when the service splits at Burnley, and with no through ticketing you need to pay at least two single fares depending on where you've started the journey.

Unfortunately for anyone not on the Mainline, local services aren't great at all. People are put off using them outside of commuting because of the lack of return journeys after about 8pm - there's rarely any more than a handful of passengers on them after rush hour. Plus there's the expense, it's often cheaper to get a taxi which is a lot more convenient. Going from Higherford to Pike Hill or Harle Syke in an evening would take nearly an hour on the bus (if not longer) and you wouldn't be able to get home again whereas it'd take 15 minutes in a taxi.

LCC cutting funding for evening and sunday services are to blame, but that's another topic which I won't go into here otherwise I'll go a lot more off topic than I already have...

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Busaholic · 12 Jul 2019

Cesarcollie said:
50% more to run a tube train than a bus? Really? Where does that information come from?

Sounds like the sort of 'information' that spouts from Boris Johnson's mouth. In itself, an absolutely useless statement without explaining exactly which costs are factored in, or, more importantly, which are being totally ignored.

Stan Drews · 12 Jul 2019

Busaholic said:
Sounds like the sort of 'information' that spouts from Boris Johnson's mouth. In itself, an absolutely useless statement without explaining exactly which costs are factored in, or, more importantly, which are being totally ignored.

Don’t tube drivers earn double what bus drivers earn? So, even on that metric alone, ‘50% more’ seems like utter tosh!

Martin2012 · 12 Jul 2019

Thanks to those who responded to my query about the EU coach regulation.

Here in the Bristol area ENTCS passes can be used from 0900. Very recently I boarded a bus at 0858 and the driver made a passholder in front of me pay but on other occasions when I've boarded at that time passengers have been let on for free.

Could a passenger legitimately complain if they boarded at 0858 or 0859 and the driver charged them?

Deerfold · 12 Jul 2019

Martin2012 said:
Could a passenger legitimately complain if they boarded at 0858 or 0859 and the driver charged them?

Seriously?

Unless the company has let it be known that it's not their policy to charge at that time (or they're boarding a service which doesn't depart until 0900 or after), no.

It wouldn't surprise me if the company responded, thanking them for letting them know and telling them they'll ensure drivers are reminded not to allow passengers to use passes before 0900.

Eyersey468 · 14 Jul 2019

Martin2012 said:
Could a passenger legitimately complain if they boarded at 0858 or 0859 and the driver charged them?

Unless the service is due to go at or after 0900 then no.

Typhoon · 14 Jul 2019

Martin2012 said:
Could a passenger legitimately complain if they boarded at 0858 or 0859 and the driver charged them?

I have seen cases where it is marked on the timetable that passengers can join a particular journey at a particular time. Usually because the next journey (if one exists) is some time away. This makes absolute sense because it is then clear to passengers, other residents, staff, other officials exactly what the situation is. The only exception is that in #126, #127 where the bus arrives early (possibly because it is the start of the journey) and pass holders are allowed on to swipe their passes to permit a smooth departure at the correct time.

Won't allowing pass holders on early reduce revenue for the company (unless the driver manipulates loadings later - with the risk to his job).

Eyersey468 · 15 Jul 2019

Yes if the driver let's the pass holder board before the start time it will reduce revenue as the council won't pay the bus company unless either the bus is due to go at the start time or the council has made an exception for that particular service.

Belperpete · 15 Jul 2019

Eyersey468 said:
Yes if the driver let's the pass holder board before the start time it will reduce revenue as the council won't pay the bus company unless either the bus is due to go at the start time or the council has made an exception for that particular service.

Well, that's one way of looking at it. Another is that rigidly enforcing the start time would also reduce revenue: some of the passengers would wait for the next bus, but some of the passengers wouldn't travel at all, if the next bus didn't get them to their destination in time, and so the bus company would lose their revenue. Where buses are hourly or less frequent, and there is plenty of spare seats, it makes sense to be a bit flexible.

Deerfold · 15 Jul 2019

Belperpete said:
Well, that's one way of looking at it. Another is that rigidly enforcing the start time would also reduce revenue: some of the passengers would wait for the next bus, but some of the passengers wouldn't travel at all, if the next bus didn't get them to their destination in time, and so the bus company would lose their revenue. Where buses are hourly or less frequent, and there is plenty of spare seats, it makes sense to be a bit flexible.

If the council refuses to pay because passes have been accepted too early, how can the company lose any more revenue?

Belperpete · 15 Jul 2019

Deerfold said:
If the council refuses to pay because passes have been accepted too early, how can the company lose any more revenue?

As explained previously

where I live, it seems to be common practice for the driver to wave the pass holders on for free until 9.30, when they all file back up to the front of the bus to swipe their cards!

