Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

Xenophon PCDGS · 17 Jul 2019

09ndodge said:
I happen to speak with a Vivarail member of staff the other day and he said another order announcement is imminent, so it's certainly likely.

This is something to look forward to and it will be interesting to see the number of units ordered, how many cars per unit and the traction mode to be used,

RailUK Forums

yorkie · 17 Jul 2019

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61653 HTAFC · 17 Jul 2019

gazthomas said:
This bodes well with the message that the Uk is going to get warmer. Surely they can engineer things that work in higher temperatures, they manage in Spain, India, etc.

Engines can overheat in the middle of winter, it's often nothing to do with the external environment.

Silverlinky · 17 Jul 2019

230003 still out of service with multiple genset faults
230004 was failed on Monday with door issues (Cab)
230005 has been experiencing AWS issues and failed earlier at Millbrook

Its only Wednesday.

samuelmorris · 17 Jul 2019

Silverlinky said:
230003 still out of service with multiple genset faults
230004 was failed on Monday with door issues (Cab)
230005 has been experiencing AWS issues and failed earlier at Millbrook

Its only Wednesday.

Are all three units out of service as a result of that, or have either of 04 or 05 been fixed?

Bletchleyite · 17 Jul 2019

BBC Three Counties reporting reduced service (one diagram cancelled) due to unit failure.

I would have expected this kind of thing to be settling down by now.

samuelmorris · 17 Jul 2019

Bletchleyite said:
BBC Three Counties reporting reduced service (one diagram cancelled) due to unit failure.

I would have expected this kind of thing to be settling down by now.

2-3 months for what is effectively a new design is quite optimistic in my view. I appreciate there are only 3 units, but it takes most fleets a couple of years to settle down after introduction. If 230s reach 6000 MTIN (the average of the 150s they replaced) before next April I'd be very impressed. 1500-2000 would seem more likely at this stage, which I think is about what they're achieving?

Silverlinky · 17 Jul 2019

samuelmorris said:
Are all three units out of service as a result of that, or have either of 04 or 05 been fixed?

5 had been behaving itself to a degree, 4 has its moments and 3 is just trouble!!

3 remains out of service, 4 was fixed and is currently in service with 5 requiring attention

HLE · 17 Jul 2019

Still think 001 should have been sent as the insurance spare, just for the few months

geoffk · 17 Jul 2019

HLE said:
Still think 001 should have been sent as the insurance spare, just for the few months

I'm planning to be in the Bedford area on Monday and hope to have a ride on a 230/take photographs.

Silverlinky · 17 Jul 2019

HLE said:
Still think 001 should have been sent as the insurance spare, just for the few months

Don't know whether they have had two units in service and one serviceable spare since they were introduced! That of course was the plan.

Clip · 17 Jul 2019

samuelmorris said:
2-3 months for what is effectively a new design is quite optimistic in my view. I appreciate there are only 3 units, but it takes most fleets a couple of years to settle down after introduction. If 230s reach 6000 MTIN (the average of the 150s they replaced) before next April I'd be very impressed. 1500-2000 would seem more likely at this stage, which I think is about what they're achieving?

Quite - as @DarloRich has always said - what they used to run were always prone to providing a poor service at times so these new units are no different but there are those who still seek to gain enjoyment out of them having mishaps so hey ho - nowt as queer as folk

Chris125 · 17 Jul 2019

Xenophon PCDGS said:
This is something to look forward to and it will be interesting to see the number of units ordered, how many cars per unit and the traction mode to be used,

If, as seems likely, it's for Island Line then don't hold your breath - the latest rumour is that the DfT have now pushed any decision beyond October 31st/Brexit...

HLE · 17 Jul 2019

Silverlinky said:
Don't know whether they have had two units in service and one serviceable spare since they were introduced! That of course was the plan.

It'll come off, just not yet. Having the 'spare' prototype on standby would have eased reliability.

As far as I know the mods requested years back by the union reps were carried out so can't see there being an issue with acceptance.

haggishunter · 20 Jul 2019

There is an article in today's Press & Journal newspaper regarding trialling a battery class 230 as a shuttle service between Wick and Thurso:

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/f...ery-powered-trains-call-for-thurso-wick-line/

He referred to plans to turn Thurso into a battery storage hub on the back of the two firms with bases in the town. One of them, Denchi Power provided the lithium/ion batteries that powered Britain’s first hydrogen/fuel cell train launched at the Rail Live 2019 exhibition in Warwickshire last month.Mr Roach said: “There is a commitment to phase out diesel trains but outlying rural routes like this aren’t going to get electrified so we need to come up with new solutions like this.

“We believe the Wick/Thurso is the ideal length of route and location in Scotland if you want to experiment with this sort of initiative.”

Backing came from Vivarail at FoFNL’s recent annual general meeting when marketing head Alice Gillman believed there is potential to use one its Class 230 battery trains on the inter-town shuttle service.

As a demo public carrying route for the battery version, this would be a reasonable fit length wise. Does the remoteness of the site become a factor?

Is there the means at Georgemas Junction such that for a train arriving from the South which reverses to Thurso before reversing back to Wick, passengers could change onto the 230 and go direct to Wick knocking 25 minutes off the journey time?

JonathanH · 20 Jul 2019

HLE said:
Still think 001 should have been sent as the insurance spare, just for the few months

Isn't the problem with 230001 that it has a variety of different interior set ups and wouldn't be consistent with the LNR units for staff training and operation.

DarloRich · 20 Jul 2019

Bletchleyite said:
BBC Three Counties reporting reduced service (one diagram cancelled) due to unit failure.

