Class 345 progress

hwl · 19 Jul 2019

kevin_roche said:
I didn't know that. Its not just a software upgrade then? Is there somewhere this is documented?

On "proper" full current spec ETCS units all the signalling interactions have to go via the ETCS computer including the Siemens Trainguard CBTC, AWS and TPWS which all have new plug in modules known as Specific Transmission Modules* (STM) rather than directly between the specific on train and off train equipment that happened historically as ETCS needs to know which system is being used at all times and with the ETCS computer directing what the TMS does. Hence 7 car has been set up as not having the ETCS computer in the middle of everything but 9 car has. This is also the first time Siemens has had a TrainguardMT STM installation layered on top of ETCS rather than directly as on previous installations.

* e.g this is the TPWS/AWS one: https://www.morssmitt.com/products/...tem-tpws-and-specific-transmission-module-stm

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kevin_roche · 19 Jul 2019

hwl said:
On "proper" full current spec ETCS units all the signalling interactions have to go via the ETCS computer including the Siemens Trainguard CBTC, AWS and TPWS which all have new plug in modules known as Specific Transmission Modules* (STM) rather than directly between the specific on train and off train equipment that happened historically as ETCS needs to know which system is being used at all times and with the ETCS computer directing what the TMS does. Hence 7 car has been set up as not having the ETCS computer in the middle of everything but 9 car has. This is also the first time Siemens has had a TrainguardMT STM installation layered on top of ETCS rather than directly as on previous installations.

Thank you for making that clear. I had not realised they had implemented the signalling in the 7 car units that way.

AlexNL · 19 Jul 2019

I'm guessing they did it like that so the 7-cars could be put into service quicker?

306024 · 19 Jul 2019

AlexNL said:
I'm guessing they did it like that so the 7-cars could be put into service quicker?

That’s correct. Getting a ‘simple’ AWS / TPWS software unit working allowed their introduction on the Shenfield service.

Peter Sarf · 20 Jul 2019

306024 said:
That’s correct. Getting a ‘simple’ AWS / TPWS software unit working allowed their introduction on the Shenfield service.

So, in a nut shell, the nine car 345s are a very big step on from the seven car 345s. Not just the addition of two more coaches but rather significant signalling/control differences. Makes me think full operation of 345s is a very long way off.

I presume all these big signalling/control differences have no relevance to the 710s ?.

samuelmorris · 20 Jul 2019

Peter Sarf said:
So, in a nut shell, the nine car 345s are a very big step on from the seven car 345s. Not just the addition of two more coaches but rather significant signalling/control differences. Makes me think full operation of 345s is a very long way off.

I presume all these big signalling/control differences have no relevance to the 710s ?.

Yes and no, the 710s presumably don't have integrated ETCS to worry about and wouldn't have any CBTC equipment fitted, but on the other hand, the 710's TMS is a totally different system (newer) to that on the 345s,which was one of the main reasons for them being so late.

reddragon · 20 Jul 2019

JonathanH said:
A full list was posted a number of days ago on a number of gen lists eg ukmodernemu etc. 345028 is also in service as a 7-car.

Can you post a link

JonathanH · 20 Jul 2019

reddragon said:
What is the location and status of the fleet now?

I have 345.003,5-17,22,29 in service as 7 cars, but the rest?

JonathanH said:
A full list was posted a number of days ago on a number of gen lists eg ukmodernemu etc. 345028 is also in service as a 7-car.

reddragon said:
Can you post a link

Source: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ukmodernemu/conversations/messages/46938

Not done one of these for a while

345001-017, 028 and 029 are 7 car units except 001 which is a 9 car with 340422+340622
345018-070 are 9 car units except 022, 028 and 029 which are 7 car’s

