Northern Alderley Edge services split at Piccadilly 20-27 July and 29 July - 03 August

Greybeard33 · 19 Jul 2019

During the week 20-27 July, the Alderley Edge to Wigan North Western/Southport services are being split at Piccadilly. The Alderley Edge services will reverse in the Piccadilly main shed, while the Wigan/Southport services will terminate/start in P13/P14 and reverse in the Mayfield Loop. See http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...24/0200-0159?stp=VS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=NT.

This is the week of the Acton Grange blockade, when VTWC Glasgow - Euston services are being diverted via Piccadilly, but I am puzzled what the relationship is. If anything, terminating Northern services in P13 will increase congestion.

Perhaps it is to reduce performance risk? If congestion is expected in the Castlefield corridor, the split will avoid exporting delays to the Stockport line. And the Wigan half of the service has plenty of recovery time in the Mayfield Loop.

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Bletchleyite · 19 Jul 2019

Surprised they're not being diverted to Vic.

Could it be for pathing reasons?

AMD · 19 Jul 2019

There's not space at Vic to cope with them at their booked times. And yes it's more to do with performance risk.

Bovverboy · 19 Jul 2019

Greybeard33 said:
During the week 20-27 July, the Alderley Edge to Wigan North Western/Southport services are being split at Piccadilly. The Alderley Edge services will reverse in the Piccadilly main shed, while the Wigan/Southport services will terminate/start in P13/P14 and reverse in the Mayfield Loop. See http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...24/0200-0159?stp=VS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=NT.

The Alderley Edge to Wigan/Southport services are affected 20/22-27/29-31 July, & 1-3 August. The Acton Grange blockade is effective 20 July to 4 August, but the Alderley Edge to Wigan/Southport service does not currently operate Sundays.

This is the week of the Acton Grange blockade, when VTWC Glasgow - Euston services are being diverted via Piccadilly, but I am puzzled what the relationship is. If anything, terminating Northern services in P13 will increase congestion.

I agree, it's hard to see what the intended benefit is. I thought perhaps it was to create a path for the Glasgow trains, but they effectively drop into the slots vacated by the TfW service, which is cancelled Airport/Picc-Chester.

Perhaps it is to reduce performance risk? If congestion is expected in the Castlefield corridor, the split will avoid exporting delays to the Stockport line. And the Wigan half of the service has plenty of recovery time in the Mayfield Loop.

There aren't going to be any more trains than usual through the Castlefield corridor.

AMD · 19 Jul 2019

Bovverboy said:
There aren't going to be any more trains than usual through the Castlefield corridor.

Yes, there will be the Euston to Glasgow services running through.

Bovverboy · 19 Jul 2019

Bovverboy said:
There aren't going to be any more trains than usual through the Castlefield corridor.

AMD said:
Yes, there will be the Euston to Glasgow services running through.

But they will be offset by the absence of the hourly TfW Chester service. See post #4, above.

Bovverboy · 19 Jul 2019

Whatever the reason for splitting the Alderley Edge to Wigan/Southport service at Piccadilly, it would have been an opportunity to run the Alderley Edge section with EMUs. Trouble is, Northern is just as short of EMUs at the moment as DMUs. In addition to the DMU under the wires on the morning extra from Alderley Edge, there has been limited DMU substitution elsewhere in recent days. I was surprised to find a 156 turning up on the 1628 Liverpool-Crewe yesterday, and there appears to be a 2-car diesel on Liverpool-Blackpool as we speak. (The duty commences with two Liverpool-Wigans, which I believe were also DMU-operated).

Greybeard33 · 19 Jul 2019

Bovverboy said:
There aren't going to be any more trains than usual through the Castlefield corridor.

