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Could Heritage Railways ever go faster?

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Peter C

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I must look at photos of Bittern on her 90mph runs, I don't recall seeing headlights but then I wasn't looking for them.
A4_%27Bittern%27_goes_for_the_90mph_limit_through_Arlesey_on_the_East_Coast_Main_Line._-_panoramio.jpg

Here we go. Not my photo :) Not sure if these are modern ones or not, as in whether they use oil or LEDs (or equivalent)


-Peter
 
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Peter C

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And they can go faster I believe. I'm sure that way back when it was Howey's railway he got something up to 60, I forget what though.
Here is something from Tim Dunn's Twitter feed, a while ago:
https://twitter.com/mrtimdunn/status/987063701655228417?lang=en
One of the two creators of the Romney, Hythe & Dymchurch Railway in Kent - Captain Howey - had his Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost car rebuilt into a locomotive to drive along his 13-mile long train-set. He drove it at a terrifying 60mph - on @RHDR tracks just 15" wide.


DbLBBQNXcAAPzYq.jpg

-Peter
 

Peter C

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They look like battery lamps but not headlights but I'm not really sure tbh.
OK. Thanks. I'm not too sure myself but maybe someone else could help out here.

That would be it! Would've been quite a ride I imagine! :lol:
Yes, it would have been! Imagine speeding around like that today... no chance! Mr Health and Mr Safety would be all over that!

-Peter
 

Cowley

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Here is something from Tim Dunn's Twitter feed, a while ago:
https://twitter.com/mrtimdunn/status/987063701655228417?lang=en


-Peter
What it doesn’t say there (and it may have actually been a different vehicle) I think stated in the book “One Mans Railway” is that on one of his blistering runs he didn’t even slow down for some of the open crossings!
Re the Rolls Royce conversion - I think RR weren’t too impressed with what he’d done and were a bit sniffy when it came to supplying spare parts.
 

Peter C

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What it doesn’t say there (and it may have actually been a different vehicle) I think stated in the book “One Mans Railway” is that on one of his blistering runs he didn’t even slow down for some of the open crossings!
Re the Rolls Royce conversion - I think RR weren’t too impressed with what he’d done and were a bit sniffy when it came to supplying spare parts.
Oh gosh! Are we sure that he was alright?! :)

I'm surprised that RR didn't want to supply spare parts; surely he could have just said "I want some parts" and leave out the whole train bit?

-Peter
 

Cowley

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Oh gosh! Are we sure that he was alright?! :)

I'm surprised that RR didn't want to supply spare parts; surely he could have just said "I want some parts" and leave out the whole train bit?

-Peter
I think was more to do with him sticking the sacrosanct RR grille on the front of it.
The one pictured was the second version, the first one was a more old fashioned looking machine.

Ok dragging this back on topic: What’s the arrangement with the North Yorkshire Moors where they run onto Network Rail metals? I believe they run at 35mph, but do they have central locking?
 

Peter C

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I think was more to do with him sticking the sacrosanct RR grille on the front of it.
The one pictured was the second version, the first one was a more old fashioned looking machine.

Ok dragging this back on topic: What’s the arrangement with the North Yorkshire Moors where they run onto Network Rail metals? I believe they run at 35mph, but do they have central locking?
Oh OK.

Having been on the NYMR, I can say that they do not have central door locking, but from memory they don't travel for a long time on the Network Rail track so they could probably get away with it. Do the Mk1s on railtours have Central Door Locking?
NR requires the NYMR to have certified engines for the Whitby services. The coaches didn't seem to have any modern features apart from the obligatory stickers saying "don't stick ya head out".

-Peter
 

paul1609

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Taking the longest heritage railway as 23 miles in length a theoreticall non stop run at 40 mph versus 25 mph would save just under 20 minutes. Put in intermediate stations and restrictions (for passing loops) this saving would be down to single figure minutes, taking the additional costs incurred I don't believe this would ever be financially viable.
The NYMR can operate at line speed on the Esk Valley Line if their coaches which are fitted with manual bolts are manned by extra stewards. I understand that they are not normally provided and the trains are restricted to 25 mph.
 

Cowley

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Taking the longest heritage railway as 23 miles in length a theoreticall non stop run at 40 mph versus 25 mph would save just under 20 minutes. Put in intermediate stations and restrictions (for passing loops) this saving would be down to single figure minutes, taking the additional costs incurred I don't believe this would ever be financially viable.
The NYMR can operate at line speed on the Esk Valley Line if their coaches which are fitted with manual bolts are manned by extra stewards. I understand that they are not normally provided and the trains are restricted to 25 mph.
Thanks for filling in the details there Paul.
 

broadgage

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I'm fairly sure they use some sort of modern headlight. They don't use oil lamps for sure! :)

-Peter

Yes, steamers used on the main line use a modern headlight. Designs are available that look reasonably traditional. No reason something similar could not be used on a future 40 MPH heritage line.
 