So the bus company gets the revenue for the remainder of the journey.

Deerfold · 15 Jul 2019

Belperpete said:
As explained previously So the bus company gets the revenue for the remainder of the journey.

It wasn't clear that's what you were suggesting - are you suggesting those on passes all return to the front of the bus after the time passes become valid?

Wouldn't councils complain that this is effectively meaning the companies are breaking their rules and getting them to pay for journeys which are earlier?

Belperpete · 15 Jul 2019

Deerfold said:
It wasn't clear that's what you were suggesting - are you suggesting those on passes all return to the front of the bus after the time passes become valid?

I am not suggesting it - it is what actually happens.

Deerfold said:
Wouldn't councils complain that this is effectively meaning the companies are breaking their rules and getting them to pay for journeys which are earlier?

The councils only pay for the journeys after the card is swiped, at or after 09:30 - they aren't paying for anything before 0930, so I can't see why they would complain.

Deerfold · 15 Jul 2019

Belperpete said:
I am not suggesting it - it is what actually happens.

Does it? Where?

Belperpete said:
The councils only pay for the journeys after the card is swiped, at or after 09:30 - they aren't paying for anything before 0930, so I can't see why they would complain.

But if no-one is paying for the journey before 0930, the council is subsidising the bus company to accept passes earlier than they specify. I can certainly see them objecting if they find out about it (and given a huge bump at the stop the bus passes after 0930, councils who bother analysing the data they get may well find out about it). They may even argue the bus company is fraudulently accepting passes.

Paul’s · 16 Jul 2019

I may have missed or this not the right thread to ask , what is the average revenue receives to the bus companies from the local council. When someone travels after 09:30 am. My local bus company (G.M.P.T.E/Stagecoach). I do pay half the fare, before 09:30am, during the week. But weekends and bank holiday is any time. I am a holder of a Transport for Greater Manchester Disabled concessionary card. And the comment on the bottom says. Concessionary travel funded by HM Government with your local authority.

Belperpete · 16 Jul 2019

Deerfold said:
Does it? Where?

I see it happening regularly where I live.

Deerfold said:
But if no-one is paying for the journey before 0930, the council is subsidising the bus company to accept passes earlier than they specify.

If they are only paying for the journey after 0930, how are they subsidising the journey before 0930?

Deerfold said:
They may even argue the bus company is fraudulently accepting passes.

The bus company is only accepting the passes after 0930, exactly as per the rules, how can that be fraud? If the passengers are carried for free before 0930, that is purely a matter for the bus company.

Deerfold · 16 Jul 2019

Belperpete said:
I see it happening regularly where I live.

That doesn't help me with where.

Does the bus company advertise they do this, or is it only for those in the know?

Belperpete said:
If they are only paying for the journey after 0930, how are they subsidising the journey before 0930?

The bus company is only accepting the passes after 0930, exactly as per the rules, how can that be fraud? If the passengers are carried for free before 0930, that is purely a matter for the bus company.

I'm confused. You said companies had to be flexible and not rigidly enforce the start time when they were accepted.

Belperpete said:
Well, that's one way of looking at it. Another is that rigidly enforcing the start time would also reduce revenue: some of the passengers would wait for the next bus, but some of the passengers wouldn't travel at all, if the next bus didn't get them to their destination in time, and so the bus company would lose their revenue. Where buses are hourly or less frequent, and there is plenty of spare seats, it makes sense to be a bit flexible.

If the passenger would have to wait until 1000 to use their pass from their local stop, but the bus company permits them to travel on the previous bus to the next village for free they're using the pass earlier than they would have done.

Would the passenger be allowed to travel to the first stop where the bus is after the pass start time if they then get off the bus and do not use the pass? If not, they're only being allowed free travel because they have a pass - and being allowed it before the time the local authority sets.

Deerfold · 16 Jul 2019

Paul’s said:
I may have missed or this not the right thread to ask , what is the average revenue receives to the bus companies from the local council. When someone travels after 09:30 am. My local bus company (G.M.P.T.E/Stagecoach). I do pay half the fare, before 09:30am, during the week. But weekends and bank holiday is any time. I am a holder of a Transport for Greater Manchester Disabled concessionary card. And the comment on the bottom says. Concessionary travel funded by HM Government with your local authority.

The reimbursement rates tend not to be advertised by either the council or the bus companies. It is known to vary widely by authority.

mmh · 16 Jul 2019

RustySpoons said:
This is something I mentioned on another topic on here regarding the way bus companies are losing out with the repayments from councils.

It was pointed out that yes, whilst they have been paying taxes and contributing to the system, they were never paying towards free bus travel when they retire. Cash strapped councils who are making cuts all over the place can hardly afford to pay the difference as it is.

