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Unusable seats on Northern trains

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WestRiding

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May as well put hard shell plastic seats in em', wipe clean and cheap. Like some foreign buses i went on in Italy. Northern seem to forget that their trains run through some right sh~t holes, couple that with poor maintainance, whats the point in fabric. If its not looked after by the public and the company, dont even try making it nice.
 
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The seat stains don't look great, and the skirting looks dirty. It seems with Northern, this franchise and the old one, an inability to keep the trains looking clean and not tatty which no amount of refurbs will solve if maintenance is not kept on top of.

Starting to get a feeling that the trains being tatty and not clean is actually a franchise requirement, so religious is Northern's adherence to it!
 
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Nonetheless as I have said in the past, lighting diffusers on the 150/1 and the porterbrook 156s could well make any lighting less harsh and not make the trains look as old as they are!

I also agree with the general comments about the undiffused lighting on the 150s. Nothing says tarted up on the cheap, nearly life-expired, smelly, noisy old BR diesel stock than undiffused lighting. Coudn't they have spent just a little bit more and done something with the lights. Heck, the lighting on the 319s is also rather nasty but at least it's diffused.

OT but actually it strikes me just how much lighting (levels of it, colour temperature and the light fittings themselves) contribute to the overall ambiance and modernity of any given train. The 442s are about as old as the 319s but do not look nor feel it, sure the seating and overall design to "intercity" standards as opposed to "commuter" train mean they'll inherently be better but still, the lighting makes a massive difference, it's not only about age. Proof also is that the 323s feel a world apart from 319s in terms of modernity, while the 365s/465s feel and look much better still and they are all about the same age. So if only proper money was spent on a decent internal refit doing more than just seats and a lick of paint, and actually maintain them to a higher standard, Northern folk might stop feeling that our trains are second class when it comes to down south...
 

Bletchleyite

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I also agree with the general comments about the undiffused lighting on the 150s. Nothing says tarted up on the cheap

It was indeed tarted up on the cheap, but ironically they have spent money on something that didn't need doing (spraying the interiors blue and white) and then couldn't afford to do properly things that did need doing (seats and lighting).

LM's Class 150 refurb was far, far nicer, and all they did was give it a proper deep clean and swap the seat covers to green.
 

yorksrob

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May as well put hard shell plastic seats in em', wipe clean and cheap. Like some foreign buses i went on in Italy. Northern seem to forget that their trains run through some right sh~t holes, couple that with poor maintainance, whats the point in fabric. If its not looked after by the public and the company, dont even try making it nice.

As a regular traveller on Northern for some years, the purple stripe moquette that the last franchise holder put in, seems to have lasted pretty well, by and large. The biggest problem with it seems to be it coming loose on some 158's through wear.

Suggests the punters aren't any worse than elsewhere. Infact, I remember travelling in South East London in the 90's with scratched windows and black marker pen on the cushions. Even Northern's tatty units are quite nice in comparison to that.
 
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As a regular traveller on Northern for some years, the purple stripe moquette that the last franchise holder put in, seems to have lasted pretty well, by and large. The biggest problem with it seems to be it coming loose on some 158's through wear.

Suggests the punters aren't any worse than elsewhere. Infact, I remember travelling in South East London in the 90's with scratched windows and black marker pen on the cushions. Even Northern's tatty units are quite nice in comparison to that.
Yes indeed. I grew up and lived in SE London until 2005, the "Kent link" networker services being very familiar to me. The state those trains got into and were allowed to get into was terrible, extensive vandalism, I hope they've improved since and at least now all have CCTV I think, sorely needed...
 

yorksrob

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Yes indeed. I grew up and lived in SE London until 2005, the "Kent link" networker services being very familiar to me. The state those trains got into and were allowed to get into was terrible, extensive vandalism, I hope they've improved since and at least now all have CCTV I think, sorely needed...

