As a near daily user of both, atvpeak an off peak times, I can honestly say I don’t recognise the point about flows being disrupted by people faffing around the retail. At St Pancras by far the largest faffing is at Eurostar departures (as experienced twice this week). I see gas more faffimg (directionless dawdling I prefer to call it) on non-retailed thoroughfares, for example at Paddington (also twice this week) and Kings Cross LU.
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London Bridge shortlisted for award
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As a near daily user of both, atvpeak an off peak times, I can honestly say I don’t recognise the point about flows being disrupted by people faffing around the retail. At St Pancras by far the largest faffing is at Eurostar departures (as experienced twice this week). I see gas more faffimg (directionless dawdling I prefer to call it) on non-retailed thoroughfares, for example at Paddington (also twice this week) and Kings Cross LU.
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The new station is a miserable excuse for a London terminus. There's literally nothing good to say about it. If someone takes a photo and applies a brightness filter to it though I can see why non-users might rate it. To those who use it everyday, what might have been ...
bramling
Veteran Member
But surely the retail must draw people to the immediate area that wouldn’t otherwise be there? Either from other parts of the station, or even people who aren’t using rail at all? Not necessarily a bad thing, but keep it out the way of commuters.
Thankfully I don’t use London Bridge often - indeed I only really did it as a trial to give the new Thameslink service a chance. After finding it took forever to get from the Northern Line to the Thameslink platform (not helped by escalators being out of use), taking time to get through a crowded gate line, and then getting utterly drenched on the platform waiting for the - delayed - train, I decided the experience wasn’t for me, and it was back to civilised King’s Cross and comfortable 365s!
Having said that, the person I was travelling with did like the view of the river as we passed through Blackfriars...
But surely the retail must draw people to the immediate area that wouldn’t otherwise be there? Either from other parts of the station, or even people who aren’t using rail at all? Not necessarily a bad thing, but keep it out the way of commuters.
Thankfully I don’t use London Bridge often - indeed I only really did it as a trial to give the new Thameslink service a chance. After finding it took forever to get from the Northern Line to the Thameslink platform (not helped by escalators being out of use), taking time to get through a crowded gate line, and then getting utterly drenched on the platform waiting for the - delayed - train, I decided the experience wasn’t for me, and it was back to civilised King’s Cross and comfortable 365s!
Having said that, the person I was travelling with did like the view of the river as we passed through Blackfriars...
Ah, you obviously caught it on abad day then. Use it every day and you’ll find that:
1) You won’t get wet 99 times out of 100 (it doesn’t rain that much, and even when it does, the canopies usuallly do their job)
2) the escalators work (Only once have I been disadvantaged by one being out of use)
3) gateline is never, ever crowded, quite the opposite
4) Class 700 seats are actually quite comfortable
AlbertBeale
Established Member
That's the key thing for me, "conceptually simple" - I want a station that I can get a mental map of easily when I arrive. So, eg, an overbridge where you can simply see all the platforms lined up below you, with indicators for all the platforms. If the bridge is crowded, the answer is a bigger bridge, not removing it. I've got a train there a handful of times since the refurb/rehash, and on each occasion it's taken me much longer to find my way around and to get to the platform than it did with the old station - I just can't "read" the layout.
And as for the shelter... lots of people, especially those who can't rush around fast, and can't stand for ages, don't want to have to stand round on a big cold concourse waiting to scramble up a long escalator at the last minute. They/we expect to find the platform in good time, get to it easily, and need somewhere well sheltered to sit down while waiting for the train. London Bridge fails (for me) in this way.
I'm sure that regular commuters, who know their way around, have no problem. But for me, a design should be judged on how easily it works for those unfamiliar with it and for the most vulnerable. There are Underground interchanges I've used all my life, which I know every inch of and see no problem with, yet visitors spend absolute ages finding their way around - so I don't claim them to be well-designed, even though they work for me.
