Is the Midland Mainline considered an "InterCity" route?

irish_rail · 19 Jul 2019

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/new-trains-for-east-midlands-franchise.180920/

ohgoditsjames said:
Anything less than 9 car units for the intercity services will be a tragedy...

If you can call London to Nottingham intercity I suppose. The western making do with primarily 5 car sets so see no reason why Midland should automatically get 9 cars.

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ohgoditsjames · 19 Jul 2019

irish_rail said:
If you can call London to Nottingham intercity I suppose. The western making do with primarily 5 car sets so see no reason why Midland should automatically get 9 cars.

Care to explain how London to Nottingham ISNT intercity?

Bletchleyite · 19 Jul 2019

ohgoditsjames said:
Care to explain how London to Nottingham ISNT intercity?

It's certainly comparable with the shorter-distance GWR services like the Bristols. It's not IC in the way the Westcountry services are, but then neither is Euston-Brum, and I can't see any reason why it should be inferior to that.

ohgoditsjames · 19 Jul 2019

Sheffield to London is intercity, Nottingham to London is intercity, Derby to London is intercity, Leicester to London is intercity.

I hate the attitude of “the MML isn’t a true intercity mainline” because that’s the exact reason why the MML has been neglected for so long and always gets overlooked/forgotten about.

The MML has been in dire need of some love for years, new 9 car/full length trains are the least that it deserves.

cnjb8 · 19 Jul 2019

ohgoditsjames said:
Sheffield to London is intercity, Nottingham to London is intercity, Derby to London is intercity, Leicester to London is intercity.

I hate the attitude of “the MML isn’t a true intercity mainline” because that’s the exact reason why the MML has been neglected for so long and always gets overlooked/forgotten about.

The MML has been in dire need of some love for years, new 9 car/full length trains are the least that it deserves.

I completely agree. EM is developing to be a major economic area with growing urban populations. It doesn't help that EM Airport has a station connected to it by a minivan, or that non-compliant trains will still run after 2020.

ohgoditsjames · 19 Jul 2019

cnjb8 said:
I completely agree. EM is developing to be a major economic area with growing urban populations. It doesn't help that EM Airport has a station connected to it by a minivan, or that non-compliant trains will still run after 2020.

To add to that, Sheffield will see a huge amount of office space built within the next few years as Grade A office take up within the city is at an all time high and there are countless number of residential schemes for the city centre providing thousands of new homes in the pipeline too (at least 5 of those will be above 32 storeys) With the new Heart of the city 2 scheme there will be around 700,000 sqr ft of office space built and West Bar square with another 750,000 sqr feet plus the additional office building that has just been approved for the Digital Campus.

Let’s not forget that the MML has a number of excellent universities on it too.

cnjb8 · 20 Jul 2019

The fact that people think that EM to London isn't intercity is unbelievable.

irish_rail · 20 Jul 2019

cnjb8 said:
We never seem to learn from our mistakes. The fact that people think that EM to London isn't intercity is unbelievable. Theirs a 3 hour drive from Nottingham, probably the same on a train.

Errr 1 hour 45 mins on average London to Nottingham, not really what I'd call intercity.

dk1 · 20 Jul 2019

irish_rail said:
Errr 1 hour 45 mins on average London to Nottingham, not really what I'd call intercity.

Intercity wasn't always about length of journey. It did just what it said, linked cities (generally to/from London) on reasonably fast comfortable trains.

ohgoditsjames · 20 Jul 2019

irish_rail said:
Errr 1 hour 45 mins on average London to Nottingham, not really what I'd call intercity.

What an utterly bizarre and quite frankly absurd statement. The fastest journey from York to Kings Cross is 1hr 47 minutes, does that mean York to London isn’t “intercity”
either?

Whether you like it or not, the MML is a major intercity mainline, it connects major cities to each other and the capital.

yorkie · 20 Jul 2019

dk1 said:
Intercity wasn't always about length of journey. It did just what it said, linked cities (generally to/from London) on reasonably fast comfortable trains.

Indeed; Gatwick Express used to be part of InterCity. And Norwich to London is perhaps comparable with Nottingham to London.

Surreytraveller · 20 Jul 2019

yorkie said:
Indeed; Gatwick Express used to be part of InterCity. And Norwich to London is perhaps comparable with Nottingham to London.

Yes, I was just going to post Gatwick Express was part of Intercity! And look at it now!

DarloRich · 20 Jul 2019

Yes. Of course it is

Mitchell Hurd · 20 Jul 2019

To be honest, I think if the Midland Mainline wasn't considered an InterCity route then the HST's wouldn't have probably been introduced in I believe 1978 (I'm 26 but I know quite a bit).

squizzler · 20 Jul 2019

I've not used the MML but get the impression it is more 'intercity' in character than Cross Country. Which I regard as an intercity operator also.

