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Validity of two area tickets on through train

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Ace Of Pacer

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Hi all

I live in Leeds and am starting new job in Manchester. My preference for commuting would be to get a West Yorkshire Metrocard monthly and a Greater Manchester area monthly ticket, so that as well as commuting I can see a bit of the world on my downtime.

However, I’m not sure whether the two tickets combined would be valid on through TransPennine trains? Obviously the WY ticket is valid Huddersfield-Leeds, and the Manchester ticket valid for say Stalybridge-Manchester, but if my train is Leeds-Hudd-Manc, is my WY ticket valid up until the imaginary borderline short of Greenfield, and then instantly my Manchester ticket is valid? Or doesn’t it work like that?

Thanks in advance!
 
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alistairlees

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Hi all

I live in Leeds and am starting new job in Manchester. My preference for commuting would be to get a West Yorkshire Metrocard monthly and a Greater Manchester area monthly ticket, so that as well as commuting I can see a bit of the world on my downtime.

However, I’m not sure whether the two tickets combined would be valid on through TransPennine trains? Obviously the WY ticket is valid Huddersfield-Leeds, and the Manchester ticket valid for say Stalybridge-Manchester, but if my train is Leeds-Hudd-Manc, is my WY ticket valid up until the imaginary borderline short of Greenfield, and then instantly my Manchester ticket is valid? Or doesn’t it work like that?

Thanks in advance!
There have been numerous threads on this. The West Yorkshire metrocard is only valid on the train as far as marsden. And the greater Manchester ticket is not valid to there. So you need another ticket to bridge the gap. ‘Twas ever thus.
 

Solent&Wessex

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The M Card website has a handy map under a link saying "Check out your zones".

This shows the extent of validity stopping dead at Marsden with no extension into the tunnel or towards Greenfield.

Screenshot_20190721-113711_Adobe Acrobat.jpg
 

yorkie

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Hi all

I live in Leeds and am starting new job in Manchester. My preference for commuting would be to get a West Yorkshire Metrocard monthly and a Greater Manchester area monthly ticket, so that as well as commuting I can see a bit of the world on my downtime.

However, I’m not sure whether the two tickets combined would be valid on through TransPennine trains? Obviously the WY ticket is valid Huddersfield-Leeds, and the Manchester ticket valid for say Stalybridge-Manchester, but if my train is Leeds-Hudd-Manc, is my WY ticket valid up until the imaginary borderline short of Greenfield, and then instantly my Manchester ticket is valid? Or doesn’t it work like that?

Thanks in advance!
My understanding is that bus operators consider each ticket to have continual validity right up to the border, and thus there is no "gap" however train operators consider each ticket to only be valid to/from the last/first station within the relevant area, thus a "gap" is considered to exist between the validity of the two products (ie. Marsden and Greenfield), and therefore an additional ticket is deemed necessary to bridge the "gap".

The evidence I've heard is that TPE staff are much more likely than Northern staff to consider that there is a "gap" and charge someone an additional fare if not holding a ticket for the "gap".

It is, however, a very grey area, as both tickets are zonal tickets. In London there is not considered to be a "gap" between the validity of, say, a Zones 1-3 Travelcard and a Zones 4-6 Travelcard. I'm yet to see a good explanation as to why the rules should be different up North compared to in London.

However I would not recommend anyone tries it without taking legal advice first.
 

Ace Of Pacer

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Thanks all. So just to confirm....!

If I did get a Marsden-Greenfield season as well as the WY and GMPTE seasons, would I definitely have validity on Leeds-Hudd-Manc services that don’t stop at either of those stations? i.e. there is very little chance of being challenged by a TPE conductor if presented with those three tickets? Obviously it’s a big investment, but it’s only about £60 more expensive per month than a straightforward Kirkstall Forge to Manchester monthly ticket, so worth it for the extra flexibility. But it might appear an odd combination when presented for inspection.
 