But an 11-car 390 might be expected to occupy the corridor longer than a 2/3-car 175. It will probably straddle two block sections at once. And Piccadilly P13/14 will be even more crowded and chaotic than usual, with Manchester - London passengers alighting/boarding there instead of P6/7. The northbound and southbound Glasgow services are scheduled to be in Piccadilly at the same time, and both will need the full length of the platforms. The arriving passengers on P14 will be trying to fight their way out through the London-bound throng on P13, who will be rushing along the narrow island to find the right carriage. Suitcases everywhere! Expect very long dwell times.

Greybeard33 · 19 Jul 2019

Bovverboy said:
The Alderley Edge to Wigan/Southport services are affected 20/22-27/29-31 July, & 1-3 August. The Acton Grange blockade is effective 20 July to 4 August, but the Alderley Edge to Wigan/Southport service does not currently operate Sundays.

Thread title amended accordingly.

_toommm_ · 19 Jul 2019

Greybeard33 said:
But an 11-car 390 might be expected to occupy the corridor longer than a 2/3-car 175. It will probably straddle two block sections at once. And Piccadilly P13/14 will be even more crowded and chaotic than usual, with Manchester - London passengers alighting/boarding there instead of P6/7. The northbound and southbound Glasgow services are scheduled to be in Piccadilly at the same time, and both will need the full length of the platforms. The arriving passengers on P14 will be trying to fight their way out through the London-bound throng on P13, who will be rushing along the narrow island to find the right carriage. Suitcases everywhere! Expect very long dwell times.

The high-vis guys are going to have a great few days at work with the increased passenger flow and their newly repainted red lines!

AndrewE · 19 Jul 2019

Greybeard33 said:
But an 11-car 390 might be expected to occupy the corridor longer than a 2/3-car 175. It will probably straddle two block sections at once. And Piccadilly P13/14 will be even more crowded and chaotic than usual, with Manchester - London passengers alighting/boarding there instead of P6/7. The northbound and southbound Glasgow services are scheduled to be in Piccadilly at the same time, and both will need the full length of the platforms. The arriving passengers on P14 will be trying to fight their way out through the London-bound throng on P13, who will be rushing along the narrow island to find the right carriage. Suitcases everywhere! Expect very long dwell times.

Let's hope that no Glasgow - Manchester or Manchester - London passengers are even aware of these trains! The class 1s should not have a Manchester stop advertised (or even made if traincrews don't need to change) and passengers for London getting on a southbound class 9 would be seriously annoyed by the time taken for the run via the west midlands - if the trains were running.
Good old Virgin: London isn't the principal destination, so let's just knock it on the head (southbound) before it gets anywhere near Manchester. The class 9s are always really busy with west midlands to NW Engand and Scotland passengers (not just people on cheap tickets from London to Scotland.) I wonder why it's just their trains that have been knocked out of the timetable?

js1000 · 19 Jul 2019

Bovverboy said:
Whatever the reason for splitting the Alderley Edge to Wigan/Southport service at Piccadilly, it would have been an opportunity to run the Alderley Edge section with EMUs. Trouble is, Northern is just as short of EMUs at the moment as DMUs. In addition to the DMU under the wires on the morning extra from Alderley Edge, there has been limited DMU substitution elsewhere in recent days. I was surprised to find a 156 turning up on the 1628 Liverpool-Crewe yesterday, and there appears to be a 2-car diesel on Liverpool-Blackpool as we speak. (The duty commences with two Liverpool-Wigans, which I believe were also DMU-operated).

Joke. Not as if there is a shortage of EMUs nationally. Porterbrook have got 10+ 319s spare.

There maybe more congestion through Castlefield temporarily for the engineering works but unlikely given it is now holiday/silly season and train services are noticeably more quiet.

Greybeard33 · 19 Jul 2019

AndrewE said:
Let's hope that no Glasgow - Manchester or Manchester - London passengers are even aware of these trains! The class 1s should not have a Manchester stop advertised (or even made if traincrews don't need to change)

Between London and Manchester the Glasgow services are running in the paths of the (cancelled) xx40 Euston to Piccadilly and the xx55 Piccadilly to Euston (stopping at Stockport, Wilmslow and Crewe). So they are most certainly being advertised as Manchester - London services (though not Glasgow - Manchester).