The occasional Networkers I've ended up on from Ashford over the past few years, seem to have been reasonably well kept !
 
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The occasional Networkers I've ended up on from Ashford over the past few years, seem to have been reasonably well kept !

Yes in the last decade or so under the Southern franchise, certainly. Under Connex however, oh dear, I think whoever ran them went on to teach Arriva Rail North how to care for trains...
 

samuelmorris

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They were like that before refurb? Most of the 'hard seats' complaints I do sympathise with a little, but a Northern 150 is the only train I've ever travelled on where, despite it being almost empty, I physically didn't fit in the seats as my upper leg was too long, so I had to sit at an angle with my legs into the aisle. All they've presumably done is refurbish the same layout.
 

AMD

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They definitely weren't. Also, some other 150/2 units at Northern have come back with quite different layouts.
They were like this before the refurb.
I know, I work these trains and have seen this issue over a number of years.
And here's an unrefurbished unit over a year ago with the issue.
 

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AMD

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Also, some other 150/2 units at Northern have come back with quite different layouts.
Should have also added that the seat layouts are exactly the same as when the units went in for refurb. There is no spec in the contract to change the seats, other than repaint and recushion/recover the seats. The only Northern fleet getting new seats is the 158 fleet and that is on a like for like basis ie no layout change.
A layout change would require an engineering survey as it could effect the load distribution - an example is that a survey was done on the 333 fleet with a view to changing the seats on them, however the survey came back and it was deemed too expensive to do because of this load change.
 

TEW

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The Northern 150/2s with the Chapman seats fitted have always been terrible for legroom. There definitely have been changes to the layout though as they were necessary as part of the PRM mods. They are mainly around the new toilet and wheelchair spaces but I believe there have been changes elsewhere in the unit to provide priority seats with additional legroom.
 

Sprinter107

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It looks like that seat is by a door pocket. The original 150/2 layout didn't have an airline seat by a door pocket. By some door pockets it was a single inward facing seat, then by other door pockets it was a bay of seats. The way Northern have fitted that pair of seats is absolutely ridiculous.
 

Starmill

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They were like this before the refurb.
I know, I work these trains and have seen this issue over a number of years.
And here's an unrefurbished unit over a year ago with the issue.
Those seats are in a different section of the carriage. I've often sat in that section and while it is uncomfortable, my legs can fit into the pictured seating.
 

Starmill

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Should have also added that the seat layouts are exactly the same as when the units went in for refurb. There is no spec in the contract to change the seats, other than repaint and recushion/recover the seats. The only Northern fleet getting new seats is the 158 fleet and that is on a like for like basis ie no layout change.
There have definitely been some changes to the layout of the seating. For a start, there has been a need to move seats for the accessibility modifications. There are some bays of seats in some units which have been pushed closer together so that there's room only for one set of legs, effectively making 4 seats available only for 2.
 

Matt_pool

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Like most things they are designed by people who don't use the trains, probably some overpaid consultancy!

They might look good on paper, but in reality they aren't at all practical.

I regularly get a Northern train to Liverpool Lime Street and 9 times out of 10 it is a 156 which is sufficient for the number of people who are travelling who are mainly commuters.

But when you see a 150 appear in the distance you can hear a collective groan from everyone on the platform because some people know that they will end up standing.

Someone commented earlier on about the 3 seats across configuration. Most people would rather stand than squeeze themselves into the middle seat.

And as for the lighting - whose bright idea was that!?

A lot of the upholstered seats are already covered in food, drink and god know what else stains, and I've given up telling people to get their feet off the seats. Well, apart from a couple of weeks ago on a rather hot day when a middle-aged woman, who looked like she should have known better, had taken off her sandals and put her bare, sweaty feet up on the seat opposite her.

"I might have to sit there tomorrow!" I barked at her.
 

