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Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

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86247

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have to totally agree with that but and here goes I would rather have a 142. 150/1 and 150/2 are bloody awful at some time in the near future these will have to be replaced it would be better to get the order for new units in now as it could take years before their in traffic
 
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Andyh82

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I bet Northern drivers just don’t feel right driving in such a cab considering all they’ve known is Pacers and mostly gangwayed Sprinters!
 

js1000

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You notice the sheer gulf in what northern have brought in compared to what they have, as soon as you see a class 150 approaching the platform and feel your whole body sink with dismay. Swelteringly hot with every window open, much louder, much more jolting and swaying and no tables at all. These new sets are simply what rail passengers, who pay the amount they do, should expect from every service
My 195 service was cancelled this morning so had to to travel on a packed 156 this morning. Even though it's only been two weeks it already feels like another dimension whenever I step back on one of these after becoming accustomed to the 195s with big windows and air-con.

The downside of these new units is that they will become victims of their own success and Northern will have no option but to order more to phase out the 150s and 156s quicker than was probably previously thought - particularly if passenger numbers increase which I think they will.
 

Andyh82

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The downside of these new units is that they will become victims of their own success and Northern will have no option but to order more to phase out the 150s and 156s quicker than was probably previously thought
I think that is wishful thinking. There should be a follow on order being placed around now, but then they will point out that the 150s have just had refurbishments and new toilets, so will need a good 10 Years!
 

Bletchleyite

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I think that is wishful thinking. There should be a follow on order being placed around now, but then they will point out that the 150s have just had refurbishments and new toilets, so will need a good 10 Years!

TBH what is needed first is a growth build, ideally bi-mode, which I suspect means that the 15x will reach the age of the venerable 101s before they are finally seen off. And while they may be a little dated, very fine units 15x have been - rock-solid and reliable to the end.
 

js1000

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I think that is wishful thinking. There should be a follow on order being placed around now, but then they will point out that the 150s have just had refurbishments and new toilets, so will need a good 10 Years!
I think <10 years is reasonable once the new franchise is awarded. The biggest obstacle to getting new trains for the north was overruling the London-centric DfT and making it a long-term investment to attract new passengers and help reduce the Northern operating subsidy.

The wheels are now in motion to speak. Northern are no longer confined to basket case lines and now have modern trains that they can compete with rival TOCs on that they never had. The Wilmslow to Liverpool express route in the morning is one example where they can undercut Virgin in terms of fare and journey time. Most importantly, Northern can honestly say they have modern trains that people want to travel on. You ask Joe Public and they tell you they hate the Pacers, 150s, 156s etc. I know all my family and work colleagues hate them.
 

Bletchleyite

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The wheels are now in motion to speak. Northern are no longer confined to basket case lines and now have modern trains that they can compete with rival TOCs on that they never had. The Wilmslow to Liverpool express route in the morning is one example where they can undercut Virgin in terms of fare and journey time. Most importantly, Northern can honestly say they have modern trains that people want to travel on. You ask Joe Public and they tell you they hate the Pacers, 150s, 156s etc. I know all my family and work colleagues hate them.

This is totally the wrong reason for Northern to have new trains funded (and is a curious obsession of this forum). They are not there to compete; they are there to provide a quality service on their routes. Funding them to abstract revenue from VTWC does nothing but create a silly money go round.
 

Paul_10

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One thing I do find interesting about the 195s is that unlike moderrn TPE stock, there does not seem to be any dispatch equipment inside the cabs so dispatch is done by one of the doors. Was guards questioned what they prefer prior to this as I would think dispatch from the cab would be alot easier and preferable especially when services are busy and overcrowded.
 

samuelmorris

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Unfortunately I've found the train-front displays often don't show the correct destination anyway so it's safer to rely on the platform displays.
This does happen, but I've also seen the reverse be the case. It's also convenient at terminus stations with less than a minute to go - the service is removed from the displays even though there could be considerable time before it leaves. You can still tell where it's going by looking at the display on the rear cab. #

I also agree re: gangways - they do have a purpose, but they are wasteful in terms of aerodynamic efficiency (or lack thereof) and they make the driver's environment much worse, they can cause issues such as the windscreens on 385s, and for various health & safety / union requirements / technical reliability / dwell time reasons they aren't always used in practice anyway. Far better to have units an appropriate length to run the service required. Plenty of other TOCs survive with units working in multiple that don't have gangway connectors. It isn't something I've ever found myself wishing we had over here in Essex with our non-gangwayed 360s, 321s and 357s running 12-car services.

TBH what is needed first is a growth build, ideally bi-mode, which I suspect means that the 15x will reach the age of the venerable 101s before they are finally seen off. And while they may be a little dated, very fine units 15x have been - rock-solid and reliable to the end.
I'm not sure I'd call MTIN figures below 8000 'reliable' but Northern's units do seem to fare better than many other 150 fleets, so I'll give them that.
 

