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Petition to bring back the buffet on GWR

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RLBH

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The point still stands how can both be right?
Each is right, measured by their own metric. Each is wrong, measured by their own metric. They have different priorities and different challenges, and it's not something that can be objectively determined. DfT, in specifying what GWR was to achieve with the IETs, put a lot of priority on maximum seating capacity, because that was what they saw as the main requirement for the route. Transport Scotland, in specifying the Scotrail intercity services, put a lot of priority on the on-board experience, because they believed that was important for the development of the service.
 
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takno

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Perhaps some sort of automated vending arrangement as well as the trolley could have been a compromise?
It's certainly an effective way of using up space whilst not providing any of the benefits of a buffet. A spectacular lose-lose solution
 

Master29

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Transport Scotland required that ScotRail have a buffet. The Department for Transport required that GWR do not have a buffet. The two authorities have very different views on what a railway needs to be, and have specified services accordingly.
Oh. We keep being told that The Daft and GWR didn`t provide because a """"survey""" showed that customers (haha) didn`t want one..
 

Master29

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It's certainly an effective way of using up space whilst not providing any of the benefits of a buffet. A spectacular lose-lose solution
Yes. I`m sure a vending machine will take up more space than two kitchens:rolleyes:
 

Bletchleyite

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It's certainly an effective way of using up space whilst not providing any of the benefits of a buffet. A spectacular lose-lose solution

And would no doubt be broken half the time.

Personally, as a cheap solution, I'd sacrifice about 8 seats in one of the saloons (4 of which would be two of the pointlessly awful pairs jammed up against the wall with no armrest anyway), add a modular lightweight partition attached to the seat tracks (wouldn't bother with a door, the smells leaking out might sell stuff anyway :) ), and put in a trolley dock designed to take the trolley they already have. Then call it a buffet (the LNER buffet is little more than that anyway).

A grand or so per unit plus "railway inflation", maybe?
 

Bletchleyite

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No. I meant the space re seating.

How modular is that space? I note the window cut-outs are still present, so I guess putting seats there (having panelled and carpeted the interior) is a possibility?

To me it would make sense for 5-cars to be buffet-only and 9-cars to have restaurant service (with only one kitchen), and to diagram 9-car sets on the small number of trains which have restaurant service. It's more efficient use of space.
 

ashkeba

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To me it would make sense for 5-cars to be buffet-only and 9-cars to have restaurant service (with only one kitchen), and to diagram 9-car sets on the small number of trains which have restaurant service. It's more efficient use of space.
To me too, but I've long given up hope of any sense in the Western Region! From catering to surfboards to bicycles to ticket prices, the GW service has long seemed designed to free up capacity by encouraging any travellers who can reasonably use any other route to do so.
 

broadgage

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How modular is that space? I note the window cut-outs are still present, so I guess putting seats there (having panelled and carpeted the interior) is a possibility?

To me it would make sense for 5-cars to be buffet-only and 9-cars to have restaurant service (with only one kitchen), and to diagram 9-car sets on the small number of trains which have restaurant service. It's more efficient use of space.

On the face of it I agree, and years ago IIRC that is exactly what was proposed.
More recently though it has been discovered that the 9 car sets don't fit the depot at Penzance.
A more sensible design would have been 5 car sets with a relatively small buffet and kitchen, not intended for Pullman services, and 9 car sets with a larger buffet and kitchen suitable for buffet counter service AND Pullman dining, as was done on the HSTs.
 

HamworthyGoods

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On the face of it I agree, and years ago IIRC that is exactly what was proposed.
More recently though it has been discovered that the 9 car sets don't fit the depot at Penzance.
A more sensible design would have been 5 car sets with a relatively small buffet and kitchen, not intended for Pullman services, and 9 car sets with a larger buffet and kitchen suitable for buffet counter service AND Pullman dining, as was done on the HSTs.

Doesn’t get you out the fact the without considerable expense you can’t stable 9 cars on Long Rock. And most of the restaurant circuits either start or finish their diagrams at Long Rock do you’d need 5 car Pullman sets too.
 

irish_rail

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Doesn’t get you out the fact the without considerable expense you can’t stable 9 cars on Long Rock. And most of the restaurant circuits either start or finish their diagrams at Long Rock do you’d need 5 car Pullman sets too.
Personally I think spend the money now on extending long rock at ponsondane, and then it's done and the 9 cars can be used as needed down here. Smallish outlay now but would be useful for many years to come....
 

broadgage

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Personally I think spend the money now on extending long rock at ponsondane, and then it's done and the 9 cars can be used as needed down here. Smallish outlay now but would be useful for many years to come....

