• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Why are so many people ashamed of riding the bus or walking?

Status
Not open for further replies.

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
20,028
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
It only has one or two stops in Buckingham? I know it's not a big place but not everyone will live near a stop.

Of course adding more would make it slower.

Unfortunately this is made difficult by competition law, which takes priority over the stated desire of bus users for better integration.

All of these are factors. The fares aspect is not insurmountable - know of a number of instances where the LA has acted to achieve inter-availability.

The issue of stops vs speed is always a difficult one and it's why many bus companies have slimmed down and simplified their routes.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

duncombec

Member
Joined
3 Sep 2014
Messages
783
The fares aspect is not insurmountable - know of a number of instances where the LA has acted to achieve inter-availability.

I thought this was the case: that operators cannot exchange information directly, but they can in a regulated fashion through a third party.

It seems to be an increasing case that far from the bus operators themselves being the only ones to blame, some local authorities seem to actively seek to make life difficult for bus operators, or complain about what the operators are/are not doing, yet will not use what is statutorily available to them to make improvements.
 

RLBH

Member
Joined
17 May 2018
Messages
962
Travelling on a Citaro bus with a prestige German badge on the front usually does not impress random passers by!
When people were doing 'car talk', I used to point out that I got a chauffeur-driven 8-litre Mercedes (or whatever it was) every day. Now I commute by rail and have a 1,400hp EV with driver. It's all in the presentation.

Although yesterday, thanks to service disruption, I wound up getting the bus anyway. Cost was comparable to rail, I actually got home quicker because the express buses on the best route for me run every 5 minutes along a de facto urban motorway with no intermediate stops. Unfortunately, it was also hot, cramped, and uncomfortable. Other services aren't quite so good, because they stop twice at every set of traffic lights (once for passengers, a second time for the lights) and boarding passengers have to sort tickets.

A few years ago, I wouldn't have entertained the idea because the buses were 'right change only'. That was often the only thing the driver would say, not even telling you how much the right change actually was. Now they take contactless card payments, which is a huge help but not very well advertised.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,783
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
All of these are factors. The fares aspect is not insurmountable - know of a number of instances where the LA has acted to achieve inter-availability.

The problem here (as with other places just outside a large city e.g. Ormskirk) is that there isn't one local authority. Really, it would make more sense to bring Buckingham into Milton Keynes unitary area given that it is really a dormitory town for MK. However, there is no way the nominal (rather than administrative) County Town of Buckinghamshire is ever going to do that - the opposition would be immense. So absent the formation of a "Home Counties PTE" (which might not be an utterly terrible idea) this is unlikely to happen and it will remain a free for all between Arriva and Stagecoach.
 

NorthOxonian

Established Member
Associate Staff
Buses & Coaches
Joined
5 Jul 2018
Messages
1,486
Location
Oxford/Newcastle
The problem here (as with other places just outside a large city e.g. Ormskirk) is that there isn't one local authority. Really, it would make more sense to bring Buckingham into Milton Keynes unitary area given that it is really a dormitory town for MK. However, there is no way the nominal (rather than administrative) County Town of Buckinghamshire is ever going to do that - the opposition would be immense. So absent the formation of a "Home Counties PTE" (which might not be an utterly terrible idea) this is unlikely to happen and it will remain a free for all between Arriva and Stagecoach.

Unfortunately even if you do that, there's inevitably going to be problems elsewhere, whether it be Swindon/Shrivenham, Bournemouth/Lymington, Cambridge/Newmarket, or Northampton/Milton Keynes. All pairs of towns with close links, but where one side is in the Home Counties, and the other isn't. There are very few county borders which aren't at least fairly porous, which means deciding where to put the boundaries of any PTE become very challenging. The boundaries of current PTEs aren't ideal, as you say, but at least they're in mainly urban regions - trying to draw a line around the Home Counties is a Pyrrhic task.
 