PomWombat

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When the 170s first arrived on the Harrogate line, the guards were banned from dispatching from the rear cab.

I overheard an interesting phone call where one guard was trying to persuade a controller to give permission to dispatch from the cab because, due to a previous cancellation, it was going to be overloaded at the next station.

I've not heard a similar story since, but the guards still dispatch 170s from the public doors.
 

InOban

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The public rightly expect that on board staff have access to the whole train, so either you have fixed formations which are too long for much of the day, or you have shorter trains with gangways. With emus, the cost penalty for running around with largely empty space is, with regenerative braking, much less than it is with DMUs.
 

Mathew S

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One thing I do find interesting about the 195s is that unlike moderrn TPE stock, there does not seem to be any dispatch equipment inside the cabs so dispatch is done by one of the doors. Was guards questioned what they prefer prior to this as I would think dispatch from the cab would be alot easier and preferable especially when services are busy and overcrowded.
I've heard a few Northern staff complaining about the reliability, or rather not, of the cab doors. I've also had a journey delayed by 10 minutes because they couldn't get a cab door to close properly. I've a suspicion that some staff are just avoiding them as much as possible and using the saloon doors.
 
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When the 170s first arrived on the Harrogate line, the guards were banned from dispatching from the rear cab.

I overheard an interesting phone call where one guard was trying to persuade a controller to give permission to dispatch from the cab because, due to a previous cancellation, it was going to be overloaded at the next station.

I've not heard a similar story since, but the guards still dispatch 170s from the public doors.

It is still the case that guards cannot operate the doors from the cabs, this is actually an instruction at a few TOCs I believe. It's to do with the gap between the cab door and the platform (there is no footplate so it is significant on even the most straight and level of platforms). There are exceptions and permission can be granted from control in certain circumstances.

I've heard a few Northern staff complaining about the reliability, or rather not, of the cab doors. I've also had a journey delayed by 10 minutes because they couldn't get a cab door to close properly. I've a suspicion that some staff are just avoiding them as much as possible and using the saloon doors.

195/331 cannot be dispatched from the cabs. There are no controls/door key switches that guards can use. Given half the chance, most would actually dispatch from the cabs out of preference. It's not worth the huffs and puffs you get from passengers for daring to ask them to move so you can get to the control panel.
 

fowler9

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I bet Northern drivers just don’t feel right driving in such a cab considering all they’ve known is Pacers and mostly gangwayed Sprinters!
Ha ha, true. A mate of mine who is now driving 195's loves them.

As a passenger there is just so much more space. They may only have a tiny number of seats more than a 142 in a 2 car configuration but there is so much more space. A 2+3 pacer may as well be 1+2 when full of adults at rush hour.
 

Harvey B

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Another think to note in comparison to the 2 car Class 195/0 units and the Class 142 Pacers is that some people feel the lack of gangways on the Class 142 unit make it difficult for train staff when these units run as a 4 car train as 2 x 2 units is that the very same problem will occur when running a train comprised of 2 x Class 195/0 2 car units.
semi-related question: When two 195s are connected together, are they staffed by two conductors or just one conductor for the whole train?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I bet Northern drivers just don’t feel right driving in such a cab considering all they’ve known is Pacers and mostly gangwayed Sprinters!

Some Northern drivers will have driven 175s before they went to ATW/TfW, and also 180s during the period they worked to Preston.
I guess some of them will have driven 185s on loan from TPE too.
Then there's the 323s, and now 319s, all without gangways.
 

Halifaxlad

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I bet Northern drivers just don’t feel right driving in such a cab considering all they’ve known is Pacers and mostly gangwayed Sprinters!

Some Northern drivers will have driven 175s before they went to ATW/TfW, and also 180s during the period they worked to Preston.
I guess some of them will have driven 185s on loan from TPE too.
Then there's the 323s, and now 319s, all without gangways.

How we manage to forget about the 333's on the Aire and Wharf Valley ?

Pretty much the staple of services are stock that is refered to on here as non-gangwayed.
 

Clip

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One thing I do find interesting about the 195s is that unlike moderrn TPE stock, there does not seem to be any dispatch equipment inside the cabs so dispatch is done by one of the doors. Was guards questioned what they prefer prior to this as I would think dispatch from the cab would be alot easier and preferable especially when services are busy and overcrowded.

They can disptach from both cabs and middle of the 319s so i dont see why this should be any different - it allows the guards to do some revenue duties too without having to race back to where ever just to dispatch
 
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Was watching people trying to board a 195 today at Oxford road and found it shocking they still haven’t worked out how to operate these doors yet. How come we have had power doors on trains since the 70’s yet in 2019 we can’t have a door system that works? Why? It’s just a ludicrous. As soon as they open they start closing again and close on people. It looks dangerous to me, how can that be allowed to happen? Just doesn’t look safe at all of it closes on someone who is elderly or disabled it could cause them to lose their footing and fall. Although I guess profit for DB is more important then any passengers (or cash cow as they see them) safety.
It’s just an absolute mess and a massive joke.
 