Mag_seven

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The above just highlights how totally useless this country is when it comes to trying to implement a zonal system where you need to travel between adjacent zones. Compare and contrast to Switzerland where the whole country is divided into fare zones.
 

etr221

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My interpretation of both the WY and GM ticketing web sites (and WY cross border pdf, including map) is that their ticket is valid throughout their counties (areas) - this is perhaps the critical question for the OP to ask and get a positive answer to - i.e. to the county boundary. But for travel beyond the last station before the boundary (Marsden or Greenfield), you do need a ticket valid for travel beyond the border - which assuming WY and GM counties do meet (and there's not a bit of neither in between) the other provides.
 

Bletchleyite

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The above just highlights how totally useless this country is when it comes to trying to implement a zonal system where you need to travel between adjacent zones. Compare and contrast to Switzerland where the whole country is divided into fare zones.

I think you're thinking of the Netherlands (which did have but got rid of it on moving to the Chipkaart). In Switzerland only certain areas have a "Verbundtarif", though they are growing. Most of the rest of it has separate train and bus ticketing, usually based on distance. It's a bit like Germany in that regard.
 

yorkie

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Thanks all. So just to confirm....!

If I did get a Marsden-Greenfield season as well as the WY and GMPTE seasons, would I definitely have validity on Leeds-Hudd-Manc services that don’t stop at either of those stations? i.e. there is very little chance of being challenged by a TPE conductor if presented with those three tickets? Obviously it’s a big investment, but it’s only about £60 more expensive per month than a straightforward Kirkstall Forge to Manchester monthly ticket, so worth it for the extra flexibility. But it might appear an odd combination when presented for inspection.
I think so. The rule is :
NRCoT Condition 14.2 said:
If you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or another area based Ticket such as a concessionary pass, ranger or rover in conjunction with another Ticket and the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the first station that the other Ticket is valid are the same, then the train does not need to call at that station for your combination to be valid
You are combining the first and second tickets at Marsden; the train does not need to call at Marsden. You are then combining the second and third tickets at Greenfield; the train does not need to call at Greenfield.
My interpretation of both the WY and GM ticketing web sites (and WY cross border pdf, including map) is that their ticket is valid throughout their counties (areas) - this is perhaps the critical question for the OP to ask and get a positive answer to - i.e. to the county boundary. But for travel beyond the last station before the boundary (Marsden or Greenfield), you do need a ticket valid for travel beyond the border - which assuming WY and GM counties do meet (and there's not a bit of neither in between) the other provides.
That's a strong argument, but if you refused to pay for a Greenfield to Marsden ticket when challenged, and it went to court, it could be costly. I would strongly advise against anyone appearing in court without being properly represented by a suitably qualified and knowledgeable person. If you lose, you would get a criminal record. It's not a level playing field.
 

Ianigsy

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Depending on whether you need to use public transport at either end of the journey or not , I'd also be wary about sacrificing the flexibility to use the Calder Valley and Brighouse routes in the event of disruption or overcrowding.

Another option is to get an MCard and a Huddersfield-Manchester season, which would give you the flexibility in WY.
 

bb21

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It is, however, a very grey area, as both tickets are zonal tickets. In London there is not considered to be a "gap" between the validity of, say, a Zones 1-3 Travelcard and a Zones 4-6 Travelcard. I'm yet to see a good explanation as to why the rules should be different up North compared to in London.
The London system is not different because the same principle applies to zones within the same system in WY and GM too, so between Zone 3 and Zone 4 in WY there is no gap.

It really only becomes a grey area when you consider zoning arrangements under two different systems, as is the case in this example, which is not an issue for London Travelcard zones which you are referring to. What is required is for both WY and GM authorities to clarify where zonal boundary lie exactly in relation to rail use, and perhaps pressing for answers as to why there is a discrepancy, if any, with the zonal arrangement on buses.
 

Joe Paxton

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The London system is not different because the same principle applies to zones within the same system in WY and GM too, so between Zone 3 and Zone 4 in WY there is no gap.