Non Multi

Member
Joined
11 Dec 2017
Messages
1,117
The problem here (as with other places just outside a large city e.g. Ormskirk) is that there isn't one local authority. Really, it would make more sense to bring Buckingham into Milton Keynes unitary area given that it is really a dormitory town for MK. However, there is no way the nominal (rather than administrative) County Town of Buckinghamshire is ever going to do that - the opposition would be immense. So absent the formation of a "Home Counties PTE" (which might not be an utterly terrible idea) this is unlikely to happen and it will remain a free for all between Arriva and Stagecoach.
BTW Buckinghamshire's becoming a massive unitary. https://www.buckscc.gov.uk/services/council-and-democracy/our-plans/unitary/

From 1 April 2020, a single new Buckinghamshire Council will replace:
  • Aylesbury Vale District Council
  • Buckinghamshire County Council
  • Chiltern District Council
  • South Bucks District Council
  • Wycombe District Council
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,783
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
BTW Buckinghamshire's becoming a massive unitary. https://www.buckscc.gov.uk/services/council-and-democracy/our-plans/unitary/

From 1 April 2020, a single new Buckinghamshire Council will replace:
  • Aylesbury Vale District Council
  • Buckinghamshire County Council
  • Chiltern District Council
  • South Bucks District Council
  • Wycombe District Council

Yes, that'll be an interesting experiment! Aylesbury Vale will very much be on a fringe then, which could ease its inclusion into MK at some point as development increases in that direction. There's a lot of opposition to these fringe developments in MK because we don't get any infrastructure money from planning gain, yet it's MK's public services they will mostly be using.
 

Non Multi

Member
Joined
11 Dec 2017
Messages
1,117
The problem here (as with other places just outside a large city e.g. Ormskirk) is that there isn't one local authority. Really, it would make more sense to bring Buckingham into Milton Keynes unitary area given that it is really a dormitory town for MK. However, there is no way the nominal (rather than administrative) County Town of Buckinghamshire is ever going to do that - the opposition would be immense. So absent the formation of a "Home Counties PTE" (which might not be an utterly terrible idea) this is unlikely to happen and it will remain a free for all between Arriva and Stagecoach.
I think this is the closest we've got to a non-metropolitan, regional PTE at the moment (only for the counties south of the Thames, so not Bucks) https://transportforthesoutheast.org.uk/ it's currently seeking statutory body status.
 

radamfi

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2009
Messages
9,267
The problem here (as with other places just outside a large city e.g. Ormskirk) is that there isn't one local authority. Really, it would make more sense to bring Buckingham into Milton Keynes unitary area given that it is really a dormitory town for MK. However, there is no way the nominal (rather than administrative) County Town of Buckinghamshire is ever going to do that - the opposition would be immense. So absent the formation of a "Home Counties PTE" (which might not be an utterly terrible idea) this is unlikely to happen and it will remain a free for all between Arriva and Stagecoach.

Transport generally works better with bigger regions so small unitary authorities are not usually ideal.

Whilst there are always going to be boundaries, you can have overlapping areas where tickets from both regions are valid. For example, Kõln is in VRS and Düsseldorf is in VRR but there is an arrangement so that you can travel between the two on one ticket. There are also tickets that can be used in the whole NRW state.
 

Meerkat

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2018
Messages
7,521
I think this is the closest we've got to a non-metropolitan, regional PTE at the moment (only for the counties south of the Thames, so not Bucks) https://transportforthesoutheast.org.uk/ it's currently seeking statutory body status.

That looks very unwieldy - a huge and varied area. Better to have Kent, Brighton&Sussex&East Surrey, West Surrey&North Hampshire, Thames Valley, Solent, as separate areas more in line with their travel to work areas and service groups.
Cynically I tend to think it’s just another quango for civil servants, politicians and consultants to milk with expensive reports and flashy graphic presentations.
 

cactustwirly

Established Member
Joined
10 Apr 2013
Messages
7,453
Location
UK
That looks very unwieldy - a huge and varied area. Better to have Kent, Brighton&Sussex&East Surrey, West Surrey&North Hampshire, Thames Valley, Solent, as separate areas more in line with their travel to work areas and service groups.
Cynically I tend to think it’s just another quango for civil servants, politicians and consultants to milk with expensive reports and flashy graphic presentations.

