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Railway worker fatally struck by train at Purley (06/11)

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Dr Hoo

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In the context of this thread are ‘engineering/track’ staff subject to the same variations in book-on times as train crew?
(I realise that fatigue is an issue across many grades but just trying to relate to this tragic incident in particular.)
 
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alxndr

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In the context of this thread are ‘engineering/track’ staff subject to the same variations in book-on times as train crew?
(I realise that fatigue is an issue across many grades but just trying to relate to this tragic incident in particular.)

Depends on who writes the roster. Ours is consistent, one week you'll do earlies, the next lates, and they all begin at the same time. Other people at our depot have more random start times.

With contractors it's going to be even more varied as they have to fit around whoever they're contracting for.
 

Surreytraveller

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Depends on who writes the roster. Ours is consistent, one week you'll do earlies, the next lates, and they all begin at the same time. Other people at our depot have more random start times.

With contractors it's going to be even more varied as they have to fit around whoever they're contracting for.
Presumably with contractors they'll be working at different sites with varying travelling times too, which will add to the variance
 

edwin_m

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Mobile phone signals aren't failsafe. You get dead areas, batteries go flat, people drop and lose their phones, the software crashes etc etc. That's why we still use Victorian methods - modern technology hasn't yet devised a way of replacing it
I agree that they can't be located to the nearest metre but there must be a way of knowing they'd entered completely the wrong access point?
It could only be used as a cross-check on other systems. So for example the staff member could phone in to say they were accessing the track at X or placing protection at Y, and the COSS or whoever else was co-ordinating could check that the location matched.

“Where work with noisy plant is still planned to take place on open lines and therefore requiring touch lookouts, there must now be additional senior line manager approval for each specific work task.”
I can't help thinking that a lot of the problem stems from not having enough people, and putting extra workload on those people is just going to risk more corners being cut.
 

Tomnick

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Not a lot they can do, the rosters are agreed by the local reps and if they are 'legal' they can't just refuse to accept them. Believe it or not they were an improvement on the roster originally proposed at the start of the new timetable. Ironically I'm back in at 4am today after yesterday's 6am start...

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Sounds back to front to me! Our local reps put the base rosters together themselves and then pass them to the management to agree - a much more constructive and effective approach.
 

Monty

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Sounds back to front to me! Our local reps put the base rosters together themselves and then pass them to the management to agree - a much more constructive and effective approach.

Oh our reps definitely have input and try to change things around where they can. But when there is work that has to be covered and its 'legal' only so much you can do.
 

theironroad

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What are the unions doing about those unacceptable variations in start times?

In 1982 there was a national strike over the introduction of 'flexible rostering' which unfortunately the unions lost when the strike collapsed.

Flexible rostering essentially allows a driver to be booked to start work X minutes (X being agreed times to read notices etc and walk to train) before the train arrives that he or she is due to relieve or commence.

Apart form train drivers and guards/conductors , im not aware of what other jobs use flexible rostering.

Bus / coach drivers???
Pilots /cabin crew???

On the railway, most other shift work jobs like signaller, MOMs, control room staff all do 24/7 shifts but on a regular pattern of start times and fixed length shifts.
 

Highlandspring

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On the railway, most other shift work jobs like signaller, MOMs, control room staff all do 24/7 shifts but on a regular pattern of start times and fixed length shifts.
Relief staff don’t necessarily follow a fixed pattern and can still be messed about. In the last fortnight I’ve done a mix of early, back and night shifts each in the same week.
 

edwin_m

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Staff who work in possessions will presumably have their hours adjusted job by job to suit the possession times.
 

Bibendum

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In 1982 there was a national strike over the introduction of 'flexible rostering' which unfortunately the unions lost when the strike collapsed.

Flexible rostering essentially allows a driver to be booked to start work X minutes (X being agreed times to read notices etc and walk to train) before the train arrives that he or she is due to relieve or commence.

Apart form train drivers and guards/conductors , im not aware of what other jobs use flexible rostering.

Bus / coach drivers???
Pilots /cabin crew???

On the railway, most other shift work jobs like signaller, MOMs, control room staff all do 24/7 shifts but on a regular pattern of start times and fixed length shifts.

Most transport related crew work a form of flexible rostering, though it may be called something different. All are highly regulated though. The most extreme is probably aircrew where they not only deal with different times but different time zones too. As a example of that, a crew left Vancouver yesterday at 1520 for Manchester with the crew having booked on about 1 hr 30 before that. The flight was around 8 hours 40 so landed at midnight Vancouver time which was 0800 BST. The crew will layover in Manchester then fly back tomorrow at around 10am UK time arriving in Vancouver around 11am local time. How they deal with ghe disruption to their circadian rhythms I have no idea but they all seemed alert and cheerful.
 

