Northern Only ticket - delay repay assumes used TPE?

cb a1 · 21 Jul 2019

Looking for some advice.
Had advance single ticket for 0845 from Lancaster to Manchester Piccadilly (arrive 0958) last week. Ticket valid only for Northern Trains only. Train was cancelled.
Asked at ticket office if I could use ticket to catch the next TPE train to Manchester. Told No, you need to buy a new ticket.
Needed to be in Manchester, so bought a new ticket as if I'd waited for the next Northern Train it was the 0947 arriving in Manchester at 1016 [78 minutes later].

Delay Repay from Northern Trains has only given me half the ticket price as they have assumed I caught the 0928 TPE train.

I think I should get 100%. Northern say I'm only entitled to 50%.
Any advice on who is correct?

RailUK Forums

Elecman · 21 Jul 2019

That isn’t a Delay Repay issue but aI full refund as You bought another ticket

cb a1 · 21 Jul 2019

Elecman said:
That isn’t a Delay Repay issue but aI full refund as You bought another ticket

Thanks. Didn't realise that. I'll email them and ask for a refund. Am I right to presume it's exactly the same financial reimbursement (100% of ticket cost)?

Bletchleyite · 21 Jul 2019

cb a1 said:
Thanks. Didn't realise that. I'll email them and ask for a refund. Am I right to presume it's exactly the same financial reimbursement (100% of ticket cost)?

Yes, but you have to obtain it from the retailer, not the offending TOC.

yorkie · 21 Jul 2019

cb a1 said:
Looking for some advice.
Had advance single ticket for 0845 from Lancaster to Manchester Piccadilly (arrive 0958) last week. Ticket valid only for Northern Trains only. Train was cancelled.
Asked at ticket office if I could use ticket to catch the next TPE train to Manchester. Told No, you need to buy a new ticket.
Needed to be in Manchester, so bought a new ticket as if I'd waited for the next Northern Train it was the 0947 arriving in Manchester at 1016 [78 minutes later].

Delay Repay from Northern Trains has only given me half the ticket price as they have assumed I caught the 0928 TPE train.

I think I should get 100%. Northern say I'm only entitled to 50%.
Any advice on who is correct?

This should be a refund of the unused ticket, from the retailer. The whole amount must be refunded.

However you have also exposed a major flaw with the way Northern's Delay Repay software works. It's absolutely awful and must be diddling thousands of passengers out of their rightful compensation. I know of others who have experienced this. The software seems to be incapable of understanding the restrictions applicable to a ticket and/or assumes ticket acceptance is always in place to take the next operator's train (we wish!)

cb a1 · 21 Jul 2019

Awesome. Thanks so much for the prompt advice. Obviously no-one read my original claim as I explained that I'd bought a new ticket!

yorkie · 21 Jul 2019

cb a1 said:
Awesome. Thanks so much for the prompt advice. Obviously no-one read my original claim as I explained that I'd bought a new ticket!

You're welcome

As this is Northern you're talking about, I'd be surprised if they did read it. Or, if they did, I'd be surprised if they understood it.

Haywain · 22 Jul 2019

And a complaint to Virgin Trains as staff at Lancaster really should have approved travel on another service rather than advising you to buy a new ticket.

Bletchleyite · 22 Jul 2019

Haywain said:
And a complaint to Virgin Trains as staff at Lancaster really should have approved travel on another service rather than advising you to buy a new ticket.

For one cancellation there is no entitlement to travel on another TOC's train. They would have had to ask TPE's permission, and TPE would probably have refused.

JBuchananGB · 22 Jul 2019

The entitlement is to a refund of 100% of the price of the Northern-only Advance, without an admin fee because of the abandoned journey due to cancellation, and this can be claimed from the retailer who sold the ticket. OP does not mention who that was. OP has received a 50% compensation through the Delay Repay scheme, from Northern as the operator of the cancelled train. I suppose this 50% should be returned to Northern as it was issued in error, and the refund claim then be submitted to the retailer.
I can't see any compensation being available for cost of the replacement ticket, which the OP was obliged to purchase in order to get to his destination in time for his committed arrangements.

Haywain · 22 Jul 2019

Bletchleyite said:
For one cancellation there is no entitlement to travel on another TOC's train. They would have had to ask TPE's permission, and TPE would probably have refused.

A ticket office should give relevant advice and from the OP's account it appears that they went no further than needing to buy another ticket. They could equally have advised the OP to speak with the guard of the TPE service and that the ticket would be accepted on the next Northern service. If they didn't do anything of that nature they are at fault.

hkstudent · 22 Jul 2019

Haywain said:
A ticket office shopuld give relevant advice and from the OP's account it appears that they went no further than needing to buy another ticket. They could equally have advised the OP to speak with the guard of the TPE service and that the ticket would be accepted on the next Northern service. If they didn't do anything of that nature they are at fault.

The delay wasn't a cat2 major delay, other TOCs have no obligation in taking delayed passengers. The ticket office was right in saying the need of buying a new ticket.
But, the officer must also indicate the possibility of refunding the unused Northern ticket.