(Both the new St P and the new Kings Cross also - in my view - fail in many ways from these perspectives, and they're both ones I know a lot better than I do London Bridge, working next door to them for decades. But I'll say no more since this thread is about London Bridge!)
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
I don't think that's realistic. There are plenty of destinations from London Bridge that have only a half-hourly frequency, and a few that only have an hourly frequency.
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
Oh I totally agree that it is miles better than what was there before. But I think the question in this thread is whether it is good enough to deserve being nominated for the RIBA Stirling Prize, which is a rather different question.
Esker-pades
Established Member
Here's one good thing: The re-modelling means that there is significantly more capacity. More trains can run and more reliably. The asthetic stuff is purely subjective (the old London Bridge was horribly dingy and dark, with grubby windswept platforms). But, to say that there is "literally nothing good about it" is inaccurate. It's just tedious anti-rail pontification for the sake of it.
I really can’t see the conceptual difference between an overbridge where you can simply see all the platforms lined up below you, and an under-concourse where you can see all the platforms lined up above you, with indicators for all the platforms.
As an aside, the old footbridge had a big kick in it, so you couldn’t see all the platforms from one place. You can with the new concourse.
Dr Hoo
Established Member
Because the old overbridge was boxed in you couldn’t actually see any platform from any part of it. It was awful, visually, even though it was, indeed, conceptually simple. It wasn’t exactly York!
Mikey C
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The new station is an impressive piece of engineering and has many good points
The lack of enough toilets is a flaw though. If they want people to wait downstairs then not having any toilets within the gateline is pretty poor really, especially when many of the trains don't have toilets either
The escalators do eat a large chunk of the platform space, and the way they are spread out is great for 10 and 12 car trains, but not so good for 4 car services. Platform 1 is a bit rubbish too as there's only 1 up and 1 down to it.
The lack of enough toilets is a flaw though. If they want people to wait downstairs then not having any toilets within the gateline is pretty poor really, especially when many of the trains don't have toilets either
The escalators do eat a large chunk of the platform space, and the way they are spread out is great for 10 and 12 car trains, but not so good for 4 car services. Platform 1 is a bit rubbish too as there's only 1 up and 1 down to it.
To be fair on Platform 1 in normal operations:
-Trains only come from Cannon Street, so one would not expect very many alighting passengers coming down
-The single up escalator helps moderate peak flow up onto the platform
What is the problem with the toilets? I’ve never had a problem with them. Seem good to me.
AlbertBeale
Established Member
When i was last there, I couldn't see the platforms lined up above me - I had no idea where the platforms were, let alone which were the through and which the terminating platforms... There were no actual platforms or trains in sight!
From what I remember of the old overbridge it had tiny little windows that were normally so grubby you couldn't see out of them, certainly not a full view of the station and its layout.
The full layout of the station is irrelevant to commuters (who know which platform they need) and irrelevant to casual travellers (who will use the screens or an app to find out).
So is this yet another case of the forum being upset that the needs of our tiny community of railfans hasn't been fully taken in to account?
Im guessing those involved in the prize think differently
They layout hasnt changed though and the platforms are generally still in the same place so if you are facing number 8 downstairs then logic would tell you 1-7 are to your left and 9-15 are to your right - what is difficult about that?
AlbertBeale
Established Member
I guess people's minds work in different ways - eg over using maps and so on.
If I'm using a station I don't know well, I find it genuinely disconcerting and inhibiting not to be able to "read" the layout and have a conceptual overview of where things - especially the platforms and trains! - are. For me, looking at a screen and following orders is really difficult, I need a mental overview in order to be able to do things quickly and efficiently. This is nothing to do with being a part of some community of railfans - I have friends and travelling companions who have no interest in trains at all other than the functional one of getting from A to B, who find it really off-putting when the "railway part" of a station is buried behind architecture/shops/whatever. I know someone who now finds London Bridge really hard to use, and an elderly collegue who's almost literally frightened of Birmingham New Street now.
Did the big signs with platform numbers and arrows pointing the way not give it away?
