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Brush D0280 Falcon

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Czesziafan

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The Brush prototype "Falcon" tears through Taplow on the up main with the 09.15 Bristol TM - Paddington express. The two tone green loco makes a pleasing sight with its train of maroon Mark 1 stock.
Photo taken by my father. May 1966. Falcon D0282 Taplow May 1966.jpeg
 
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delt1c

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If only she had been preserved. However appreciate the sale contract with BR meant that wouldnt happen.
As an aside , wonder if a class 47 body shell could be used to recreate a sister
 

Czesziafan

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There were never any middle roads at Taplow station - simply up and down main and relief lines. The curve through the station was eased during track relaying in 1978. What is most poignant is that this scene has changed for ever with overhead wires and catenary posts, whilst the GWR 1884 footbridge near the country end has been demolished and replaced with a contemporary monstrosity. All traces of the old GWR have been erased.
 

gazthomas

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There were never any middle roads at Taplow station - simply up and down main and relief lines. The curve through the station was eased during track relaying in 1978. What is most poignant is that this scene has changed for ever with overhead wires and catenary posts, whilst the GWR 1884 footbridge near the country end has been demolished and replaced with a contemporary monstrosity. All traces of the old GWR have been erased.
Ah, I didn't realise that, it just seemed there was quite a wide gap between running lines that suggested there was. Thanks for the clarification
 

randyrippley

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If only she had been preserved. However appreciate the sale contract with BR meant that wouldnt happen.
As an aside , wonder if a class 47 body shell could be used to recreate a sister


Unlikely, its a stressed skin body, you'd have a hell of a job cross bracing and strengthening it - thats if the two Maybachs plus assorted gubbins could actually fit inside
 

Taunton

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If that's an Up service, which it seems to be, it's on the Relief lines. Wonder why. It'll be restricted to 75mph then.
 

Cowley

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Unlikely, its a stressed skin body, you'd have a hell of a job cross bracing and strengthening it - thats if the two Maybachs plus assorted gubbins could actually fit inside
Or even be procured..?
I’d love to have had a run behind this machine though.
I bet it was supremely competent.
 

pdeaves

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Ah, I didn't realise that, it just seemed there was quite a wide gap between running lines that suggested there was. Thanks for the clarification
I think what appears to be a gap between tracks is actually a platform surface (the photographer has taken a low vantage point). The white edge almost lines up with the track the train is on.
 

Cowley

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I think what appears to be a gap between tracks is actually a platform surface (the photographer has taken a low vantage point). The white edge almost lines up with the track the train is on.
Definitely
 

Taunton

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I think what appears to be a gap between tracks is actually a platform surface (the photographer has taken a low vantage point). The white edge almost lines up with the track the train is on.
The surface is the old style the GWR was fond of, a grey slate tile with a diamond pattern pressed into it. I presume that's long gone. The photographer is indeed standing close to the Up Main side of the central island platform.

I always thought that Falcon won the prototype loco competition between builders a bit unfairly. Brush devised a twin engine (not favoured) high speed engine (not favoured) loco, with electric transmission but with two small generators, which I don't think anyone else ever did. It's competitor Lion by BRCW had one large Sulzer (favoured) medium speed (favoured) engine, with one large generator. The competition result was that Brush were announced the winners, and got the huge order for the Class 47, but it was to be built to the now proven Lion design. BRCW went bankrupt.
 

Czesziafan

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Yes it is the up relief, isn't it - which it has only taken me 53 years to notice! Thanks for pointing that out. Looking at the WTT the 1A22 was due to pass Maidenhead at 11.07 1/2, closely followed by 1A24, the 08.20 from Swansea at 11.14 1/2. This train was on a Special timing and the WTT specifies: "worked by two 1750 h.p. Diesel-Electric Locomotives 100mph where specially authorised." This was the WR's experimental use of re-geared class 37's on certain crack services in the summer of 1966. I suspect that either the up Bristol was running late or the Swansea early so that the Bristol was switched to the up relief to clear the road for the Swansea train.