Bertie the bus · 22 Jul 2019

Haywain said:
They could equally have advised the OP to speak with the guard of the TPE service ...

That would have been ridiculous advice. If the guard said no then the OP would have been stuck there as they wouldn't have had a valid ticket to board the TPE service. Most people, the OP for example as they have already stated, travel for a reason and normally want to get to their destination by a certain time.

Haywain · 22 Jul 2019

hkstudent said:
he delay wasn't a cat2 major delay, other TOCs have no obligation in taking delayed passengers.

And yet TOCs make such arrangements on a regular basis regardless of 'category' of delay. It isn't always about obligation.

Bertie the bus said:
That would have been ridiculous advice.

And yet it is advice that we see very regularly on this forum.

Bertie the bus · 22 Jul 2019

Haywain said:
And yet it is advice that we see very regularly on this forum.

Advice given informally which couldn't be more different to official advice from the railway. If somebody asks a member of rail staff they should be given clear, unambiguous, accurate information - not oh, you might try this but only on a Wednesday afternoon.

gray1404 · 22 Jul 2019

Provided the OP didn't give any incorrect information to Northern, they are entitled to keep what Northern have sent them in compensation in response to their contact. Northern may have sent this as a goodwill gesture and likewise it is not the OPs fault if Northern have made errors and not read their complaint correctly.

Have Northern paid delay repay compensation for 50% of tbe cost of the original Northern only ticket you held or is it 50% of the cost of the second ticket you purchased? Was this second ticket an Any Permitted ticket?

I would also follow the advise given above that you need to return your original ticket for a refund.

Bletchleyite · 22 Jul 2019

Bertie the bus said:
That would have been ridiculous advice. If the guard said no then the OP would have been stuck there as they wouldn't have had a valid ticket to board the TPE service. Most people, the OP for example as they have already stated, travel for a reason and normally want to get to their destination by a certain time.

The proper advice might have been that they could:
1. Take the next Northern train
2. Ask the TPE guard before boarding if they will accept it in the circumstances, but be aware that if the answer is no then that may mean missing that train unless the guard will agree to sell the relevant ticket on board (again ask before boarding). Given the state of Northern at present it wouldn't entirely surprise me if TPE would issue an instruction not to do this.
3. Purchase a new ticket and be certain of obstacle-free travel on the TPE.

yorkie · 22 Jul 2019

gray1404 said:
Provided the OP didn't give any incorrect information to Northern, they are entitled to keep what Northern have sent them in compensation in response to their contact. Northern may have sent this as a goodwill gesture and likewise it is not the OPs fault if Northern have made errors and not read their complaint correctly.....

I think to cover oneself from any potential accusation of wrongdoing I'd write back to say that it wasn't correct to give the level of compensation that they provided, and that I have since submitted the ticket for a full refund as the ticket was unused, and therefore if they wish for the compensation to be paid back, to please advise accordingly.
In practice it is extremely unlikely that Northern would want the compensation to be paid back, but it is probably best to declare this.

Bletchleyite · 22 Jul 2019

yorkie said:
I think to cover oneself from any potential accusation of wrongdoing I'd write back to say that it wasn't correct to give the level of compensation that they provided, and that I have since submitted the ticket for a full refund as the ticket was unused, and therefore if they wish for the compensation to be paid back, to please advise accordingly.
In practice it is extremely unlikely that Northern would want the compensation to be paid back, but it is probably best to declare this.

Is it not more likely that the refund will be blocked by the DR claim having "proven it was used"? Or is that kind of cross-check not done?

gray1404 · 22 Jul 2019

Don't mean to complicate things here but...

If there an argument that the OP is entitled to a refund on their unused ticket AND delay repay on the ticket they used? I would say there might be on the basis they didn't use their first ticket due to the train was cancelled. However, they then had to buy a second ticket and it doesn't take away the fact they arrived at their destination late? So in other words, although they had to buy a new ticket they should still be compensated for their late arrival (moreover, if the new ticket would have been valid on the cancelled Northern service also)? See my logic here?

Thoughts?

Bletchleyite · 22 Jul 2019

gray1404 said:
Don't mean to complicate things here but...

If there an argument that the OP is entitled to a refund on their unused ticket AND delay repay on the ticket they used? I would say there might be on the basis they didn't use their first ticket due to the train was cancelled. However, they then had to buy a second ticket and it doesn't take away the fact they arrived at their destination late? So in other words, although they had to buy a new ticket they should still be compensated for their late arrival (moreover, if the new ticket would have been valid on the cancelled Northern service also)? See my logic here?

Thoughts?

No, definitely not. You would be entitled to it for the first ticket if you accepted the delay and travelled later. The new ticket is a separate contract, purchased based on the situation publicised when it was purchased.

yorkie · 22 Jul 2019

gray1404 said:
Don't mean to complicate things here but...