Peter C

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Yes, steamers used on the main line use a modern headlight. Designs are available that look reasonably traditional. No reason something similar could not be used on a future 40 MPH heritage line.
Thought so.

Thanks,

-Peter
 

trainmania100

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Guessing they'd need to step up they're safety and security before they increase the speed limits which would otherwise take longer to stop in an emergency
 

alexl92

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A class 08 isn't geared highly enough to even reach 25 mph let alone going up a steep bank with 5 on.

08's are either 15 or 20 mph max depending on the model.

09s are quite useful to heritage railways - they're a higher-geared version of the 08 and can do 27mph.

You're all absolutely right - but at least subbing in a 20mph 08 doesn't have the same impact on timetable on a 25mph line as subbing a 30mph tank enigne on a 40mph line would, hypothetically.

My question is: why?

It often seems this kind of question is generated by posters being too tight to pay for a mainline steam charter
I politely object to your use of the word tight - I'd love to go on a charter but my disposable income does not stretch to even the cost of the lowest price ticket for a S&C/SSE run.

However, I also feel that 25mph is enough for heritage railways so I guess I'm middle ground here.
 

Aictos

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The fact remains that if you want to ride on heritage rolling stock at speeds faster then 25mph then there’s a simple answer, buy tickets to ride on charters!
 

Belperpete

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Even a modest increase in linespeed can need a significant amount of track and bridge work, particularly with the oversized locos that many preserved lines seem to use on a routine basis. One line that I know has spent a lot of effort (and cash) on PW to achieve fairly modest 5mph increases in speed within the 25 mph limit. Unfortunately rolling stock (and particularly locos) tend to get the limelight, and the volunteers and the cash, while routine PW work is less glamorous and so doesn't tend to pull in the same support. I can imagine what the WSR PW guys might think of the idea of a heavyweight HST set regularly pummeling their line at 40 mph!
 

Tom B

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Wasn't there a quote from a railway inspector from a few years ago who said something along the lines of, "your limit is 25mph and we tacitly know that's 30mph sometimes, so if we allowed 30mph you'd be doing 40" - I'm sure I've heard that quoted!
 

NorthernSpirit

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I think that they could go faster but the steamers would have to be restricted to 25 mph.

Considering that the High Speed Trains, Pacers and the class 153 Sprinters are close to retirement maybe just maybe the speed could be increased to 45 mph on the more suitable heritage lines since these type of rolling stock will have the latest safety equiptment fitted / retofitted.

I can't imagine seeing a Pacer, half a Sprinter (a 153) or even an HST on the Bluebell Railway but I can on the West Somerset Railway, the Bluebell Railway will always be stuck in the 1880's where as the West Somerset Railway will more or less be straddling three centuries with various types of late 20th century rolling stock.

The other thing to note is that the steamers won't last forever.
 

centraltrains

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The fact remains that if you want to ride on heritage rolling stock at speeds faster then 25mph then there’s a simple answer, buy tickets to ride on charters!
Have you seen the prices they charge? :o

Personally as a few others have expressed, I'd be concerned about lower limits when the amazing sprinters [especially 150s] go into preservation [assuming someone takes a few...]. Almost feel like there should be a separate "new heritage" line built for "modern age" trains which could have such higher limit, but that's just a pipe dream.
 

Aictos

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Have you seen the prices they charge? :o

Personally as a few others have expressed, I'd be concerned about lower limits when the amazing sprinters [especially 150s] go into preservation [assuming someone takes a few...]. Almost feel like there should be a separate "new heritage" line built for "modern age" trains which could have such higher limit, but that's just a pipe dream.

Yes I know how much they charge but there is a market for it and also it’s the best way if you want experience heritage rolling stock at speeds faster then 25mph!
 

Journeyman

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I think that they could go faster but the steamers would have to be restricted to 25 mph.

Considering that the High Speed Trains, Pacers and the class 153 Sprinters are close to retirement maybe just maybe the speed could be increased to 45 mph on the more suitable heritage lines since these type of rolling stock will have the latest safety equiptment fitted / retofitted.