What about cross border services such as the North Downs Line then?
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,783
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
That looks very unwieldy - a huge and varied area. Better to have Kent, Brighton&Sussex&East Surrey, West Surrey&North Hampshire, Thames Valley, Solent, as separate areas more in line with their travel to work areas and service groups.
Cynically I tend to think it’s just another quango for civil servants, politicians and consultants to milk with expensive reports and flashy graphic presentations.

I'd say the opposite - it seems a fairly manageable area with considerable synergies (apologies for the business-speak).

Essex should perhaps just become part of an extended TfL, then that leaves you with the (wider) Home Counties (i.e. probably including Northants) and the South West as areas that would fit well together into other similar bodies.

Non-metropolitan "PTEs" of that kind seem to work quite well in Switzerland, e.g. the Montreux Riviera.
 

Meerkat

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2018
Messages
7,521
Too many cooks.....that is a lot of local authorities who compete with each other, very diluted political accountability and I am not sure what the gain is.
Individual lines can be collaborations between authorities.
 

Man of Kent

Member
Joined
5 Jul 2018
Messages
597
Sounds like Stephen Norris is the dreadful creature in this example. He probity makes fun of the elderly and handicapped as well.
Cheers, Mike R
Actually, the quote is part of a longer explanation that Norris gave as to why people didn't want to use public transport. Research indicates that it was made in a House of Commons Committee in February 1995 rather than parliament itself, and if it is on Hansard, I can't find it. He himself was a known public transport user, a friend reported seeing him on the Circle Line about two weeks after the comment was made.
In the same month, this time in parliament, there was a debate on transport and pollution (in itself interesting to read to see what has and hasn't happened in nearly a quarter of a century) and part of Norris's response "There is a great law in politics. We are all against road building in general and in favour of the road scheme in our constituency." sums up prevailing attitudes very neatly.
 

geoffk

Established Member
Joined
4 Aug 2010
Messages
3,243
A work colleague of mine had a name for bus services which wandered around housing estates taking a long time to reach their destination. He called them Heineken routes, as they “reached those parts other buses don’t reach”. A typical Heineken route would run at off-peak times only, often between school contract runs, at a low frequency (hourly or less frequent), using a minibus and with a customer base consisting entirely of pass holders.

As local government funds have been cut, more and more non-commercial, i.e. tendered, routes have been rolled together in an effort to cut the total subsidy bill while maintaining some kind of service to as many communities as possible. As a result, once direct routes have been diverted through estates, often more than once, leading to greatly increased end-to-end journey times which are unattractive to potential new bus users.
 
Last edited:

Simon75

On Moderation
Joined
25 May 2016
Messages
890
The Potteries could have a PTE.
You have Stoke on Trent city council (Stoke on Trent)and Staffordshire county council (Newcastle/Kidsgrove/Biddulph) and maybe Leek
 

pitdiver

Member
Joined
22 Jan 2012
Messages
1,076
Location
Nottinghamshire
My wife and I have very opposing views regarding bus travel. I lived in London for many years so was used to getting a bus. I then moved out of London but then went to work there for LUL/TfL.
Consequently I had free travel. so never learnt to drive until I was in my mid thirties when I moved to Milton Keynes.

My wife who has lived in rural Bedfordshire since birth so learnt to drive as soon as she was old enough. would not be seen dead on a bus but is quite happy to utilise our priv rate train travel. I believe her dislike for buses is due to the fact that she has driven all this time and considers bus travel below her.

It also helps that I have a ENCTS card wher she hasn't.

BTW I only drive very occasionally now as the wife make s a terrible passenger (LOL)
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,078
My wife and I have very opposing views regarding bus travel. I lived in London for many years so was used to getting a bus. I then moved out of London but then went to work there for LUL/TfL.
Consequently I had free travel. so never learnt to drive until I was in my mid thirties when I moved to Milton Keynes.