John Webb · 20 Jul 2019

The MML certainly was "Intercity". Before electrification southwards from Bedford, St Albans City station had 'Intercity' trains stopping there for many years and it was possible to get direct from St Albans to Nottingham, Derby, Sheffield, Manchester and Glasgow among other destinations.

dk1 · 20 Jul 2019

yorkie said:
Indeed; Gatwick Express used to be part of InterCity. And Norwich to London is perhaps comparable with Nottingham to London.

Indeed. For a while it was INTERCITY Anglia & Gatwick.

yorksrob · 20 Jul 2019

Yes, it certainly is.

sharpley · 20 Jul 2019

Surely InterCity means just that... connecting large cities with a reasonably fast and frequent train service. Certainly wouldn't call it a local or suburban route. Obviously not as long as the WCML, ECML or GWML but that should be irrelevant.

hexagon789 · 20 Jul 2019

irish_rail said:
Errr 1 hour 45 mins on average London to Nottingham, not really what I'd call intercity.

I don't see how journey time affects whether a route is InterCity or not, London-Inverness is about 8 hours and surely that is InterCity?

My view is its the type of train and more so the on-board facilities that determines a trains category (ie First Class, catering, more long-distance suited seating layout etc).

yorksrob · 20 Jul 2019

Surely the test of whether a route is InterCity, is whether it was in the InterCity timetable, which was published into the early noughties I think.

(Yes, the MML was, obviously).

hexagon789 · 20 Jul 2019

yorksrob said:
Surely the test of whether a route is InterCity, is whether it was in the InterCity timetable, which was published into the early noughties I think.

(Yes, the MML was, obviously).

Or the National Rail Highspeed guide, which I think was its privitisation era successor.

yorksrob · 20 Jul 2019

hexagon789 said:
Or the National Rail Highspeed guide, which I think was its privitisation era successor.

Ah, I didn't see that one. It was still IC when I had it (even though it was a few years after privatisation).

The InterCity guide was a useful companion in my university days !

43096 · 20 Jul 2019

Mitchell Hurd said:
To be honest, I think if the Midland Mainline wasn't considered an InterCity route then the HST's wouldn't have probably been introduced in I believe 1978 (I'm 26 but I know quite a bit).

HSTs on the MML started in 1982.

LAX54 · 20 Jul 2019

dk1 said:
Indeed. For a while it was INTERCITY Anglia & Gatwick.

And the Signallers, although BR, were part of the InterCity Anglia/Gatwick set up, and all had InterCity Uniforms, smart they were too ! (still have my tie

)

MrPIC · 20 Jul 2019

Does it even matter?

Speedbird96 · 21 Jul 2019

Yes, the Midland Main Line is definitely an intercity route; just like CrossCountry, Great Eastern etc. and even the Edinburgh/Glasgow to Aberdeen/Inverness are now advertised as intercity.

irish_rail said:
Errr 1 hour 45 mins on average London to Nottingham, not really what I'd call intercity.

What an absurd comment! Might as well disregard London Euston to Birmingham fasts as that takes less time. :rolleyes:

nottsnurse · 21 Jul 2019

Surely this must be some kind of wind-up?

The Nottingham/Derby Metropolitan area has a population of >1.5 million alone. Add in the populations on Sheffield, Leicester and Leeds (the MML goes to Leeds after all) and it is quite frankly laughable that anyone would question whether the MML is an Intercity route!

Ireland has a service it calls 'Intercity', yet Dublin has a population <2 million (the Greater Dublin Area) and none of its destinations cities have populations anywhere approaching those of cities on the MML. Does this mean Irish Intercity isn't really Intercity?

squizzler · 21 Jul 2019

hexagon789 said:
My view is its the type of train and more so the on-board facilities that determines a trains category (ie First Class, catering, more long-distance suited seating layout etc).

I agree that the existence of first class the current best indicator as to whether a train can be regarded as 'intercity' standard. In which case the MML counts, as eventually will the Transport to Wales service to Manchester, a DMU service with (shock horror!) doors at thirds along the coaches.

dk1 · 21 Jul 2019

squizzler said:
I agree that the existence of first class the current best indicator as to whether a train can be regarded as 'intercity' standard. In which case the MML counts, as eventually will the Transport to Wales service to Manchester, a DMU service with (shock horror!) doors at thirds along the coaches.

As did MML, Hull Trains & Anglia with class 170s covering IC services complete with 1st class & buffet counter.

Is the Midland Mainline considered an "InterCity" route?

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