I would have expected this kind of thing to be settling down by now.

The bbm rail users group have excreted a brick over the poor service this week which I find a bit odd as whilst the service is poor it is nothing we haven't experienced before!

It has been bad this week but not all cancellations were caused by the trains. However they should have settled down by now (and I thought they were!) But problems keep occurring especially in the warm weather

Bletchleyite · 20 Jul 2019

Assuming that the sets are going to be under some kind of warranty, it would be quite interesting to know what, if anything, Vivarail are doing to work on resolving the issues.

danielnez1 · 20 Jul 2019

If the Caterpillar based gensets for the TfW 230s prove successful, I wonder if the LNR examples would be retrofitted?

krus_aragon · 20 Jul 2019

danielnez1 said:
If the Caterpillar based gensets for the TfW 230s prove successful, I wonder if the LNR examples would be retrofitted?

Are the TfW ones getting "Catted", or is that just something Vivarail have just started considering? I had the impression it was the latter.

Neen Sollars · 20 Jul 2019

krus_aragon said:
Are the TfW ones getting "Catted", or is that just something Vivarail have just started considering? I had the impression it was the latter.

My bet is on "Catted" - all modular units that can be slotted in, so its easy to switch engines. The current engines are not performing well, however it may be that things are just too cramped under the 230"s for good ventilation and performance. There appears to me to be delay in the introduction of the first TfW 230.

Bletchleyite · 20 Jul 2019

I'd figure a reasonable chance the LNR ones will either get "Catted" or even battery-powered. At present as you say they are not running reliably, and something will need to be done by Vivarail, even if it costs them a packet, in order that their reputation is not stained by poor reliability.

sw1ller · 20 Jul 2019

Why does it take a train 3 months - 2 years to get all the niggles out, but Volvo can pump out new truck after new truck without issue year after year? I’m sure this has been asked and expanded on countless times. But all I see is shoddy trains being commissioned in a rushed fashion and it’s the fare paying passengers that have to suffer.

hooverboy · 21 Jul 2019

sw1ller said:
Why does it take a train 3 months - 2 years to get all the niggles out, but Volvo can pump out new truck after new truck without issue year after year? I’m sure this has been asked and expanded on countless times. But all I see is shoddy trains being commissioned in a rushed fashion and it’s the fare paying passengers that have to suffer.

it's ultimately down to economies of scale, volume of production and revenue. All of which will allow for a bigger r+d team to develop and iron out the niggles on the test bed before it hits the production line.

funnly enough,as far as engines are concerned, with the advent of hybrid/BEMU,this should now become a lot easier for rail to work with present engine manufacturers like MTU/Cummins on gensets they use in semi's and large buses.(this will be higher volume so should be cheaper and more reliable)

with mechanincal and hydraulic transmission you have to take power/torque curves into account more.

Bletchleyite · 21 Jul 2019

sw1ller said:
Why does it take a train 3 months - 2 years to get all the niggles out, but Volvo can pump out new truck after new truck without issue year after year? I’m sure this has been asked and expanded on countless times. But all I see is shoddy trains being commissioned in a rushed fashion and it’s the fare paying passengers that have to suffer.

If it's anything like the IT industry the customer (TOCs in this case) will be at a fair bit of fault - in IT there is invariably pressure from customers to release things quicker, and the thing they ask us to cut (because it takes time including their own) is testing. We of course strongly advise against this, but in the end they're paying the bills.

edwin_m · 21 Jul 2019

sw1ller said:
Why does it take a train 3 months - 2 years to get all the niggles out, but Volvo can pump out new truck after new truck without issue year after year? I’m sure this has been asked and expanded on countless times. But all I see is shoddy trains being commissioned in a rushed fashion and it’s the fare paying passengers that have to suffer.

I suspect the first four or five trucks of a new design had a few bugs to iron out too. But those would have been driven to death on a test track and probably scrapped without ever earning any revenue. You can afford that if your production run will be a few thousand.

HLE · 21 Jul 2019

JonathanH said:
Isn't the problem with 230001 that it has a variety of different interior set ups and wouldn't be consistent with the LNR units for staff training and operation.

Interior layout of seats wouldn't pose an issue. The cab layout is the same as I recall, and so is the drivetrain.

Having one hot spare clearly isn't enough. It's a practical short term solution whilst the niggles with the other 3 are ironed out. As a last resort, WMT may as well send down a 153 to keep the service up and running. Doubtful but still possible

DarloRich · 21 Jul 2019

HLE said:
Interior layout of seats wouldn't pose an issue. The cab layout is the same as I recall, and so is the drivetrain.

Having one hot spare clearly isn't enough. It's a practical short term solution whilst the niggles with the other 3 are ironed out. As a last resort, WMT may as well send down a 153 to keep the service up and running. Doubtful but still possible

That assumes the drivers are still certified on 153's

HLE · 21 Jul 2019

DarloRich said:
That assumes the drivers are still certified on 153's

They will be, 6 months before it's crossed off

coppercapped · 21 Jul 2019

HLE said:
Interior layout of seats wouldn't pose an issue. The cab layout is the same as I recall, and so is the drivetrain.

Having one hot spare clearly isn't enough. It's a practical short term solution whilst the niggles with the other 3 are ironed out. As a last resort, WMT may as well send down a 153 to keep the service up and running. Doubtful but still possible

The drivetrain isn't the same. Vivarail has been clear that the prototype used the original dc motors from the LU days and the later trains use ac motors with all the variable frequency variable voltage inverters.

Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

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