It really only becomes a grey area when you consider zoning arrangements under two different systems, as is the case in this example, which is not an issue for London Travelcard zones which you are referring to. What is required is for both WY and GM authorities to clarify where zonal boundary lie exactly in relation to rail use, and perhaps pressing for answers as to why there is a discrepancy, if any, with the zonal arrangement on buses.

Agreed - there are two different zonal systems in play, so any comparison between this WY/GM issue to London Travelcard zoning doesn't hold (for me at least).
 

pdq

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I did this (albeit from Batley) between 2011 and 2015 with a Metrocard and a Marsden to Manchester season. It was about £50 a year more than the straight season with the advantage of unlimited bus travel. I never had any issues with the tickets and on the only time TPE were having trouble, the Northern guard allowed me to travel on the Calder stopper to VIC. During the Stalybridge blockade the ticket combination was accepted.
 

Belperpete

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I was about to say that I don't understand why people keep saying that WY need to clarify where the zonal boundary is, as it is clearly specified in the tables in their guide to cross-boundary travel. On the Huddersfield to Manchester route (boundary 27), for example, it clearly states that by bus you are allowed to travel as far as Standedge - Great Western hotel. Then I re-read the rail bit. It does indeed state that Marsden is the last station - for Huddersfield to Man Vic services. For Huddersfield to Man Picc services, it states that Huddersfield is the limit. If I am right in my reading, a Marsden to Greenfield ticket would only cover the OP on a service to or from Vic.

The suggestion above of a Huddersfield to Man season would cover the OP to both Picc and Vic -assuming he buys a season valid to both. In which case, he should also be entitled to break journey, start or end at any intermediate station along any route over which that season is valid. I suggest the OP compares the cost of this season with the cost of the GM card, bearing in mind how often he is likely to want to travel elsewhere in Manchester, and that when he does so, he only needs to buy a ticket to get him from any station where the season is valid.
 

yorkie

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I was about to say that I don't understand why people keep saying that WY need to clarify where the zonal boundary is, as it is clearly specified in the tables in their guide to cross-boundary travel. On the Huddersfield to Manchester route (boundary 27), for example, it clearly states that by bus you are allowed to travel as far as Standedge - Great Western hotel. Then I re-read the rail bit. It does indeed state that Marsden is the last station - for Huddersfield to Man Vic services. For Huddersfield to Man Picc services, it states that Huddersfield is the limit.
Until relatively recently, the train needed to call at a station where you changed from one ticket to another.

WY Metro are not exactly the sort of organisation that keeps its literature up to date, nor are they knowledgeable about fares matters.
If I am right in my reading, a Marsden to Greenfield ticket would only cover the OP on a service to or from Vic.
This is wrong; it makes no sense anyway, given there are regular journey opportunities from both Marsden and Greenfield to both Victoria (via Ashton) and Piccadilly (via Guide Bridge).
 

Belperpete

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WY Metro are not exactly the sort of organisation that keeps its literature up to date, nor are they knowledgeable about fares matters.
Regardless of their competence, aren't WY Metro the ultimate arbiters of the validity of a WY MetroCard? Whether or not there is any logic to it based on current service patterns, their published literature clearly states that if on a Huddersfield - Man Vic service then your WY Metrocard is valid Huddersfield - Marsden, whereas if on a Leeds - Huddersfield - Man Picc service, then your WY MetroCard is only valid between Leeds and Huddersfield.

So I fully agree that with a season the train doesn't need to call at Marsden, but according to WY Metro's published conditions, if you are on a Leeds to Man Picc service, their card does not entitle you to travel between Huddersfield and Marsden.
 