My wife who has lived in rural Bedfordshire since birth so learnt to drive as soon as she was old enough. would not be seen dead on a bus but is quite happy to utilise our priv rate train travel. I believe her dislike for buses is due to the fact that she has driven all this time and considers bus travel below her.

It also helps that I have a ENCTS card wher she hasn't.

BTW I only drive very occasionally now as the wife make s a terrible passenger (LOL)
I often say (but not to her face) that my wife wouldn't pass a passenger test, let alone a driving test LOL
 

riceuten

Member
Joined
23 May 2018
Messages
522
It depends where you are. I work in London, and the council I work for has a grand total of *6* parking spaces (for 2000 employees on this site), all reserved for disabled staff or our electric car fleet. Yes, the Mayor, the Leader, the Chief Executive and the Executive Directors ALL come to work by public transport. We are expected to undertake our duties without recourse to private cars.

When I worked in rural Cambridgeshire, I had exactly the attitude outlined displayed. There were 30 staff in my department, 29 of whom had a driving licence and drove to work - I was regarded as something of a freak. When the council flogged off the car park, it was absolute pandemonium. I did feel sorry some people who lived 90 mins away by bus or train, to whom public transport was a challenge, but the main comments were along the lines of "Only losers take the bus", or memorably, a woman who said, "I earn £15k a year, I shouldn't have to be like the plebs and take public transport". This was even the case when taking the bus was strong - for instance to Cambridge, where a day's parking could easily cost upwards of £25 - and quicker using the misguided bus. These people - or "Clarksons", as I referred to them as - would honestly drive their cars to bed if they could.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
It depends where you are. I work in London, and the council I work for has a grand total of *6* parking spaces (for 2000 employees on this site), all reserved for disabled staff or our electric car fleet. Yes, the Mayor, the Leader, the Chief Executive and the Executive Directors ALL come to work by public transport. We are expected to undertake our duties without recourse to private cars.

When I worked in rural Cambridgeshire, I had exactly the attitude outlined displayed. There were 30 staff in my department, 29 of whom had a driving licence and drove to work - I was regarded as something of a freak. When the council flogged off the car park, it was absolute pandemonium. I did feel sorry some people who lived 90 mins away by bus or train, to whom public transport was a challenge, but the main comments were along the lines of "Only losers take the bus", or memorably, a woman who said, "I earn £15k a year, I shouldn't have to be like the plebs and take public transport". This was even the case when taking the bus was strong - for instance to Cambridge, where a day's parking could easily cost upwards of £25 - and quicker using the misguided bus. These people - or "Clarksons", as I referred to them as - would honestly drive their cars to bed if they could.

There are some people who routinely drive simply because they've never known anything else. And then when they try public transport, go in with preconceived ideas and foregone conclusions about the experience.

In Cambridge, there are definitely other parents who look at me a bit odd for talking my kids around town on the bus. Lo and behold, their kids will grow up to be car addicts too.

Growing up in Bolton in the early 90s, I was used to train and bus travel from an early age, as my Dad took me out regularly for as long as I can remember. But half the other kids in my class had never been on a train or bus, and the other half maybe only a small handful of times. This is in spite of having a relatively good network and affordable fares in Greater Manchester. Car travel was just the 'go to default' for their families.
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,078
How things change! At my secondary school in S.E. London, which I attended from 1959 to 1967 (no such things as Sixth Form Colleges then!), you were not allowed to be driven to school. or to drive yourself in (not that any of us had cars). The only exception was in an emergency, which for those of us that lived on a certain notoriously unreliable bus route was several times a year. Luckily, three of us, from different years, got on the bus at a certain stop and the father of one of us was a hospital consultant who never seemed to have to be at work early so the Jag came out, but we had to get out round the corner from school. At my school, if you were late you got to meet the headmaster in the hall and give your reasons. In my case, and it was usually when a group of at least six of us arrived simultaneously, all we had to say was '160', the number of our bus route - no other explanation was necessary!
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,884
Location
Nottingham
There are some people who routinely drive simply because they've never known anything else. And then when they try public transport, go in with preconceived ideas and foregone conclusions about the experience.