I agree, passenger numbers are increasing and full length trains to Penzance will be increasingly demanded. And whilst I don't think much of IETs, we are almost certainly stuck with them for many years yet, so better start planning for 9 and 10 car IETs, hopefully upgraded to proper intercity specification.
And even if the IETS ARE replaced with something more suitable, the ever growing passenger numbers suggest that a similar overall train length will be needed.
 

Ianno87

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I agree, passenger numbers are increasing and full length trains to Penzance will be increasingly demanded. And whilst I don't think much of IETs, we are almost certainly stuck with them for many years yet, so better start planning for 9 and 10 car IETs, hopefully upgraded to proper intercity specification.
And even if the IETS ARE replaced with something more suitable, the ever growing passenger numbers suggest that a similar overall train length will be needed.

But its only a minority of Penzance trains that are restricted by Long Rock. 10 cars during the day are common..Things like extra 'local' Cornish trains will help ease demand in Cornwall without expensive infrastructure at Long Rock.
 

HamworthyGoods

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Personally I think spend the money now on extending long rock at ponsondane, and then it's done and the 9 cars can be used as needed down here. Smallish outlay now but would be useful for many years to come....

Spend which money though? It’s far from a small outlay as you can’t extend the current sidings due to their location. Looking at several millions to reopen the old Ponsondanne sidings.

I think it’s been mentioned before there was money for either 5 car IETs and Cornwall half-hourly or 9 car IETs in Cornwall, the former was chosen and that’s what we are getting in Dec 19 with a lot of the ‘locals’ being short HSTs.

Lots of jumping to conclusions here about capacity without giving the Cornish 1/2 hourly timetable a chance to even get off the ground. There will still be long London trains to Cornwall fitted around the demand but those that start/finish at Long Rock will be 5 cars or multiples of (10s can easily be dealt with by splitting 9s can’t).
 
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irish_rail

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Spend which money though? It’s far from a small outlay as you can’t extend the current sidings due to their location. Looking at several millions to reopen the old Ponsondanne sidings.

I think it’s been mentioned before there was money for either 5 car IETs and Cornwall half-hourly or 9 car IETs in Cornwall, the former was chosen and that’s what we are getting in Dec 19 with a lot of the ‘locals’ being short HSTs.

Lots of jumping to conclusions here about capacity without giving the Cornish 1/2 hourly timetable a chance to even get off the ground. There will still be long London trains to Cornwall fitted around the demand but those that start/finish at Long Rock will be 5 cars or multiples of (10s can easily be dealt with by splitting 9s can’t).
How about EU money , they have spent tonnes on Cornwall over the past years ?? Oh wait..............
 

Busaholic

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Spend which money though? It’s far from a small outlay as you can’t extend the current sidings due to their location. Looking at several millions to reopen the old Ponsondanne sidings.

I think it’s been mentioned before there was money for either 5 car IETs and Cornwall half-hourly or 9 car IETs in Cornwall, the former was chosen and that’s what we are getting in Dec 19 with a lot of the ‘locals’ being short HSTs.

Lots of jumping to conclusions here about capacity without giving the Cornish 1/2 hourly timetable a chance to even get off the ground. There will still be long London trains to Cornwall fitted around the demand but those that start/finish at Long Rock will be 5 cars or multiples of (10s can easily be dealt with by splitting 9s can’t).
Morrison's in Penzance (Long Rock) only stays open because they want to screw money out of the rail industry in the pretence they have a 'valuable'site: in reality, no commercial use would be made of it should Morrison's go. Even the 'promise' of extending their self-service checkouts beyond the 4 (usually 2 working properly) has not been met. I'm usually one of their younger customers, at the age of 71. It used to be part of the depot anyway, and NR or whoever should play hardball. Morrison's must be leaking money bigtime.
 