I can't imagine seeing a Pacer, half a Sprinter (a 153) or even an HST on the Bluebell Railway but I can on the West Somerset Railway, the Bluebell Railway will always be stuck in the 1880's where as the West Somerset Railway will more or less be straddling three centuries with various types of late 20th century rolling stock.

The other thing to note is that the steamers won't last forever.

Well, steamers are generally lightly used and well looked after, and so they pretty much will last forever. My local heritage railway has facilities to machine brand new parts and does so regularly.

Early diesels are simple enough machines to look after as well, but I think a lot of later kit, certainly stuff entering service this century, is going to prove extremely difficult for heritage railways to maintain in operational condition. A 170 or 185, for example, is pretty complex and has a lot of specialist kit in it. Keeping that going in a basic facility in a rural area is going to be a huge challenge.
 

Glen M

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Wasn't there a quote from a railway inspector from a few years ago who said something along the lines of, "your limit is 25mph and we tacitly know that's 30mph sometimes, so if we allowed 30mph you'd be doing 40" - I'm sure I've heard that quoted!
You forget that the Light Railway Order doesn't say that 'A strict 25mph limit must be observed', it says an 'average speed of 25mph' so yes you do get faster running when necessary to make up time or if there are limits in place on certain parts of the line.
 

Journeyman

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You forget that the Light Railway Order doesn't say that 'A strict 25mph limit must be observed', it says an 'average speed of 25mph' so yes you do get faster running when necessary to make up time or if there are limits in place on certain parts of the line.

You can't get away with doing that any more. Speed limits are now much more strictly enforced, and many railways have fitted GPS devices to their locos to ensure speeding doesn't occur. If you give people the option to break the rules, it'll become a serious problem.
 

Cowley

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You can't get away with doing that any more. Speed limits are now much more strictly enforced, and many railways have fitted GPS devices to their locos to ensure speeding doesn't occur. If you give people the option to break the rules, it'll become a serious problem.
Plus factoring in people excitedly posting videos of anything speeding on YouTube etc and mentioning what the speed was showing on their personal GPS equipped phones.
This has definitely happened a few times.
 

Calthrop

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Reckon to have come up with the perfect name for any heritage railway to give to the loco considered its (maybe illicit) best speedster: Red Queen. From Chapter 2 of Lewis Carroll's Alice Through the Looking-Glass: the heroine lands up in a surreal game of chess, where many of the crucial characters are chess pieces -- including the Red Queen, who is big on running everywhere, dragging her companions along with her: her perpetual motto is "Faster ! Faster !" (no matter how fast she runs, she can't do better than stay in the same place -- but that's by the way).
 

RLBH

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You forget that the Light Railway Order doesn't say that 'A strict 25mph limit must be observed', it says an 'average speed of 25mph' so yes you do get faster running when necessary to make up time or if there are limits in place on certain parts of the line.
The Light Railways Act doesn't actually specify a limit, and in any case is no longer the governing legislation - that's theTransport and Works Act 1992.

As I understand it, each heritage railway operates under a safety case that will, amongst other things, specify a speed limit, and which has been accepted by the regulator. If someone wanted to make the case that measures X, Y and Z would ensure that operating at (say) 45mph achieved an acceptable level of safety, they would be more than welcome to do so. And the regulator would assess their application for increased speeds, making a decision on that basis. The NYMR's runs to Whitby, and their reluctance to implement the measures needed to run over 25mph, suggest that it's probably not worth the cost of generating the paperwork.
 

duffield

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The Light Railways Act doesn't actually specify a limit, and in any case is no longer the governing legislation - that's theTransport and Works Act 1992.

As I understand it, each heritage railway operates under a safety case that will, amongst other things, specify a speed limit, and which has been accepted by the regulator. If someone wanted to make the case that measures X, Y and Z would ensure that operating at (say) 45mph achieved an acceptable level of safety, they would be more than welcome to do so. And the regulator would assess their application for increased speeds, making a decision on that basis. The NYMR's runs to Whitby, and their reluctance to implement the measures needed to run over 25mph, suggest that it's probably not worth the cost of generating the paperwork.

As per above, 25mph is not fixed in law, and it *seems* that the one thing that is non-negotiable with the regulator is secondary door locking to go over 25mph. I would guess that with that proviso the GCR (in particular) might be able to run 40mph passenger services under certain conditions on at least part of the line, especially given that the infrastructure already permits this for non-passenger services; however I would imagine this is pretty low on their list of priorities after 'Bridging the gap' and the Museum, and I'm not sure if it would ever make financial sense!

As an aside, I'm not at all convinced that falling out of a moving train at 25mph is significantly less likely to be fatal than at 35mph!
 
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