TheEdge

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Oh our reps definitely have input and try to change things around where they can. But when there is work that has to be covered and its 'legal' only so much you can do.

It's all a matter of "to the letter of the law, not spirit of the law".
 

theironroad

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Relief staff don’t necessarily follow a fixed pattern and can still be messed about. In the last fortnight I’ve done a mix of early, back and night shifts each in the same week.

That's quite a mix , but I guess relief staff are a small percentage of the overall grade. I'm assuming if you three earlies in a row they all start at the same time, like 0600 etc

Staff who work in possessions will presumably have their hours adjusted job by job to suit the possession times.

Not sure, I think if it's a mon to thursday nightly possession the work will start at the same time each night as they'll move in after a specific train has passed the site and then blocks, protection etc arranged. Not sure if they all book on at 2100 etc each night for briefing .

Most transport related crew work a form of flexible rostering, though it may be called something different. All are highly regulated though. The most extreme is probably aircrew where they not only deal with different times but different time zones too. As a example of that, a crew left Vancouver yesterday at 1520 for Manchester with the crew having booked on about 1 hr 30 before that. The flight was around 8 hours 40 so landed at midnight Vancouver time which was 0800 BST. The crew will layover in Manchester then fly back tomorrow at around 10am UK time arriving in Vancouver around 11am local time. How they deal with ghe disruption to their circadian rhythms I have no idea but they all seemed alert and cheerful.

Sounds like would play havoc with body clock, guess spending some time in different cities around the world is the payback.
 

edwin_m

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Not sure, I think if it's a mon to thursday nightly possession the work will start at the same time each night as they'll move in after a specific train has passed the site and then blocks, protection etc arranged. Not sure if they all book on at 2100 etc each night for briefing .
On many routes the engineering access hours vary through the year as well as through the week, and more significantly track workers won't always work on the same route so they will be subject to different access times depending on where they are working that night. Extreme examples are the North Wales where last I looked a section of the main line was single line working for some weeks then it changed to a different section; and the Devon/Cornwall branches where they appear to do most of their maintenance during a blockade for a week out of tourist season.
 

theironroad

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On many routes the engineering access hours vary through the year as well as through the week, and more significantly track workers won't always work on the same route so they will be subject to different access times depending on where they are working that night. Extreme examples are the North Wales where last I looked a section of the main line was single line working for some weeks then it changed to a different section; and the Devon/Cornwall branches where they appear to do most of their maintenance during a blockade for a week out of tourist season.

Doesn't sound stable, added to boot as we've seen in this thread many are on precarious contracts with little advance knowledge of how many hours they'll be working in a given week.
 

steverailer

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Working for a contractor to NWR our shifts vary week to week an example of the last few weeks

Week 1
Saturday night shift at Crewe at 2100 travelled as only an hour away
Sunday off
Monday 1400 Staff meeting in office 1 hour away
Tuesday-Thursday 2100 Wembley stay in hotel travel home after shift end on Friday morning

Week 2
Saturday Manchester 2300 travelled
Sunday off
Monday Birmingham 2100 travelled
Tuesday off
Wednesday-Friday 0900 Liverpool stayed out

Week 3
Saturday and Sunday 2100 Bedford stayed out home Monday morning
Monday off
Tuesday-Thursday 2100 Bedford stayed out home Friday morning

Week 4
Saturday Wembley 2200 hotel for rest before and after shift
Sunday off
Monday and Tuesday 2100 Birmingham travelled
Wednesday off
Thursday 2100 Birmingham travelled

As you can see we're all over the place with the shifts, the travelled ones are within the 14 hour door to door rule as well (mostly under 12) These aren't that bad as have had some weeks where its 6 x night shifts home for 0600 on a Friday and back out around 1600 on a Saturday to start the next 6 shifts. The worst part I find is having the odd day off between nights shifts as you're body clock is all over the place.
 

Deafdoggie

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In 1982 there was a national strike over the introduction of 'flexible rostering' which unfortunately the unions lost when the strike collapsed.

Flexible rostering essentially allows a driver to be booked to start work X minutes (X being agreed times to read notices etc and walk to train) before the train arrives that he or she is due to relieve or commence.

Apart form train drivers and guards/conductors , im not aware of what other jobs use flexible rostering.

Bus / coach drivers???
Pilots /cabin crew???

On the railway, most other shift work jobs like signaller, MOMs, control room staff all do 24/7 shifts but on a regular pattern of start times and fixed length shifts.