Belperpete

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This is wrong; it makes no sense anyway, given there are regular journey opportunities from both Marsden and Greenfield to both Victoria (via Ashton) and Piccadilly (via Guide Bridge).
Just to clarify, I don't disagree that the restriction makes no sense, I am just querying the basis on which you claim it is "wrong". Various TOCs apply conditions on their tickets, such as that they are only valid on specified routes, or at particular times, some of which are for historic reasons that may have little to do with current service patterns. Are you saying that WY Metro are not allowed to similarly specify the conditions on which their MetroCard is valid? Or are you saying that I have misread the table in WY Metro's guide - if so, can you please explain in what way, as it seems pretty straight-forward to me.
 

yorkie

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Regardless of their competence, aren't WY Metro the ultimate arbiters of the validity of a WY MetroCard? Whether or not there is any logic to it based on current service patterns, their published literature clearly states that if on a Huddersfield - Man Vic service then your WY Metrocard is valid Huddersfield - Marsden, whereas if on a Leeds - Huddersfield - Man Picc service, then your WY MetroCard is only valid between Leeds and Huddersfield.
To demonstrate how absurd this is, if you board a train at Huddersfield going to Victoria, you won't call at Marsden. But if you board a train going directly to Piccadilly (ie. via Guide Bridge), you will.

WY Metro can't rip up the NRCoT, nor can any party engage in a practise that is anti consumer , or in breach of competition laws.

It's not true that an organisation can just decide to implement something on a whim without consideration of relevant laws.
So I fully agree that with a season the train doesn't need to call at Marsden, but according to WY Metro's published conditions, if you are on a Leeds to Man Picc service, their card does not entitle you to travel between Huddersfield and Marsden.
Well it clearly does! That's not even slightly contentious as those trains do call at Marsden!

As I said above:

WY Metro are not exactly the sort of organisation that keeps its literature up to date, nor are they knowledgeable about fares matters.
 

hkstudent

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WY Metro are not exactly the sort of organisation that keeps its literature up to date, nor are they knowledgeable about fares matters.
I think this also applies to the M Card Delay Repay issue
 
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Belperpete

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To demonstrate how absurd this is, if you board a train at Huddersfield going to Victoria, you won't call at Marsden. But if you board a train going directly to Piccadilly (ie. via Guide Bridge), you will.

WY Metro can't rip up the NRCoT, nor can any party engage in a practise that is anti consumer , or in breach of competition laws.

It's not true that an organisation can just decide to implement something on a whim without consideration of relevant laws.

Well it clearly does! That's not even slightly contentious as those trains do call at Marsden!

As I said above:

WY Metro are not exactly the sort of organisation that keeps its literature up to date, nor are they knowledgeable about fares matters.
Again, not disagreeing that the conditions may be absurd with the current service pattern. But in what way are they in contravention of the NRCoT, or in breach of competition or any other law?

Surely WYMetro are entitled to specify what lines and what services their MetroCard can be used on? If that means there are a very limited number of services that you can use to access a particular station, then that may be absurd, but unless they are doing something illegal, tough luck. The conditions are freely accessible, if you don't like the conditions then don't buy the product. If I buy a zone ticket, I can't travel where I like simply because I disagree with where the zone boundaries have been drawn, no matter how illogical or absurd I consider them to be, or what I think about the competence of the organisation that drew them.

Just as it is very true, as you say, that an organisation can't just decide to implement something on a whim without considering the relevant law, so it is equally true that individuals can't on a whim decide to ignore clearly published terms and conditions simply because they don't like them.
 

_toommm_

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It does indeed state that Marsden is the last station - for Huddersfield to Man Vic services. For Huddersfield to Man Picc services, it states that Huddersfield is the limit. If I am right in my reading, a Marsden to Greenfield ticket would only cover the OP on a service to or from Vic.