Bovverboy · 19 Jul 2019

Greybeard33 said:
But an 11-car 390 might be expected to occupy the corridor longer than a 2/3-car 175.

Not necessarily, I suspect, since the Virgins are not going to be stopping at Oxford Road. The scheduled dwell times at Picc are going to be four minutes (northbound) and two minutes (southbound) - someone must have decided that those times are appropriate. The total times from arriving Picc to passing Deansgate, and passing Deansgate to departing Picc, are almost exactly the same as those allowed for TfW.

It will probably straddle two block sections at once.

Freights manage to get through, however many block sections they might occupy.

And Piccadilly P13/14 will be even more crowded and chaotic than usual, with Manchester - London passengers alighting/boarding there instead of P6/7.

Well, a proportion of the passengers won't be changing trains - how many, I wouldn't like to guess. I do hope that Virgin has got its sums right and managed to accurately work out how many people are going to be travelling.

The northbound and southbound Glasgow services are scheduled to be in Piccadilly at the same time, and both will need the full length of the platforms. The arriving passengers on P14 will be trying to fight their way out through the London-bound throng on P13, who will be rushing along the narrow island to find the right carriage. Suitcases everywhere! Expect very long dwell times.

Virgin do seem to be quite good at letting everyone know whereabouts in the train each individual carriage is going to be located. How good people are at assimilating that information, I don't know, but I have often been at Wigan North Western or Lancaster when a Virgin has arrived and departed, and been impressed at how slick things have been.

AndrewE · 19 Jul 2019

It's still a pretty poor service for people who use the class 9 services to Scotland, whether they join in the west midlands or at Crewe (meaning that they are basically just not running.)
This
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stat...WR018-ACTON CBYT-DISRUPTION MAP-140519-SS.pdf
doesn't even bother to mention the west midlands to Scotland trains northbound! What do people who expect a long-distance express train from Wolverhampton or Crewe to Edinburgh do? Get a Liverpool local from Birmingham as far as Crewe, then a bus to Wigan, then a change onto a Euston starter then change again at Preston? Or are they directing people to Nuneaton or Tamworth, then on to a Trent Valley service (with extra stops) so that they can get to Glasgow? What about passengers for Edinburgh?
If your journey doesn't start in London then you don't count.

Greybeard33 · 19 Jul 2019

AndrewE said:
What do people who expect a long-distance express train from Wolverhampton or Crewe to Edinburgh do? Get a Liverpool local from Birmingham as far as Crewe, then a bus to Wigan, then a change onto a Euston starter then change again at Preston? Or are they directing people to Nuneaton or Tamworth, then on to a Trent Valley service (with extra stops) so that they can get to Glasgow? What about passengers for Edinburgh?
If your journey doesn't start in London then you don't count.

Why not change to the Euston to Glasgow at Crewe? It will be stopping there.

As the saying goes, you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs. And when the WCML is closed, you can't expect a direct service from Wolverhampton to Edinburgh!

AndrewE · 19 Jul 2019

Greybeard33 said:
Why not change to the Euston to Glasgow at Crewe? It will be stopping there.

Pity that's not mentioned on the poster then (or any other advice for northbound passengers from the west midlands. Maybe they don't exist - as far as London and marketing people are concerned?) And it will be interesting to see how that goes, seeing as they withdrew the Crewe stops from the hourly Glasgow services because of the overcrowding...

As the saying goes, you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs. And when the WCML is closed, you can't expect a direct service from Wolverhampton to Edinburgh!

Is it? I note that an hourly London to Glasgow is still running though, where there is a perfectly good alternative Inter-City route! Given that the WCML service is first-stop Warrington it woukld have been better to have sent that ECML from Kings X and protected the (Birmingham) Wolves Crewe - Scotland service. Maybe they thought there was plenty of capacity available on the XC services from Brum to Edinburgh?

