Pointless railcard rule (tickets for future journeys at ticket offices)

trainophile · 19 Jul 2019

I was collecting a ticket today when I remembered I also needed tickets for a local journey on Sunday. However I only had my own railcard with me, not my husband's, and needed tickets for both of us. I explained at the counter and asked if I could purchase the tickets with railcard discounts, but was told sorry not allowed.

So I sat on a seat and bought them online, then collected them from the ToD machine. They were available within 30 seconds of me completing my purchase.

Obviously railcards must be carried when travelling with a discounted ticket, but it's a bit draconian to not be able to buy a railcard discounted ticket for future travel without showing you have one. What is the point of this rule?

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freddie1729 · 19 Jul 2019

It occurred to me last time this happened that I could've just gone back to a different ticket clerk and bought the same ticket again. (In that case, my friend and I both had the same railcard)

trainophile · 19 Jul 2019

freddie1729 said:
It occurred to me last time this happened that I could've just gone back to a different ticket clerk and bought the same ticket again. (In that case, my friend and I both had the same railcard)

Need to be at a bigger station than my local one to do that! Only two clerks on duty and it was very quiet.

sheff1 · 19 Jul 2019

trainophile said:
Obviously railcards must be carried when travelling with a discounted ticket, but it's a bit draconian to not be able to buy a railcard discounted ticket for future travel without showing you have one. What is the point of this rule?

The only point is to get people to book online, as you did, rather than use a ticket office.

pdeaves · 19 Jul 2019

trainophile said:
What is the point of this rule?

I think that it's simply because 'that's the way it's always been' with a rule put in place before the internet revolutionised the way we do just about everything.

JB_B · 19 Jul 2019

pdeaves said:
I think that it's simply because 'that's the way it's always been' with a rule put in place before the internet revolutionised the way we do just about everything.

Yes - I'm not sure there's much point in this rule now - to circumvent either buy online or simply purchase from a ticket vending machine.

(Perhaps many of those retail staff who remain would agree?)

Of course, it can work the other way when TVMs enforce strict railcard time limits before issuing (without regard to the timetable) and staff can be more flexible.

Saperstein · 19 Jul 2019

trainophile said:
I was collecting a ticket today when I remembered I also needed tickets for a local journey on Sunday. However I only had my own railcard with me, not my husband's, and needed tickets for both of us. I explained at the counter and asked if I could purchase the tickets with railcard discounts, but was told sorry not allowed.

So I sat on a seat and bought them online, then collected them from the ToD machine. They were available within 30 seconds of me completing my purchase.

Obviously railcards must be carried when travelling with a discounted ticket, but it's a bit draconian to not be able to buy a railcard discounted ticket for future travel without showing you have one. What is the point of this rule?

Yes, indeed, I’ve never understood this rule. I hold a Disabled Persons Railcard and 90% of my ticket purchases are walk up or TOD on a TVM so no problem.

But The 10% I have used a ticket office, either because I am paying by RTV or using one of those bright yellow stations

I have always had to show my card.

Saperstein.

Bletchleyite · 19 Jul 2019

pdeaves said:
I think that it's simply because 'that's the way it's always been' with a rule put in place before the internet revolutionised the way we do just about everything.

Yeah, it's been the rule since long before online booking even existed. Back then you were made to show it when purchasing but very rarely on board.

To some extent I'm a bit surprised that you didn't have to enter the Railcard number when booking online when that was first introduced.

yorkie · 19 Jul 2019

trainophile said:
I was collecting a ticket today when I remembered I also needed tickets for a local journey on Sunday. However I only had my own railcard with me, not my husband's, and needed tickets for both of us. I explained at the counter and asked if I could purchase the tickets with railcard discounts, but was told sorry not allowed.

So I sat on a seat and bought them online, then collected them from the ToD machine. They were available within 30 seconds of me completing my purchase.

Obviously railcards must be carried when travelling with a discounted ticket, but it's a bit draconian to not be able to buy a railcard discounted ticket for future travel without showing you have one. What is the point of this rule?

Train companies want to deter people from using ticket offices, and some booking clerks are keen to accelerate the demise of their grade. York ticket office are not this dumb; I've had no problems buying tickets for holders of 16-25 and Senior Railcards for future travel without a Railcard being present. But if a particular ticket office has staff who wish to do themselves out of work, I'd make a point of doing exactly what you did.