Bletchleyite

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Morrison's in Penzance (Long Rock) only stays open because they want to screw money out of the rail industry in the pretence they have a 'valuable'site: in reality, no commercial use would be made of it should Morrison's go. Even the 'promise' of extending their self-service checkouts beyond the 4 (usually 2 working properly) has not been met. I'm usually one of their younger customers, at the age of 71. It used to be part of the depot anyway, and NR or whoever should play hardball. Morrison's must be leaking money bigtime.

Surely Morrisons stays open because they make a profit flogging food to people? This is rather a conspiracy theory.

If they just wanted to land-sit, they could close the store and still do that.

Anyway, if it's just overnight stabling and tanking couldn't arrangements be made to do that at the station?
 

broadgage

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But its only a minority of Penzance trains that are restricted by Long Rock. 10 cars during the day are common..Things like extra 'local' Cornish trains will help ease demand in Cornwall without expensive infrastructure at Long Rock.

My reference to 10 cars was intended to mean a single train of 10 vehicles as might be formed by adding one vehicle to an existing 9 car set. I am well aware that couples pairs of 5 car units visit now.
 

Deafdoggie

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Morrison's in Penzance (Long Rock) only stays open because they want to screw money out of the rail industry in the pretence they have a 'valuable'site: in reality, no commercial use would be made of it should Morrison's go. Even the 'promise' of extending their self-service checkouts beyond the 4 (usually 2 working properly) has not been met. I'm usually one of their younger customers, at the age of 71. It used to be part of the depot anyway, and NR or whoever should play hardball. Morrison's must be leaking money bigtime.

Retail in general, and Supermarkets in particular have very tight small profit margins. Times are hard in retail, if a shop isn’t making money, it shuts. They are a business, they aren’t trading for anyone’s benefit but their own. If it doesn’t pay, they will shut. Anyone who thinks they are trading at a loss simply to annoy another business is in cloud cuckoo land
 

Bletchleyite

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Retail in general, and Supermarkets in particular have very tight small profit margins. Times are hard in retail, if a shop isn’t making money, it shuts. They are a business, they aren’t trading for anyone’s benefit but their own. If it doesn’t pay, they will shut. Anyone who thinks they are trading at a loss simply to annoy another business is in cloud cuckoo land

Large businesses don't "do things to annoy other businesses" anyway. They are only interested in profit. They may open a store to compete with one of another business, but they won't do so vindictively - they basically act without emotion. It's not like a small sole-trader business where most decisions are made by one person and there is likely to be emotion involved in at least some of them.

Morrisons is a family firm so I suppose could be susceptible to this kind of thing, but is unlikely to be so. It'll be open because it makes a profit, even if a small one.
 

RLBH

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Large businesses don't "do things to annoy other businesses" anyway. They are only interested in profit. They may open a store to compete with one of another business, but they won't do so vindictively - they basically act without emotion. It's not like a small sole-trader business where most decisions are made by one person and there is likely to be emotion involved in at least some of them.

Morrisons is a family firm so I suppose could be susceptible to this kind of thing, but is unlikely to be so. It'll be open because it makes a profit, even if a small one.
It's conceivable that it's just barely profitable, and that they'd not shed any tears if Network Rail made a decent offer for the land. But Morrisons's idea of a decent offer may be higher than Network Rail's idea of a decent offer.
 

Deafdoggie

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It's conceivable that it's just barely profitable, and that they'd not shed any tears if Network Rail made a decent offer for the land. But Morrisons's idea of a decent offer may be higher than Network Rail's idea of a decent offer.

Anyone buying anything always has a different idea on price than anyone selling the same thing.
 

pt_mad

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So are they doing Pullman dining in any 2 X 5 car coupled sets at present? Is the kitchen in a 5 car smaller than in a 9?
 

Nippy

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AFAIK you need to be in the right 5 car set to get the Pullman bit though.
 

JN114

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The kitchens are smaller on 5 car units. Hence the reason there are 3 more first class seats.

Are you sure about that? Sounds like a causality trap...

But I’ll clarify my answer - the kitchens have identical sets of equipment; any of the 4 types can offer Pullman dining or other full cooked meals. The size of the kitchen area has little to no bearing on service provision.
 

Mintona

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Are you sure about that? Sounds like a causality trap...

But I’ll clarify my answer - the kitchens have identical sets of equipment; any of the 4 types can offer Pullman dining or other full cooked meals. The size of the kitchen area has little to no bearing on service provision.

Technically on a nine-car they have an extra toaster :lol:
 
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