That's not really true. Everyone expected they'd get a bus pass at 60 or 65, in the same way they expected they'd get a state pension.

F Great Eastern · 16 Jul 2019

It's 24 hours a day in Ireland countrywide by train and bus for companions as well and there is ongoing debate in society about whether it should be limited to local travel only and if companions should have a pass.

The widespread belief is that any political party that would remove the pass would be essentially commiting electoral suicide as about 20% of the population are entitled to it, although some are annoyed with rush hour trains being filled with non payers when they cannot get a seat.

Busaholic · 16 Jul 2019

Deerfold said:
The reimbursement rates tend not to be advertised by either the council or the bus companies. It is known to vary widely by authority.

There has been some evidence that certain councils vary the reimbursement rates according to the operator too: the whole thing seems shrouded in secrecy, which can't be good.

Tetchytyke · 16 Jul 2019

mmh said:
Everyone expected they'd get a bus pass at 60 or 65,

ENCTS was created in 2009.

So no, they didn't.

Belperpete · 17 Jul 2019

Deerfold said:
That doesn't help me with where.

Why is it so important for you to know where this is happening? All sorts of rules get bent in rural areas, on the "what they don't see won't harm them" principle.

Deerfold said:
Does the bus company advertise they do this, or is it only for those in the know?

You are adding two and two to make five. I said

where I live, it seems to be common practice

I have NOT said that it is official bus company policy.

Deerfold said:
I'm confused. You said companies had to be flexible and not rigidly enforce the start time when they were accepted.

No I didn't - nowhere have I said that bus companies have to be flexible. You said that letting passengers on before time would reduce revenue, I countered that rigidly enforcing the time would reduce revenue.

Deerfold said:
they're only being allowed free travel because they have a pass - and being allowed it before the time the local authority sets.

In rural areas, it is not uncommon for all sorts of people to be waved on without paying, not just before-time pass-holders. Are these non-pass holders also costing the local authority?

Deerfold · 17 Jul 2019

Belperpete said:
Why is it so important for you to know where this is happening? All sorts of rules get bent in rural areas, on the "what they don't see won't harm them" principle.

I'm sorry. I thought your argument was this was completely legitimate.

Belperpete said:
You are adding two and two to make five. I said I have NOT said that it is official bus company policy.

I haven't said it is. I was asking.

Belperpete said:
No I didn't - nowhere have I said that bus companies have to be flexible. You said that letting passengers on before time would reduce revenue, I countered that rigidly enforcing the time would reduce revenue.

What is the opposite of being rigid if it's not being flexible?
Please don't accuse me of lying when you've used that very phrase.

Belperpete said:
Well, that's one way of looking at it. Another is that rigidly enforcing the start time would also reduce revenue:
...
Where buses are hourly or less frequent, and there is plenty of spare seats, it makes sense to be a bit flexible.

Belperpete said:
In rural areas, it is not uncommon for all sorts of people to be waved on without paying, not just before-time pass-holders. Are these non-pass holders also costing the local authority?

Is it? I've never come across that.
If that's what's happening then it's not what I described. I specifically described the situation where only pass holders were allowed to board early.

Busaholic · 17 Jul 2019

Arctic Troll said:
ENCTS was created in 2009.

So no, they didn't.

You know well that free bus passes for the elderly long predated 2009: it was only the interavailability that started in 2009. Many of the elderly never use the pass outside their own area, and most don't on a regular basis.

Tetchytyke · 17 Jul 2019

Busaholic said:
You know well that free bus passes for the elderly long predated 2009

Not that long; most schemes were flat-fare (West Yorkshire was 30p a ride) and local area only.

Deerfold · 17 Jul 2019

Arctic Troll said:
Not that long; most schemes were flat-fare (West Yorkshire was 30p a ride) and local area only.

There were still bus passes. For many years the West Yorkshire pass did give free travel before charging 15p, later 20p and then 30p.

Other areas really did have still free bus passes - notably London (though back then they were just for buses).

Tetchytyke · 17 Jul 2019

Deerfold said:
They were still bus passes.

They weren't free passes though, nor nationwide.

Deerfold · 17 Jul 2019

Arctic Troll said:
They weren't free passes though, nor nationwide.

Sorry, that should have said "There were still bus passes". And for many years they were free.

Do many holders make use of the nationwide aspect of their passes?

Belperpete · 17 Jul 2019

Deerfold said:
What is the opposite of being rigid if it's not being flexible?
Please don't accuse me of lying when you've used that very phrase.

No I did not. Agreed that I used the word flexible, but nowhere did I use any phrase to the effect that bus companies HAVE to be flexible.

Should the Concessionary Fares Scheme be 24/7?

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