I had 2 runs behand Falcon but was too young to appreciate the significance of the motive power at the business end. I do remember she was fast, and also that she sounded very similar to a Western.
 

ac6000cw

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BRCW went bankrupt

I don't think they actually did - they realised that once the bulk of the re-equipment of BR (with diesel & electric traction) was complete, the chances of getting substantial orders out of BR was slim (not least because it had its own workshops to keep employed) so they decided to get out of the rolling stock manufacturing business as they perceived there was no future in it. They were anyway (for diesel locos) basically a mechanical designer/systems integrator/assembler - the high value diesel engine and electric traction equipment came from other suppliers, so I suspect making a decent profit at it was harder for them than, say, the likes of English Electric, who made most of it in-house.

Whether the designs/design rights to Lion were sold to BR or Brush in the end I can't remember.
 

Taunton

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I wonder if your father had positioned to photograph the double-head Class 37 express, but Falcon came along first …

I've written previously about us taking the Motorail in 1966 from Newton-le-Willows to Newton Abbot. Early evening on the return we were stopped for signals just short of the junction at Patchway, and waited. Then the double-headed Class 37 express hammered round from Stoke Gifford, and shot off towards the Severn Tunnel. We restarted, and an up dmu from Cardiff to Bristol which had been held the other side of the junction then came on as well. Clearly they were services not to be messed with. Although it was then found that one Western was just as capable.

Not too surprising as she was powered by the same Maybach diesel engines :smile:
Which is why it was allocated to the WR (although it initially ran on the ECML), and to a depot, Bristol Bath Road, which had both diesel-electric (so not Laira) and Maybach engine locos, and being an oddball was used on turns where the same limited set of crews who signed it did out-and-back turns.

Regarding BRCW, their designs seem to have lasted better than most contemporaries all round. Their policy of installing proprietary parts rather than make them in-house helped, as BR could approach the original manufacturer. The Class 33 seems to have the capability to go on for ever.
 
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Taunton

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You will notice in the photo the loco is just about to strike the GWR-style ATC ramp between the rails, for the signal ahead. This was a forerunner of AWS but had some additional features. The ramp was physically struck by the shoe under the loco, if it was energised you got the bell, if not you got the hooter and the brake application until cancelled. On 4-aspect lines, as here, it could actually give a hoot if red or single yellow (ramp dead), a double intermittent hoot if double yellow (ramp polarised south), and a bell if clear (ramp polarised north), something AWS can't do. This was developed by the GWR at the end of their time and of course applied initially to steam locos.
 

Czesziafan

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You will notice in the photo the loco is just about to strike the GWR-style ATC ramp between the rails, for the signal ahead. This was a forerunner of AWS but had some additional features. The ramp was physically struck by the shoe under the loco, if it was energised you got the bell, if not you got the hooter and the brake application until cancelled. On 4-aspect lines, as here, it could actually give a hoot if red or single yellow (ramp dead), a double intermittent hoot if double yellow (ramp polarised south), and a bell if clear (ramp polarised north), something AWS can't do. This was developed by the GWR at the end of their time and of course applied initially to steam locos.

I'd like to read about that Motorail journey: can you tell me which thread its on please?
 

Czesziafan

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And here is the double-headed up Swansea express blasting through on the up main. An unorthodox angle but it clearly shows the XP64 stock with a newly repainted mark 1 BSK at the rear. The figures on the platform are my mother and me. At the right in the distance is the goods shed containing preserved prairie tank 6106. This was an original Brunel designed wooden broad gauge structure built in 1838, and sadly demolished not long after this shot was taken. Taplow up Swansea train May 1966.jpeg
 

randyrippley

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The surface is the old style the GWR was fond of, a grey slate tile with a diamond pattern pressed into it. I presume that's long gone. The photographer is indeed standing close to the Up Main side of the central island platform.