If there an argument that the OP is entitled to a refund on their unused ticket AND delay repay on the ticket they used? I would say there might be on the basis they didn't use their first ticket due to the train was cancelled. However, they then had to buy a second ticket and it doesn't take away the fact they arrived at their destination late? So in other words, although they had to buy a new ticket they should still be compensated for their late arrival (moreover, if the new ticket would have been valid on the cancelled Northern service also)? See my logic here?

Thoughts?

I think that in order to answer this I would be wanting to establish the exact circumstances in which the replacement ticket was issued.

If the original ticket should have been accepted as valid for travel, then the customer should not be left out of pocket.

If the customer chose not to adhere to appropriate alternative arrangements for the original ticket, and was happy to buy a replacement, and it was correct and appropriate for the replacement to be issued, then delay repay wouldn't apply to the replacement ticket unless the customer was further delayed on top of the expected arrival time at the time that ticket was purchased.

As we don't have the full information about the original itinerary, ant replacement itinerary that would have been available without the purchasing of a new ticket, it is difficult to form a conclusion.

gray1404 · 22 Jul 2019

Thanks, I've been in this situation a couple of times when I've had a TOC only ticket but I've opted to not cop the excessive delay and got a new Any Permitted ticket on the day. I've then taken the next available train. But if I've still arrived later then my original time I've emailed Customer Service stating clearly my intended itinerary, actual itinerary in light of their delay or cancellation. I've then stated and attached a photo of ticket I used to travel. On the 2 occasions I have done this the I've received delay repay based on my delayed arrival time and the value of the new Any Permitted ticket I've used. I have also had no issues getting the first ticket refunded either as It has been unused due to a delay. I guess the way I write my email though is key: i.e. presenting the TOC with all the facts in a clear logical way and asking them to consider compensation under the circumstances.

cb a1 · 22 Jul 2019

Wow, didn't expect what I thought to be a simple query to get so complex!
Ticket was £4.50 bought by employer who won't spend time asking their 3rd party supplier for refund.
I actually arrived in Manchester 27 minutes early as I was able to catch a slightly late running TPE train!

JBuchananGB · 22 Jul 2019

So you presented yourself at Lancaster at about 8.30am on 18 July intending to catch the 8.45. Noticed it was cancelled, obtained a new ticket, and caught the late-running 8.28am TPE service (departed 8.36). Intended journey was not delayed. A chat with your employer about refunding your new ticket is in order.

cb a1 · 22 Jul 2019

JBuchananGB said:
So you presented yourself at Lancaster at about 8.30am on 18 July intending to catch the 8.45. Noticed it was cancelled, obtained a new ticket, and caught the late-running 8.28am TPE service (departed 8.36). Intended journey was not delayed. A chat with your employer about refunding your new ticket is in order.

Spot on.

Aye, no problem getting the refund on the new ticket. Just a shame that having made all the bookings as soon as I knew I was going to Manchester to take advantage of the best fares that I ended up with a walk-on fare and the refund on the original ticket is more time-consuming than the value of the ticket. Ho hum.

yorkie · 22 Jul 2019

Were Northern/TPE really expecting passengers for the cancelled 0846 to wait until the delayed 1046 (which was around 30 mins late; and the fact it was going to be late would have been known at the time you were at the station as the inward working was late) when there were other TPE services during that time?

Or did Virgin just state this wasn't possible without checking? I'd never accept advice like this from a third party and would always ask Northern and TPE directly. As well as tweeting them, I'd ask the Guard on the TPE.

If they refused to honour the ticket in the circumstance described, then I'd be looking to recover more than just a refund of the original ticket.

These things can get very messy as you can potentially have four companies involved, if you purchase replacement tickets from a different retailer to the original retailer, and where the company operating the station is different to the company operating the trains, and where the company whose train was cancelled has no train running for ages and another company does.

I don't think the DfT, Transport Focus, and other relevant bodies really understand just what issues actually go on!

cb a1 · 23 Jul 2019

IIRC, I asked at the booking office if I could catch the next train as I needed to be in Manchester. Booking office said: "No, you need a new ticket."
In a sense, it was useful having very simple and clear advice (despite it being wrong). For me, being on time was my primary objective.
If I'd asked what my options were, I might have got a more fulsome answer?

221129 · 23 Jul 2019

cb a1 said:
IIRC, I asked at the booking office if I could catch the next train as I needed to be in Manchester. Booking office said: "No, you need a new ticket."
In a sense, it was useful having very simple and clear advice (despite it being wrong). For me, being on time was my primary objective.
If I'd asked what my options were, I might have got a more fulsome answer?

The advice was correct by the letter of the rules. Albeit not particularly common senseical.

gray1404 · 23 Jul 2019

I have long said that there needs to be a rule that comes into play that allows customers with TOC specific tickets to take the next available train of any TOC, if the next train operated by the TOC on their ticket exceeds a certain amount of time. In my view that should be 30 minutes.

I am also of the view that customers with TOC specific tickets should be able to excess their tickets at the time to other fares at times of disruption, if they do not wish to wait for the next train they can take at times of disruption, with the value of their existing ticket taken into account.

Northern Only ticket - delay repay assumes used TPE?

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