Bletchleyite

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Should have also added that the seat layouts are exactly the same as when the units went in for refurb. There is no spec in the contract to change the seats, other than repaint and recushion/recover the seats. The only Northern fleet getting new seats is the 158 fleet and that is on a like for like basis ie no layout change.
A layout change would require an engineering survey as it could effect the load distribution - an example is that a survey was done on the 333 fleet with a view to changing the seats on them, however the survey came back and it was deemed too expensive to do because of this load change.

With 150s there's also a load of equipment above the floor which limits the scope for changing the seating layout.
 

Craig2601

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Was on a northern 156 yesterday - wow the seat pitch was shockingly bad. I’m not even that tall a person and I could barely fit into the seat.
 

duffield

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...

A lot of the upholstered seats are already covered in food, drink and god know what else stains, and I've given up telling people to get their feet off the seats. Well, apart from a couple of weeks ago on a rather hot day when a middle-aged woman, who looked like she should have known better, had taken off her sandals and put her bare, sweaty feet up on the seat opposite her.

"I might have to sit there tomorrow!" I barked at her.

Dried up sweat from bare feet? 100 x better than someones' potentially dog-crap contaminated shoes!
 

181

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a Northern 150 is the only train I've ever travelled on where, despite it being almost empty, I physically didn't fit in the seats as my upper leg was too long, so I had to sit at an angle with my legs into the aisle.

It happened to me on a Welsh Pacer the other day (the Fishguard boat train, no less). I don't remember it happening on trains elsewhere (it's not uncommon on buses), but I've only occasionally used Northern 150s. I think there was room for my knees on the two Northern Pacers that I used earlier this year.
 

Bletchleyite

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Dried up sweat from bare feet? 100 x better than someones' potentially dog-crap contaminated shoes!

TBH on a hot day my backside is probably sweatier than my feet. Bare feet (or socked feet) on seats really aren't a concern to me.

If anyone is genuinely concerned about sweat on seats then public transport (of any kind) is not for them.
 

Bletchleyite

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Was on a northern 156 yesterday - wow the seat pitch was shockingly bad. I’m not even that tall a person and I could barely fit into the seat.

Is that one of the ones with the Richmond sprung seats, all of which have collapsed? They really are poor seats, and have very thick backs which eat legroom. The dated-looking but comfortable Chapmans are much better, though the pitch is still a little tight.

Try a 153 if you want tight...
 

delt1c

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Is that one of the ones with the Richmond sprung seats, all of which have collapsed? They really are poor seats, and have very thick backs which eat legroom. The dated-looking but comfortable Chapmans are much better, though the pitch is still a little tight.

Try a 153 if you want tight...
Do they have Yorkshire seats. lol
 

bramling

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Dried up sweat from bare feet? 100 x better than someones' potentially dog-crap contaminated shoes!

Like it or not, anyone using a train seat is potentially sitting on goodness knows what. The state of some evening trains is a sight to behold - potentially the full range of bodily substances (yes - yellow, brown, red and orange), plus half-eaten food and whatever else people bring with them. Quite often the only cleaning for all this will have been some powder down and then the seat wiped over.

Makes feet on seats seem not quite so bad in comparison.

If unhappy with this, unfortunately the only alternative is to go by car - which is of course what most of the population do...
 
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Craig2601

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Is that one of the ones with the Richmond sprung seats, all of which have collapsed? They really are poor seats, and have very thick backs which eat legroom. The dated-looking but comfortable Chapmans are much better, though the pitch is still a little tight.

Try a 153 if you want tight...
Yup was the Richmond sprung seats. It wasn’t just the pitch but, the actual seat was very uncomfortable too.
 

Rob F

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Like it or not, anyone using a train seat is potentially sitting on goodness knows what. The state of some evening trains is a sight to behold - potentially the full range of bodily substances (yes - yellow, brown, red and orange), plus half-eaten food and whatever else people bring with them. Quite often the only cleaning for all this will have been some powder down and then the seat wiped over.

Orange?
 
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