30907 · 19 Jul 2019

AndrewE said:
Pity that's not mentioned on the poster then (or any other advice for northbound passengers from the west midlands. Maybe they don't exist - as far as London and marketing people are concerned?) And it will be interesting to see how that goes, seeing as they withdrew the Crewe stops from the hourly Glasgow services because of the overcrowding...
Is it? I note that an hourly London to Glasgow is still running though, where there is a perfectly good alternative Inter-City route! Given that the WCML service is first-stop Warrington it woukld have been better to have sent that ECML from Kings X and protected the (Birmingham) Wolves Crewe - Scotland service. Maybe they thought there was plenty of capacity available on the XC services from Brum to Edinburgh?

Thats an excellent idea - not. Even if EC had capacity, you're sending all London-Lancashire and Cumbria traffic via Brum, on trains that are busier than London-Manchester, adding nearly another hour to the journey.
At least Wolverhampton passengers for GLC have the choice, according to journey planners, of an hourly service changing at Crewe or the RRB option - and the journey time is near enough the same.

Greybeard33 · 19 Jul 2019

AndrewE said:
Is it? I note that an hourly London to Glasgow is still running though, where there is a perfectly good alternative Inter-City route! Given that the WCML service is first-stop Warrington it woukld have been better to have sent that ECML from Kings X and protected the (Birmingham) Wolves Crewe - Scotland service. Maybe they thought there was plenty of capacity available on the XC services from Brum to Edinburgh?

The "perfectly good alternative route" via Manchester does not have any spare paths! The normal Euston to Glasgow service (xx30 from Euston) is effectively being cancelled south of Wigan. It is being linked at Manchester to one of the normal Euston to Piccadilly services (xx40 from Euston) in order to cobble together a through service. As noted upthread, the TfW N Wales to Manchester service (via Acton Grange) is being cut back to Chester, which clears a path through Manchester, and along the Chat Moss line, for the VTWC service.

Birmingham to Manchester services are provided by XC not VTWC, so such linking across Manchester is not possible.

Bovverboy · 19 Jul 2019

Greybeard33 said:
Birmingham to Manchester services are provided by XC not VTWC, so such linking across Manchester is not possible.

Manchester to Scotland services are provided by TPE, but that hasn't stopped Virgin diverting its London to Glasgow service via Manchester, with no pick up/set down restrictions that I can see.

AndrewE · 19 Jul 2019

Greybeard33 said:
The "perfectly good alternative route" via Manchester does not have any spare paths! The normal Euston to Glasgow service (xx30 from Euston) is effectively being cancelled south of Wigan. It is being linked at Manchester to one of the normal Euston to Piccadilly services (xx40 from Euston) in order to cobble together a through service. As noted upthread, the TfW N Wales to Manchester service is being cut back to Chester to clear a path through Manchester.

I meant that (in a joined-up railway) London to Glasgow can be done (at a push, if the WCML has a major blockage) via the ECML. Don't forget that most Anglo-Scottish trains don't call south of Warrington anyway and north of there the TPE trains could be strengthened.
I certainly don't consider consider WCML trains diverted via Manchester to be a "perfectly good alternative route" from London to Glasgow or Edinburgh!

Greybeard33 · 20 Jul 2019

Bovverboy said:
Manchester to Scotland services are provided by TPE, but that hasn't stopped Virgin diverting its London to Glasgow service via Manchester, with no pick up/set down restrictions that I can see.

The northbound Glasgow services are set down only at Piccadilly, and the southbounds are pick up only. You will not find them in journey planners for journeys between Manchester and points north.

Bovverboy · 20 Jul 2019

Greybeard33 said:
The northbound Glasgow services are set down only at Piccadilly, and the southbounds are pick up only. You will not find them in journey planners for journeys between Manchester and points north.

Indeed. I was going off RTT, where, as I read things, there were no restrictions. There are certainly restrictions shown now, so either RTT has been changed, or I misread it.
There don't appear to be any restrictions to/from Stockport and Wilmslow, and there wouldn't normally be a direct Glasgow service to/from either of those stations.