Bus drivers generally book on 15 minutes before bus due off on first turn. 5 Minutes for notices/etc, 10 minutes for walk-round check. If not getting bus from depot, then just 5 minutes is added before bus due. Second half of a split turn gets no extra time, due back on at bus due time. This is paid time, and part of the working day, but not counted in driving hours. Bus drivers can work 16 hours a day, but can only drive for 10!
 

jagardner1984

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Its that sort of thing that will I think come under increasing scrutiny. Fatigue is such a factor in accidents, most of the public wouldn't dream of driving 10 hours in their simple to operate, cruise controlled car up a motorway in a day, so on what planet is it a good idea for a bus driver to undertake 10 hours of complex stop/start city driving.

It would be interesting to note how the road haulage and transport industries lobbied while the Working Time Directive was being put together. The tachograph exemptions for light goods vehicles, rules like this, the "flexibility" of allowable start times would suggest substantially.

So many times at my work lately I have thought, if there was to be an incident later today, I could not in good conscience stand in a court and say I was unaware that person was fatigued. It is writ large on so many faces of our colleagues and friends.
 

w1bbl3

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I agree that they can't be located to the nearest metre but there must be a way of knowing they'd entered completely the wrong access point?

The highways agency use marker posts every 100m on the trunk road network to plan and confirm maintenance works (and recoveries / incident response), I'm surprised that NR don't operate a similar system of confirming ingress/egress at each access point back to control and confirming arrival at the worksite back to control.

In 1982 there was a national strike over the introduction of 'flexible rostering' which unfortunately the unions lost when the strike collapsed.

Flexible rostering essentially allows a driver to be booked to start work X minutes (X being agreed times to read notices etc and walk to train) before the train arrives that he or she is due to relieve or commence.

Apart form train drivers and guards/conductors , im not aware of what other jobs use flexible rostering.

Fire / Rescue is mostly flexible rostering to cover the workload variation demands and retained workers. Many NHS trusts have moved front line nursing staff over to flexible rosters. The road haulage industry is generally flexible rosters.

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with flexible rostering so long as the employer has a fatigue management system that works and is actually used, to be honest for many fixed rosters employers should looking to manage fatigue as well. An 8 hour fixed shift when the worker has travelled 4 hours to get there and will do a further four hours to go home doesn't result in a rested worker for example.
 

pjnathanail

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Its that sort of thing that will I think come under increasing scrutiny. Fatigue is such a factor in accidents, most of the public wouldn't dream of driving 10 hours in their simple to operate, cruise controlled car up a motorway in a day, so on what planet is it a good idea for a bus driver to undertake 10 hours of complex stop/start city driving.

It would be interesting to note how the road haulage and transport industries lobbied while the Working Time Directive was being put together. The tachograph exemptions for light goods vehicles, rules like this, the "flexibility" of allowable start times would suggest substantially.

So many times at my work lately I have thought, if there was to be an incident later today, I could not in good conscience stand in a court and say I was unaware that person was fatigued. It is writ large on so many faces of our colleagues and friends.

An added challenge here is that many staff, especially those in the bus industry, who tend to be lower paid than the rail industry, want as many hours as they can get. This is often from a place of necessity so that they generate sufficient income to live, and also because work availability can vary greatly so many drivers cram in overtime during the summer months when it's there due to holidays, special events etc. and then use that as a financial buffer for the quieter winter.

What this means, however, is that drivers work very long shifts and very long weeks, and the ability of drivers working under GB Domestic driving hours (so most city bus drivers) to opt out of the Working Time Directive contributes to this.

But what is the solution? Until we value our front line transport industry professionals more, and pay them more, which economics currently precludes, many drivers will continue to ask for as much work as they can lay their hands on. It is a brave allocator / operations manager who leaves work uncovered / brings in agency drivers when there is a driver who is willing, able and legal to work the shift but in all probability is fatigued despite being legal.
 

Surreytraveller

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That's quite a mix , but I guess relief staff are a small percentage of the overall grade. I'm assuming if you three earlies in a row they all start at the same time, like 0600 etc
There seems to be a move these days for a week of relief to be included within everyone's roster cycle, rather than one person being a relief. So its not only train drivers
 

Highlandspring

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The highways agency use marker posts every 100m on the trunk road network to plan and confirm maintenance works (and recoveries / incident response), I'm surprised that NR don't operate a similar system of confirming ingress/egress at each access point back to control and confirming arrival at the worksite back to control.
Controllers have enough to do without becoming glorified babysitters.
 

Surreytraveller

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Controllers have enough to do without becoming glorified babysitters.
Indeed. It is expected that anyone trackside knows where they are and what they're doing. You've also got the COSS (Controller of Site Safety) if anyone's unsure. Each person trackside is generally only doing one task, unlike signallers and controllers who have their own jobs to do, and are generally dealing with separate issues geographically apart, and have their own safety critical responsibilities without taking on the responsibilities of others
There's no point increasing the workload of other staff, as that will only lead to further safety critical incidents
 
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