345001 Asfordby (old dalby test track)
345002 Derby Litchurch lane
345003 Old Oak Depot
345004 Derby Litchurch lane
345005 Ilford
345006 Ilford
345007 Ilford
345008 Ilford
345009 Ilford
345010 Ilford
345011 Ilford
345012 Old Oak Depot
345013 Old Oak Depot
345014 Ilford
345015 Ilford
345016 Ilford
345017 Ilford
345018 Asfordby (old dalby test track)
345019 Old Oak Depot
345020 Old Oak Depot
345021 Old Oak Depot
345022 Ilford
345023 Worksop
345024 Old Oak Depot
345025 Old Oak Depot
345026 Old Oak Depot
345027 Old Oak Depot
345028 Old Oak Depot
345029 Old Oak Depot
345030 Old Oak Depot
345031 Old Oak Depot
345032 Old Oak Depot
345033 Old Oak Depot
345034 Old Oak Depot
345035 Old Oak Depot
345036 Old Oak Depot
345037 Old Oak Depot
345038 Old Oak Depot
345039 Old Oak Depot
345040 Old Oak Depot
345041 Old Oak Depot
345042 Old Oak Depot
345043 Old Oak Depot
345044 Old Oak Depot
345045 Old Oak Depot
345046 Old Oak Depot
345047 Old Oak Depot
345048 Old Oak Depot
345049 Old Oak Depot
345050 Old Oak Depot
345051 Old Oak Depot
345052 Old Oak Depot
345053 Old Oak Depot
345054 Old Oak Depot
345055 Old Oak Depot
345056 Worksop
345057 Worksop
345058 Worksop
345059 Old Oak Depot
345060 Old Oak Depot
345061 Worksop
345062 Ashfordby (Old Dalby test track)
345063 Ashfordby (Old Dalby test track)
345064 Ashfordby (Old Dalby test track)
345065 Derby Litchurch lane
345066 Derby Litchurch lane

Any comments or corrections welcomed

In practice some of the units shown as being at Old Oak Depot may be outstabled at Maidenhead or elsewhere as required for testing / training.

Daily training / testing moves at Maidenhead:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...2/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=XR

There are occasional hauled moves between Ilford and Old Oak Depot for the units in service - e.g. 345003/5-17/22/8/9.

Bigbru · 20 Jul 2019

Peter Sarf said:
So, in a nut shell, the nine car 345s are a very big step on from the seven car 345s. Not just the addition of two more coaches but rather significant signalling/control differences. Makes me think full operation of 345s is a very long way off.

I presume all these big signalling/control differences have no relevance to the 710s ?.

9 cars are in use for driver training to Reading and tunnel testing, so can’t be too far can it?

reddragon · 20 Jul 2019

JonathanH said:
Source: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ukmodernemu/conversations/messages/46938

In practice some of the units shown as being at Old Oak Depot may be outstabled at Maidenhead or elsewhere as required for testing / training.

Daily training / testing moves at Maidenhead:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...2/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=XR

There are occasional hauled moves between Ilford and Old Oak Depot for the units in service - e.g. 345003/5-17/22/8/9.

Thank you for such a full update!

reddragon · 21 Jul 2019

On test - 345001-2,4,18 (4)

In service east - 345.005-11,14-17,22 (12) up 1
In service west - 345.003,12-3,28-9 (5) up 1

Stored West - 345.019-21,24-7,30-55,59-60 (35)
Store elsewhere - 345.023,56-8,61 (5)
New - 345.062-6 (5)
Not built - 345.067-70 (4)

33021 · 21 Jul 2019

28 is a 9 car

kevin_roche · 23 Jul 2019

Bigbru said:
9 cars are in use for driver training to Reading and tunnel testing, so can’t be too far can it?

An updated version of the train software is being tested this month on the central section according to Mark Wild's letter to the London Assembly. There is no mention of the version being used on the Western Branches,

Testing of the converged software (Siemens PD+8 and Bombardier YO.385) commenced within the offsite Crossrail Integration Facility (CIF) on 11 June as well as within the central section (Abbey Wood to Paddington) on 4 July.

I think that Bombardier version number should be a Zero not an 'Oh'.

The Jacobs Reports for period 2 says at the top of page 26:

It is anticipated, once the necessary safety approvals are secured and access to the full functionality contained in P_D+8 is permitted, that a marked improvement in dynamic testing output will be realised.

kevin_roche · 24 Jul 2019

Can anyone tell me what the consequences for the Cab Instruments on the 345 are of switching to ETCS?

I wonder if that means that the on the 7 carriage version with TPWS/AWS the instruments show speed in mph and in the 9 carriage version with ETCS it is kph. Does anyone here know?

Intellectual98 · 26 Jul 2019

kevin_roche said:
Can anyone tell me what the consequences for the Cab Instruments on the 345 are of switching to ETCS?

I wonder if that means that the on the 7 carriage version with TPWS/AWS the instruments show speed in mph and in the 9 carriage version with ETCS it is kph. Does anyone here know?

Speeds are all displayed on screen in MPH regardless. They are the standard units we use here, it's definately running in kph behind the scenes though and just converting on the display. All the data logging is in kph.