Greybeard33 · 20 Jul 2019

Bovverboy said:
There don't appear to be any restrictions to/from Stockport and Wilmslow, and there wouldn't normally be a direct Glasgow service to/from either of those stations.

There are no set down/pick up restrictions at Stockport, Wilmslow or Crewe, because those are the normal stops on the Euston - Piccadilly via Crewe service that is being extended to Glasgow. Consequently journey planners offer direct journeys between Glasgow and Stockport or Wilmslow during the blockade.

Bovverboy · 20 Jul 2019

Greybeard33 said:
There are no set down/pick up restrictions at Stockport, Wilmslow or Crewe, because those are the normal stops on the Euston - Piccadilly via Crewe service that is being extended to Glasgow. Consequently journey planners offer direct journeys between Glasgow and Stockport or Wilmslow during the blockade.

Not sure I follow your logic there, Greybeard33. Is Piccadilly not a 'normal' stop on the Euston-Piccadilly via Crewe service? Whatever the status of the Stockport and Wilmslow stops there is potential abstraction from Northern & TPE. Someone travelling from Stockport/Wilmslow to Wigan or north thereof is not going to choose to change trains if there is a direct one available. (Yes, I'm aware that there are already direct services from Wilmslow to Wigan, and Stockport to Preston, but they're hardly on a par with what Virgin are going to be offering). That presumes that Stockport and Wilmslow passengers are going be aware of the Virgin service's existence, of course.

The Planner · 20 Jul 2019

AndrewE said:
I meant that (in a joined-up railway) London to Glasgow can be done (at a push, if the WCML has a major blockage) via the ECML. Don't forget that most Anglo-Scottish trains don't call south of Warrington anyway and north of there the TPE trains could be strengthened.
I certainly don't consider consider WCML trains diverted via Manchester to be a "perfectly good alternative route" from London to Glasgow or Edinburgh!

Virgin could have quite easily said "stuff it, we won't even attempt to run a through service to Scotland", people would have soon kicked off then.

The Planner · 20 Jul 2019

Greybeard33 said:
As noted upthread, the TfW N Wales to Manchester service is being cut back to Chester to clear a path through Manchester.

It was actually because you couldn't get them to work via Altrincham, but we have done this one to death on a different thread.

Bovverboy · 20 Jul 2019

I appreciate that this has probably been covered in another thread, but is there an impediment to diverting WCML services via Liverpool? From my calculation, the time penalty would be no greater than diverting via Manchester.

Bovverboy · 20 Jul 2019

Bovverboy said:
Not sure I follow your logic there, Greybeard33. Is Piccadilly not a 'normal' stop on the Euston-Piccadilly via Crewe service? Whatever the status of the Stockport and Wilmslow stops there is potential abstraction from Northern & TPE. Someone travelling from Stockport/Wilmslow to Wigan or north thereof is not going to choose to change trains if there is a direct one available. (Yes, I'm aware that there are already direct services from Wilmslow to Wigan, and Stockport to Preston, but they're hardly on a par with what Virgin are going to be offering). That presumes that Stockport and Wilmslow passengers are going be aware of the Virgin service's existence, of course.

(BIB) Actually, while the Acton Grange blockade is on, there won't be! (Apart from the Virgin).

The Planner · 20 Jul 2019

Bovverboy said:
I appreciate that this has probably been covered in another thread, but is there an impediment to diverting WCML services via Liverpool? From my calculation, the time penalty would be no greater than diverting via Manchester.

Not sure, though diverting via Liverpool is finding another path from Crewe to Golborne/Wigan whereas via Manchester is just the bit via Chat Moss. Extending the existing Liverpool would cause overcrowding I suspect as you can't spread the existing load as you can on the Manchesters.

Northern Alderley Edge services split at Piccadilly 20-27 July and 29 July - 03 August

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