Railwaysceptic
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But there were escalators and you must have seen them. What did you think they were there for? You must have already been familiar with the concept that at some stations the trains are above or below ground level.
Although I'm a Londoner, London Bridge is not a station I ever had to use on a daily basis and I find it easy to use. I was there yesterday in the rain and I had no difficulty finding a place on the platform to stay dry. I'm bewildered by the problems reported here.
AlbertBeale
Established Member
I don't dispute the experience of those who find it easy - even though the way your mind works isn't understandable to me. Please accept that some of us have different ways of thinking and seeing the world, and don't find it easy. As per my earlier points, signs are not the same as having an internal mental map, which is what I rely on. I can only recount the reality of my experiences and my frustrations - please accept they're real, even if your reality is such that you find it hard to sympathise.
My point about Birmingham New Street being not just confusing, but frightening, was not my own experience (I haven't used the station for years). But I might need to use the station quite soon, and - from what people I know who live in the area have told me - I'm really dreading how disorientating I might find it.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
It is quite simple: follow the signs to the numbered platforms. If you cant follow those just ask someone official. If you cant manage alone book assistance
New street is 10000000000000 times better than is used to be. It is, despite what experts here think, easy to use. Just like london bridge.
And no, you cant see the platforms at new street because (like they always have been) they are hidden under a massive concrete floor.......
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hooverboy
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the new london bridge platforms are still windswept!
as a previous poster pointed out there is precious little waiting areas shielded from the elements, not much seating,and the layout is extremely confusing if you are not familiar with the area.
I would take easy to use ,comfortable and functional over aesthetics any day
we see the same issue with crossrail I think. far too many PR people wanting the bells and whistles like locally sourced muirals taking priority over platforms!
ps ,as for 700 seats being comfortable!!!! compared to a rack or some other medieval dungeon instrument of torture,sure.
hooverboy
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the layout of new street is not idiot proof. you have access to platforms from all nooks and crannies of the building,rather than a properly central layout off the concourse.
if you've never been there before it's not easy to navigate either.
there seems to be in recent years a habit developing in transport hubs,that the retail area takes priority over the real purpose of the hub, to transport people from point A to point B as efficiently as possible.
I see this in airports a lot too, where straight after security you have miles of bendy walkway in the middle of a shop to traverse,before you hit departures.
If you are in a rush to catch a flight/connection it's incredibly annoying.
But in the case of New street the platforms have always been below the concourse and the signs are pretty clear as to where you need to go for which platform so it still functions as this hub you mention
Apart from the massive waiting area downstairs which is provided to give shelter - theres little reason for you to go upstairs until your train is due really.
Especially if there is a last minute platform alteration....
Dr Hoo
Established Member
Surely this totally misrepresents the concept of a “hub”?
If I live in Wick and and am only interested in ever going to Georgemas Junction then an efficient rail link is, indeed, a matter of A to B.
Unfortunately the function of locations such as London Bridge, Birmingham New Street and many others is to connect literally hundred of stations with each other as well as providing for connections with other modes. Furthermore, now that rail is increasingly seen as the ‘best’ way to commute, stations are frequently re-designed to provide far better links to surrounding neighbourhoods.
The future is seen at somewhere like Tokyo Shin Juku, with over 50 platforms, more than 200 entrances and exits, and millions of users per day.
I get that some people might prefer it if all stations were nice and compact, like Bradford Forster Square and if you wanted to get a train to anywhere else you could walk through calming town/city centre streets to another station that also had one entrance and one (slightly less) simple concourse but overall I think that the idea of in-station interchange has quite a lot to commend it.
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bramling
Veteran Member
New Street easy to use? Yes I agree it’s better than it once was, but that’s coming from a low base. I changed there recently on the way from Aberystwyth to London. The service was disrupted, it was approaching peak time (although not high peak), and platform alterations were happening on a constant basis. With trainloads of punters competing for limited space on the platforms and escalators it certainly wasn’t easy to use.
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