I always thought that Falcon won the prototype loco competition between builders a bit unfairly. Brush devised a twin engine (not favoured) high speed engine (not favoured) loco, with electric transmission but with two small generators, which I don't think anyone else ever did. It's competitor Lion by BRCW had one large Sulzer (favoured) medium speed (favoured) engine, with one large generator. The competition result was that Brush were announced the winners, and got the huge order for the Class 47, but it was to be built to the now proven Lion design. BRCW went bankrupt.

Falcon didn't "win" anything.
What happened is BRCW realised that by the 1960's the market was shrinking, they weren't big enough to compete so decided to get out of the rail business. They renamed themselves and became a financial investment business, finally getting wound up in the 1990's. BRCW lost interest in Lion very early on and gave up on support
The class 47 order went to Brush by accident.
What happened is that Crewe works couldn't cope with the planned delivery schedule for the class 45 Peaks, so part of the order was transferred to Derby. It was then realised that Crompton-Parkinson couldn't hit the delivery schedule for one production line, let alone two so the later Derby builds used Brush electricals instead and became the class 46. Even then, production was too slow, BRCW had closed so Brush was asked to open a third production line for the last 20 class 46 (they had spare capacity as the class 30 build had finished). Brush naturally said "yes please"........but then someone at Brush had the idea of using the diesel and electricals already ordered but in a new stressed skin body based on Falcon (which itself took styling cues from the same study as resulted in the Hymek)
By the time Brush were asked to set up the third production line, they and EE were the only significant external companies still in business capable of building a large loco, and there was no way EE was going to build a Sulzer engined design, so BR had no choice but go to Brush for help.
As to why the class 47 became the "volume" type 4, BR were licenced to build it in-house and so kept the unions and workforce happy, while EE would have been unlikely to allow a DP2 derivative to be built outside its own workshops.
While on the topic, Kestrel used Maybachs because at the time both Bristol-Siddley and Brush were part of the Hawker-Siddley empire.
BR used so many Sulzers because Vickers at Barrow had been pushed by the government into creating a submarine engine production line in anticipation of need during the Korean war - a need that never happened. So the government pushed BR toward Vickers in an attempt to provide alternative work
 
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Cowley

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And here is the double-headed up Swansea express blasting through on the up main. An unorthodox angle but it clearly shows the XP64 stock with a newly repainted mark 1 BSK at the rear. The figures on the platform are my mother and me. At the right in the distance is the goods shed containing preserved prairie tank 6106. This was an original Brunel designed wooden broad gauge structure built in 1838, and sadly demolished not long after this shot was taken. View attachment 65986
Lovely photo. Thanks for posting it.
There’s a thread about the XP64 coaches here that you might find interesting:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/xp-64-coaches.159719/
 

randyrippley

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Yes it is the up relief, isn't it - which it has only taken me 53 years to notice! Thanks for pointing that out. Looking at the WTT the 1A22 was due to pass Maidenhead at 11.07 1/2, closely followed by 1A24, the 08.20 from Swansea at 11.14 1/2. This train was on a Special timing and the WTT specifies: "worked by two 1750 h.p. Diesel-Electric Locomotives 100mph where specially authorised." This was the WR's experimental use of re-geared class 37's on certain crack services in the summer of 1966. I suspect that either the up Bristol was running late or the Swansea early so that the Bristol was switched to the up relief to clear the road for the Swansea train.

I had 2 runs behand Falcon but was too young to appreciate the significance of the motive power at the business end. I do remember she was fast, and also that she sounded very similar to a Western.

It was these speed runs that sounded the death knell for the hydraulics
 

70014IronDuke

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.... This was the WR's experimental use of re-geared class 37's on certain crack services in the summer of 1966. ...

Yes, and the GC London extension was built to Berne Gauge and the LMS had got drawings of Lord Nelsons before they built the Royal Scots.

All myths. The Class 37s that were allocated to run in multiple on BR (W) at up to 100 mph in 1966 were not re-geared.
 

70014IronDuke

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..