In Cambridge, there are definitely other parents who look at me a bit odd for talking my kids around town on the bus. Lo and behold, their kids will grow up to be car addicts too.

Growing up in Bolton in the early 90s, I was used to train and bus travel from an early age, as my Dad took me out regularly for as long as I can remember. But half the other kids in my class had never been on a train or bus, and the other half maybe only a small handful of times. This is in spite of having a relatively good network and affordable fares in Greater Manchester. Car travel was just the 'go to default' for their families.
I think this is changing to some extent. The generation who enjoyed mass car ownership and driving on relatively uncongested roads in the 60s and 70s are now beyond pension age and whether for ecological, cost or some other reason the younger generations are less likely to be wedded to the car. This is particularly so in London where you can get virtually anywhere at any time by public transport, but I guess much less so in rural areas where getting anywhere without a car is virtually impossible.
 

PaulMc7

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2019
Messages
4,029
I know plenty of people in Glasgow who avoid public transport like the plague but it's a lot to do with how claustrophobic buses can be and what types of people you get in public. I think cost also plays a part especially if you do short journeys but over a longer distance the buses especially in Glasgow with First mainly are great value. My network ticket is £69 for 4 weeks and all I need to do to get my money's worth is make 6 journeys a week and I easily get around 30/40 buses each week
 

Roilshead

Member
Joined
2 May 2017
Messages
175
Surely three answers here: 1) I'd rather be on my own in a car; 2) how do I know when the bus runs?; 3) it doesn't go where I need to go.

1) I'm a school teacher, in a rough-ish school, I cope. I wouldn't want to be on a bus carrying the pupils I teach. When I have to go up to London I will catch the bus into and out of town; "into" (in the day) is quite pleasant, "out" (at 22:30) can be anything but (I really don't want to know who has the tightest c**t in Leeds [PM me if you're up this way and its of interest]). So, yes, my fellow travelers - as referenced by Steve Norris - are a factor . . . and if I can avoid them I bloody well will.

2) Frequent changes of services. Where do I get the information? Information offices closing. Information no longer being available in printed form. Overlaps between companies and local authorities (and not always agreeing) in terms of what they produce. Increasingly a lack of maps, and increasing use of "journey planners" that require one to specify two points between which one is travelling (and in come cases don't actually wok unless you know the exact names of the bus stops in the town concerned).

3) Increasingly bis services are being reduced to trunks, even in urban areas. Live in a rural area? - forget it, just look at the coverage in NBC days and what we've got now. Even in urban areas its main arterial roads only that are covered - I couldn't do my commute by bus because I need to move around the northern suburbs, and there's no bus that does that.

So, to answer the posters question . . . err, because buses aren't attractive for the journey's they make??!! The real question is - and the question that is being answered on this forum - "what can we do to make public transport [sic] more attractive" . . . with a subtext being that we'd like to keep all the dick-heads off it.
 

Statto

Established Member
Joined
8 Feb 2011
Messages
3,213
Location
At home or at the pub
Also a lot of people now do shift work, start early shift one week then finish late shift the next week, even in big urban areas, buses might not run at all, so they'll use cars, whether they drive themselves or get a lft, where there is a bus, it'll likely take an indirect route so add that on to an 8 hour day, with bus journey that could be over an hour compared to 30 minutes in a car, people are going to use a car.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,783
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
There are some people who routinely drive simply because they've never known anything else. And then when they try public transport, go in with preconceived ideas and foregone conclusions about the experience.

And then they try the bus (or train, in some cases) and find those ideas are, by and large, correctly held.