Bovverboy

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Was watching people trying to board a 195 today at Oxford road and found it shocking they still haven’t worked out how to operate these doors yet. How come we have had power doors on trains since the 70’s yet in 2019 we can’t have a door system that works? Why? It’s just a ludicrous. As soon as they open they start closing again and close on people. It looks dangerous to me, how can that be allowed to happen? Just doesn’t look safe at all of it closes on someone who is elderly or disabled it could cause them to lose their footing and fall. Although I guess profit for DB is more important then any passengers (or cash cow as they see them) safety.
It’s just an absolute mess and a massive joke.

Posted 15/7/19..

You get the feeling that, in all the miles of testing, no-one thought to check that the doors worked okay.
 
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EE Andy b1

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One thing I do find interesting about the 195s is that unlike moderrn TPE stock, there does not seem to be any dispatch equipment inside the cabs so dispatch is done by one of the doors. Was guards questioned what they prefer prior to this as I would think dispatch from the cab would be alot easier and preferable especially when services are busy and overcrowded.

What you have to remember is, is that Class 195s were set up for DOO (Driver only operation) but rightly after intervention from the unions, guards/conductors were retained on these trains to operate doors as well as there other duties.


semi-related question: When two 195s are connected together, are they staffed by two conductors or just one conductor for the whole train?

Normally one conductor and maybe an RPI (Revenue Protection Inspector) on the other set when required.

As above the TOC didn't want conductors at all for doors etc.
 

Chris125

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You wanna bet? The DfT Civil Servants were dead against mandating Pacer withdrawal from the Northern franchise. As I sated recently:

I wouldn't regard that as being 'dead against' pacer replacement, but civil servants naturally wanting clear direction in writing when asked to do something potentially avoidable and without a clear business case.
 

Greybeard33

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Re: the door issue - were the doors closing on people and not opening if obstacles were detected? presumably that's a bug, as when closing just to maintain interior temperature, if any hint of an obstruction is found, the doors should open again without even having to touch what the obstruction is. It's only when closing for departure that they should attempt to close on any obstruction.
Was watching people trying to board a 195 today at Oxford road and found it shocking they still haven’t worked out how to operate these doors yet. How come we have had power doors on trains since the 70’s yet in 2019 we can’t have a door system that works? Why? It’s just a ludicrous. As soon as they open they start closing again and close on people. It looks dangerous to me, how can that be allowed to happen? Just doesn’t look safe at all of it closes on someone who is elderly or disabled it could cause them to lose their footing and fall.
Well, when I had the doors close on me (back on the first day in service, at Oxford Road) it was immediately after they first opened, as i was disembarking, and they did not stop until they hit my shoulders, firmly but not crushingly. They did not trap me or cause bruising, but it was unpleasant and I suppose someone who was unsteady on their feet might, at worst, lose their balance and fall between the train and the platform.

Surprising that this is still happening - I had assumed it was a teething problem.
 

Chester1

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My 195 service was cancelled this morning so had to to travel on a packed 156 this morning. Even though it's only been two weeks it already feels like another dimension whenever I step back on one of these after becoming accustomed to the 195s with big windows and air-con.

The downside of these new units is that they will become victims of their own success and Northern will have no option but to order more to phase out the 150s and 156s quicker than was probably previously thought - particularly if passenger numbers increase which I think they will.

There is mo chance of the 156s being replaced with additional 195s because there are 50 x 158s going off lease from TfW and EMR in the next 3-4 years. The Roscos are going to want to make use of them and scrap cheaper units i.e. 156s before funding new builds that may be banned before they have paid back their build cost.
 

hwl

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There is mo chance of the 156s being replaced with additional 195s because there are 50 x 158s going off lease from TfW and EMR in the next 3-4 years. The Roscos are going to want to make use of them and scrap cheaper units i.e. 156s before funding new builds that may be banned before they have paid back their build cost.
Agreed. The next stage of sorting out Northern need to include adding capacity and relatively cheaply.
 

LOL The Irony

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There is mo chance of the 156s being replaced with additional 195s because there are 50 x 158s going off lease from TfW and EMR in the next 3-4 years. The Roscos are going to want to make use of them and scrap cheaper units i.e. 156s before funding new builds that may be banned before they have paid back their build cost.
There are more 156's as well coming from Anglia via EMR. Speaking of which...
 

Bletchleyite

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Agreed. The next stage of sorting out Northern need to include adding capacity and relatively cheaply.

Agreed. More rolling stock to allow South East like train lengths has to be the first priority, though it'd be nice if some of it was new (gangwayed 196s perhaps) Class 158s are perfectly decent when given a good quality refurb like the ATW or ScotRail Inverness one.
 
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