It is pointless but it's also so, so typical of the rail industry!

krus_aragon · 19 Jul 2019

In the past (when my wife and I both had Y-P railcards) I was asked once or twice to show the railcards when buying tickets. I explained that "here's my railcard, the other railcard is at home. Do you need me to go home and get it?", and was sold the tickets anyway. There was probably a warning/reminder to have both railcards when travelling too (which would be quite appropriate for the ticket seller to do).

ainsworth74 · 19 Jul 2019

It of course does depend on the ticket clerk to some extent as well. I've recently purchased tickets for travel in the future both railcards and they had no interest in seeing them. Which was handy as I only had one of the two required at the time!

Llanigraham · 19 Jul 2019

I regularly buy tickets at 2 local stations and rarely get asked to see my Disabled Rail Card.

BlueFox · 19 Jul 2019

freddie1729 said:
It occurred to me last time this happened that I could've just gone back to a different ticket clerk and bought the same ticket again. (In that case, my friend and I both had the same railcard)

If it's not an Advance ticket and you don't need reservations you could do it in one transaction by telling them you're making the same journey twice on the same day. They probably wouldn't believe you if it was a Wick to Penzance ticket though...

AlbertBeale · 20 Jul 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Yeah, it's been the rule since long before online booking even existed. Back then you were made to show it when purchasing but very rarely on board.

To some extent I'm a bit surprised that you didn't have to enter the Railcard number when booking online when that was first introduced.

I've had (shared!) a Two Together railcard in recent years. My literal reading of the small print was that although you had to carry the card on the journey (obviously), you didn't need it at the ticket office when buying tickets. (Which makes logical sense, as others have said, since you can get tickets in other ways where they can't ask you to show the card.) I several times bought tickets in advance (and hence was on my own, and without the card since the other user is the person who keeps the card), without being asked to see the card. Only once was I ever asked to show it, and I explained that it was elsewhere since I was only half the owner of the card - and I got sold the tickets. (I didn't need to argue on technical grounds, since the guy was amenable to my plea that it wasn't my fault and he'd get me into trouble....!)

However, the last time we renewed the card, the blurb seemed to have changed, now implying that you do need the card with you when buying tickets. (Which still makes no sense of course.)

maniacmartin · 20 Jul 2019

This rule is annoying when you want to buy tickets for other peiple, as is having to produce a Travelcard when purchasing Boundary Zone tickets, as they cannot just be bought online. I've found that it really depends on the ticket office - a busy ticket office with a queue is likely to want to complete the transaction as fast as possible so less likely to demand to see the railcard.

Statto · 20 Jul 2019

I think the rule is to stop those buying railcard discount tickets when they don't have a railcard, as you know some people will try it on, main reason why you also have to show your railcard with the appropriate railcard discounted tickets to any RPI. guard when asked to do so

BlueFox · 20 Jul 2019

Statto said:
I think the rule is to stop those buying railcard discount tickets when they don't have a railcard, as you know some people will try it on

Those people who want to try it on will buy the ticket from a machine or online instead.

.

Ianno87 · 20 Jul 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Yeah, it's been the rule since long before online booking even existed. Back then you were made to show it when purchasing but very rarely on board.

To some extent I'm a bit surprised that you didn't have to enter the Railcard number when booking online when that was first introduced.

Because you may be buying Advance tickets for 2 months' time (say), but don't have a current Railcard nor are you likely to use one in the meantime, so would delay the purchase of the actual Rsilcard until just before travel (so you're not 'wasting' its validity)

Wallsendmag · 21 Jul 2019

LNER policy is that Railcards only need to be seen for tickets dated for the same day. Advance bookings can be sold without sight of the Railcard.

LNW-GW Joint · 21 Jul 2019

Bletchleyite said:
To some extent I'm a bit surprised that you didn't have to enter the Railcard number when booking online when that was first introduced.

That's how it works in Spain if you have a "railcard" (Tarjeta Dorada in my case). You need to quote a number before the discount appears.
The downside is that you can only get the cards over the counter in Spain, so you lose all the advance fare options until you get there and buy one.
It's surprising the railway doesn't make use of the personalisation aspect of numbered cards for promotion purposes, just like Tesco and all the major retailers do.
You'd then have an account with all sorts of usage tracking potential.