Buses in Milton Keynes, in no particular order:
- Are infrequent except on a few core routes, and keep retrenching;
- Are incredibly slow. With the Redways cycling is usually at least the same speed if not quicker, and far more pleasant than on-road - and this is despite an infrastructure that allows for high speed running on most routes;
- Are often late, mainly due to the Council's imbecilic redesign of the railway station frontage a few years ago (amusingly, like a certain TOC's seating, this was another one of those consultations where a preferred option was identified and the Council went with their own idea which was never going to work);
- Are in poor condition inside and out, with torn seats and damaged panels abounding;
- Are noisy and ride roughly;
- Smell musty and damp in winter because bus companies won't pay to fit proper ventilation and double glazing as fitted to most European buses;
- Are cramped with poor seat width and legroom;
- Often contain other passengers who are, shall we say, a bit rough. This doesn't make me feel physically threatened as I am pretty massive, but to others it may well do.

About the only good thing about them is the staff and the price, if using a period season ticket.

On the other hand, if your first bus experience is the X5 to Oxford/Cambridge, or one of Transdev's routes around York, your impression may be rather different - but all buses should be like these premium offerings, and in fact almost none are.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
And then they try the bus (or train, in some cases) and find those ideas are, by and large, correctly held.

Buses in Milton Keynes, in no particular order:
- Are infrequent except on a few core routes, and keep retrenching;
- Are incredibly slow. With the Redways cycling is usually at least the same speed if not quicker, and far more pleasant than on-road - and this is despite an infrastructure that allows for high speed running on most routes;
- Are often late, mainly due to the Council's imbecilic redesign of the railway station frontage a few years ago (amusingly, like a certain TOC's seating, this was another one of those consultations where a preferred option was identified and the Council went with their own idea which was never going to work);
- Are in poor condition inside and out, with torn seats and damaged panels abounding;
- Are noisy and ride roughly;
- Smell musty and damp in winter because bus companies won't pay to fit proper ventilation and double glazing as fitted to most European buses;
- Are cramped with poor seat width and legroom;
- Often contain other passengers who are, shall we say, a bit rough. This doesn't make me feel physically threatened as I am pretty massive, but to others it may well do.

About the only good thing about them is the staff and the price, if using a period season ticket.

On the other hand, if your first bus experience is the X5 to Oxford/Cambridge, or one of Transdev's routes around York, your impression may be rather different - but all buses should be like these premium offerings, and in fact almost none are.

Yep, Milton Keynes buses are extensively dire and do themselves no favours whatsover. Even basics like drivers communicating in more than a simple system of grunting seems unattainable.

Stagecoach in Cambridge on the other hand do offer a better experience. Buses are generally always well-presented. Although they seem to suffer a bad reputation for being expensive (fair fors singles and daily tickets, not fair for weeklies) and unreliable (not really fair with the unpredictable traffic they have to deal with).
 

route101

Established Member
Joined
16 May 2010
Messages
10,612
I know plenty of people in Glasgow who avoid public transport like the plague but it's a lot to do with how claustrophobic buses can be and what types of people you get in public. I think cost also plays a part especially if you do short journeys but over a longer distance the buses especially in Glasgow with First mainly are great value. My network ticket is £69 for 4 weeks and all I need to do to get my money's worth is make 6 journeys a week and I easily get around 30/40 buses each week

A lot of people in Glasgow use the train where they can , some areas like Castlemilk thats not the case . Where i stay im one of the few that use the bus , can almost sense the judgement as the cars flash past .
 

PaulMc7

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2019
Messages
4,029
A lot of people in Glasgow use the train where they can , some areas like Castlemilk thats not the case . Where i stay im one of the few that use the bus , can almost sense the judgement as the cars flash past .

Yeah Dumbarton Road where I get the bus is the exact same with the car drivers. 12 1s buses an hour is too good to turn down though
 

Comstock

Member
Joined
19 Jun 2012
Messages
535
Those of us that do walk may have the last laugh, as we tend to be fitter and healthier.

Yes. To me, for anything up to 2 miles, nothing beats walking,- if you have the time. I will often deliberately get off a bus a stop early and walk.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top