I've written previously about us taking the Motorail in 1966 from Newton-le-Willows to Newton Abbot. Early evening on the return we were stopped for signals just short of the junction at Patchway, and waited. Then the double-headed Class 37 express hammered round from Stoke Gifford, and shot off towards the Severn Tunnel. We restarted, and an up dmu from Cardiff to Bristol which had been held the other side of the junction then came on as well. Clearly they were services not to be messed with. Although it was then found that one Western was just as capable. ... .

That's not how I remember it. Or rather, it depends on what you mean by "just as capable".

As I recall reports at the time, the single Cl 52 was about 6 minutes slower than with 2 x Cl 37s on 10 coaches Paddington - Newport. But the extra costs in terms of maintenance and fuel meant the savings in terms of schedule was not worth the use of the 2 x 37s.
 

Czesziafan

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Didn't realise the re-gearing story was a myth. I did hear that someone high up on the WR banned further use of the double headed 37s but don't know if that's true. Of course they did use Warships in pairs a couple of years later tut if my memory serves me right as often as not the rostered turns had a single Warship or Western instead of the double header. In 1969 loads on the West of England services were reduced by abandoning portions for Torbay and Cornwall in the same train, so that a single class 52 was perfectly able to cope.
 

70014IronDuke

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Didn't realise the re-gearing story was a myth. I did hear that someone high up on the WR banned further use of the double headed 37s but don't know if that's true. Of course they did use Warships in pairs a couple of years later tut if my memory serves me right as often as not the rostered turns had a single Warship or Western instead of the double header. In 1969 loads on the West of England services were reduced by abandoning portions for Torbay and Cornwall in the same train, so that a single class 52 was perfectly able to cope.

I don't know if anyone 'banned' the use of 2 x 37s. Indeed, I know we used 2 x 37s on the Royal Train some years later at times - but not for high-speed capabilities.

As I understand it, after 2-3 of months usage (from memory, these 2 x 37s services were started in the May 1966 timetable) it was decided that the schedule reductions achieved with 2x37s simply wasn't worth the extra maintenance and fuel costs. Plus, I suppose, the extra track wear, but I don't know if they really counted that into the equation in those days.

I think the use of 2 x 37s on high-speed Paddington-Swanseas stopped in July or August 1966.

I was told the Cl 37s were "sluggish" above 90 mph. I remember the quality control inspector at Landore using exactly that word - but I don't know if he was right or not. And this was a decade later.

In the case of the 2 x Warships (in 1970 or 71 on the Plymouth run?) it was a bit similar, but the difference was one of the two Warships often actually failed, which kind of upset the plan.
 

Taunton

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The Warships problem was hunting at speed (something the comparable B-B Hymeks were notably free of). When first introduced they did 100mph on the Bristolian, such a wild ride they were soon knocked down to 90mph maximum, and then 80mph. But when they were put in pairs on the fastest Riviera and Golden Hind they were allowed at 90mph again - for a while. Taunton crews said the worst stretch was the curving descent from Savernake down to Newbury, where they would set up a real oscillation, and there were other places as well, like through Totnes, where they would bucket around. The Westerns were masters of stability in comparison.

On the South Wales runs the one place the 2x37 scored was the climb out of the Severn Tunnel.

I'd like to read about that Motorail journey: can you tell me which thread its on please?
Put Motorail into the search with my username; it comes up at several places. One day I'll gather it all in one place.
 
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70014IronDuke

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The Warships problem was hunting at speed (something the comparable B-B Hymeks were notably free of). When first introduced they did 100mph on the Bristolian, such a wild ride they were soon knocked down to 90mph maximum, and then 80mph. But when they were put in pairs on the fastest Riviera and Golden Hind they were allowed at 90mph again - for a while. Taunton crews said the worst stretch was the curving descent from Savernake down to Newbury, where they would set up a real oscillation, and there were other places as well, like through Totnes, where they would bucket around. ... .

That has passed me by. I had no idea about this problem, or the 80 mph limit. Interesting. Was this all the D8xx, regardless of class and detail differences, like the first three? (Logical, if the suspension was the same on all, but one has to ask.)

Perhaps one reason they were diagrammed to the LSWR from 1964 - not much chance of doing more than 80 mph with all those stops.
 
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