Barnsley · 21 Jul 2019

I work in a booking office, and if someone wants an advance with a Railcard I used to sell them it, until, a colleague had a similar request, they did it and it turned out the person was a mystery shopper, and because they didn’t have they Railcard they were pulled up over it when the results came through!

trainophile · 21 Jul 2019

Ianno87 said:
Because you may be buying Advance tickets for 2 months' time (say), but don't have a current Railcard nor are you likely to use one in the meantime, so would delay the purchase of the actual Rsilcard until just before travel (so you're not 'wasting' its validity)

This is a good point. You want to get your Advance tickets as soon as they become available to get the cheapest tier, but don't want to waste several weeks worth of railcard as you don't need to buy one until just before the date you want to travel. Thank goodness for online ticket purchasing options. I wonder how many people wouldn't know about this and get caught out. Sounds like LNER have the right idea if they only demand sight of the railcard for same day travel.

Bensonby · 21 Jul 2019

Many years ago at Charing Cross I was with a friend and we both had Young-Person railcards. My friend went first and bought his ticket, and then I went to buy mine and the ticket clerk wouldn’t sell me mine until my friend went back to the desk to show his railcard again. I assume, he was wondering if we had one railcard and had passed it between us. We didn’t look that similar, and obviously they had photo cards, so it was a bit bizarre.

RJ · 21 Jul 2019

BlueFox said:
Those people who want to try it on will buy the ticket from a machine or online instead.

It's wrong to assume that everyone thinks the same way you do.

I regularly get customers who want me to sell them a discounted ticket they aren't entitled to, then just buy the full price ticket from me despite there being machines a few metres away. Some people genuinely believe that if they can get someone to sell them a ticket that they shouldn't have, that validates it. If they buy it from a machine that's one less way to defend doing so.

Also consider that a significant proportion of customers cannot use TVMs - they're not designed with user friendliness for everyone in mind. I often get customers who have given up because it is not easy for them to add a railcard, a child ticket or find a single to a Tube station.

I go by the book where it comes to checking railcards at point of sale, even for future travel. Some people ask for the discount by name but don't realise they need to purchase a railcard to get the discount. Checking saves them a chat with revenue.

Leisurefirst · 22 Jul 2019

I was made at that hotbed of dishonesty and dodginess Kyle Of Lochalsh ticket office a few years back when wanting to buy a couple of day returns to Plockton to fetch the other Two Together cardholder (my elderly Mother who I had let already get on the waiting train etc.)... as we both apparently needed to be present...

jumble · 22 Jul 2019

trainophile said:
I was collecting a ticket today when I remembered I also needed tickets for a local journey on Sunday. However I only had my own railcard with me, not my husband's, and needed tickets for both of us. I explained at the counter and asked if I could purchase the tickets with railcard discounts, but was told sorry not allowed.

So I sat on a seat and bought them online, then collected them from the ToD machine. They were available within 30 seconds of me completing my purchase.

Obviously railcards must be carried when travelling with a discounted ticket, but it's a bit draconian to not be able to buy a railcard discounted ticket for future travel without showing you have one. What is the point of this rule?

The Americans are fond if this type of pointless behaviour
Buy ticket from counter Must show ID
Buy from machine on platform No ID required
At least the clerk refusing to sell is potentially increasing the railway's profits in the case of someone who going to use an advance in 2 months but does not want to buy the railcard till just before travel

Bletchleyite · 22 Jul 2019

Leisurefirst said:
I was made at that hotbed of dishonesty and dodginess Kyle Of Lochalsh ticket office a few years back when wanting to buy a couple of day returns to Plockton to fetch the other Two Together cardholder (my elderly Mother who I had let already get on the waiting train etc.)... as we both apparently needed to be present...

That's the kind of pickiness that would have me being as immature as to purchase the relevant tickets on my phone, collect from a TVM (if there is one there, I can't remember) and wave them in the member of staff's face (through the glass, for clarity I'm not proposing assault!) before boarding the train.

It's odd, as I generally find ScotRail staff to be quite good without this kind of thing going on.

Leisurefirst · 22 Jul 2019

Bletchleyite said:
That's the kind of pickiness that would have me being as immature as to purchase the relevant tickets on my phone, collect from a TVM (if there is one there, I can't remember) and wave them in the member of staff's face (through the glass, for clarity I'm not proposing assault!) before boarding the train.

It's odd, as I generally find ScotRail staff to be quite good without this kind of thing going on.

I got an apology and an assurance of training when I emailed a complaint to them once home (after double checking that this was indeed nonsense and that only one person need be present.)
The member of staff concerned I have to say was very pleasant at least, it was just a wee bit ridiculous.
Sadly no TVM (at least then), or I would have used that instead of dragging said relative off train or from far end of platform (can't remember) etc...

Pointless railcard rule (tickets for future journeys at ticket offices)

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