IIRC if the ETCS computer is switched off outside the COS the train is restricted to recovery mode, or Staff Accountable. Recovery mode is a simple push button control under a cover in the cab and is limited to 5?MPH. Staff Accountable is a manual driving mode restricted to ≈20mph. With ETCS isolated or turned off the train won't have any AWS or TPWS working either so it would be out of service limping to the depot.

The train can operate inside the COS on CBTC with the ETCS computer isolated.

This is why problems with ETCS computers is stopping them running on the west, they cannot run without it as it literally controls all the standard signalling systems, it can still test in the COS though.

Driver training runs are using 9 cars yes, but they still need a full system reset every 30 minutes which means they cannot be used in service.

supervc-10 · 26 Jul 2019

COS? Central Operating Section?

kevin_roche · 28 Jul 2019

supervc-10 said:
COS? Central Operating Section?

Yes, this is the track between the turnbacks at Westbourne Park through to Abbey Wood (and to the portal at Pudding Mill Lane).

iphone76 · 30 Jul 2019

I’m told that a FLU may have been in passenger service on the West yesterday and all this week. I believe this is after the evening peak. Unfortunately I’m not based on the west so cannot confirm this.

matt_world2004 · 30 Jul 2019

First 9 car train entered service at Hayes station at 19:48 yesterday. Don't know unit number.

kevin_roche · 30 Jul 2019

matt_world2004 said:
First 9 car train entered service at Hayes station at 19:48 yesterday. Don't know unit number.

hwl said:
On "proper" full current spec ETCS units all the signalling interactions have to go via the ETCS computer including the Siemens Trainguard CBTC, AWS and TPWS which all have new plug in modules known as Specific Transmission Modules* (STM) rather than directly between the specific on train and off train equipment that happened historically as ETCS needs to know which system is being used at all times and with the ETCS computer directing what the TMS does. Hence 7 car has been set up as not having the ETCS computer in the middle of everything but 9 car has. This is also the first time Siemens has had a TrainguardMT STM installation layered on top of ETCS rather than directly as on previous installations.
* e.g this is the TPWS/AWS one: https://www.morssmitt.com/products/...tem-tpws-and-specific-transmission-module-stm

I wonder if it running the "proper" full spec ETCS software with the STM.

matt_world2004 · 30 Jul 2019

345 037 is the 9 car running.

700007 · 30 Jul 2019

iphone76 said:
I’m told that a FLU may have been in passenger service on the West yesterday and all this week. I believe this is after the evening peak. Unfortunately I’m not based on the west so cannot confirm this.

Yes, will be doing so all week.

JonathanH · 30 Jul 2019

iphone76 said:
I’m told that a FLU may have been in passenger service on the West yesterday and all this week. I believe this is after the evening peak. Unfortunately I’m not based on the west so cannot confirm this.

matt_world2004 said:
First 9 car train entered service at Hayes station at 19:48 yesterday. Don't know unit number.

matt_world2004 said:
345 037 is the 9 car running.

700007 said:
Yes, will be doing so all week.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...9/1937-1953?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=XR

Empty 9-car from Maidenhead from platform 4 replaces 7-car which went to depot.

Doesn't appear in the open data for tonight but does again for the rest of the week.

TrainSailing · 30 Jul 2019

345029 is the FLU running this evening.

700007 · 30 Jul 2019

JonathanH said:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...9/1937-1953?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=XR

Empty 9-car from Maidenhead from platform 4 replaces 7-car which went to depot.

Doesn't appear in the open data for tonight but does again for the rest of the week.

It is actually from Old Oak Common but runs around most of the afternoon and then stables at Maidenhead during the evening peak.

JonathanH · 30 Jul 2019

TrainSailing said:
345029 is the FLU running this evening.

Have they already put the two coaches back in that have only just been removed or is it still a 7-car?

TrainSailing · 31 Jul 2019

JonathanH said:
Have they already put the two coaches back in that have only just been removed or is it still a 7-car?

Sorry ignore my previous post 345029 is in fact still 7 cars.

JonathanH · 1 Aug 2019

matt_world2004 said:
345 037 is the 9 car running.

Same tonight - presumably it has done all week?

700007 · 2 Aug 2019

The aim is to have 9-cars performing all duties between London Paddington and Hayes & Harlington within the next month or so, allowing for the 7-cars to transfer east to start sending a few more 315s off lease.

swt_passenger · 2 Aug 2019

What’s the reasoning behind only starting these 9 car runs in the evening? Is it something to do with limited platform availability for the longer train at Paddington?

Class 345 progress

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