This will arc back to the days when PTE-issued tickets weren't valid for non-stop splits from Condition 14.2 of the NRCoT. Back then IIRC, Northern ran all stops Vic to Huddersfield, and TPE ran express Huddersfield to either Stalybridge or Manchester Pic, so using the MetroCard beyond Huddersfield on TPE wasn't valid.
 

ac-03

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Personally I think that the rail companies don’t like the practice of discounted TPE tickets. Look at the costs of bridging the tickets between Merseyside/Greater Manchester and West Yorkshire by purchasing single/return tickets the price is insane for that “one stop”
 

yorkie

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Again, not disagreeing that the conditions may be absurd with the current service pattern. But in what way are they in contravention of the NRCoT, or in breach of competition or any other law?
You say that WY Metro has a term that states a TPE service to Manchester Piccadilly is not valid beyond Huddersfield on a MetroCard; if that term does exist it is not binding as it contradicts the NRCoT and would also be an unfair contract term and a breach of consumer laws.
Surely WYMetro are entitled to specify what lines and what services their MetroCard can be used on?
It's not true that an operator can specify any term they like; if that term is an abuse of a dominant position, or an unfair term, or contradicts other contractual terms, then it would not be lawful.
If that means there are a very limited number of services that you can use to access a particular station, then that may be absurd, but unless they are doing something illegal, tough luck.
Indeed they may be "doing something illegal".
The conditions are freely accessible, if you don't like the conditions then don't buy the product.
Right now there are train companies selling products with unfair terms; if people choose to pay extra because of such a term, then that is evidence that the unfair term is resulting in people overpaying.

It's not true to suggest that companies or organisations can introduce literally any term they want.
If I buy a zone ticket, I can't travel where I like simply because I disagree with where the zone boundaries have been drawn, no matter how illogical or absurd I consider them to be, or what I think about the competence of the organisation that drew them.
Is anyone suggesting that you can?
Just as it is very true, as you say, that an organisation can't just decide to implement something on a whim without considering the relevant law, so it is equally true that individuals can't on a whim decide to ignore clearly published terms and conditions simply because they don't like them.
The two are completely different and not really comparable.

It is true that people tend not to ignore unfair contractual terms, and instead pay more money; if this happens a lot then a class action lawsuit could be viable. Some train companies are skating on thin ice in this regard; mark my words!
 

Belperpete

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You say that WY Metro has a term that states a TPE service to Manchester Piccadilly is not valid beyond Huddersfield on a MetroCard; if that term does exist it is not binding as it contradicts the NRCoT and would also be an unfair contract term and a breach of consumer laws. It's not true that an operator can specify any term they like; if that term is an abuse of a dominant position, or an unfair term, or contradicts other contractual terms, then it would not be lawful.
How does it contradict the NRCoT? I cannot see anything in the NRCoT that contradicts it, rather the opposite: clause 13.3 states that certain tickets may only be valid on trains travelling via a certain route or routes.

I also fail to see how it is an unfair contract term or in breach of consumer laws. Just because you consider that this particular condition is absurd does not necessarily mean that legally it would be counted as unfair. It would only be unfair if it unduly benefited the provider to the disadvantage of the consumer. Agreed that it limits what the consumer can do, but as I cannot see how it unduly benefits WY Metro I cannot see how it can be classed as unfair.

Likewise, just because it limits how the ticket can be used, I cannot see how WY Metro are in any way abusing their power by imposing it. Most ticket terms and conditions inherently limit what the passenger can and can't do: when the ticket can be used, what services and routes can be used, and so on. I fail to see how this particular condition is any different to any other ticket condition that limits what services a ticket can be used on.

It is true that people tend not to ignore unfair contractual terms, and instead pay more money; if this happens a lot then a class action lawsuit could be viable. Some train companies are skating on thin ice in this regard; mark my words!
Has a successful class-action lawsuit ever been brought against a train company for an unfair ticketing condition? I am not aware of any.
 

yorkie

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How does it contradict the NRCoT? I cannot see anything in the NRCoT that contradicts it, rather the opposite: clause 13.3 states that certain tickets may only be valid on trains travelling via a certain route or routes.
13.3 states:
13.3.If you are using a Zonal Ticket, which allows travel within a defined geographic area, you may travel on trains which take any route within the zone or zones shown on the Ticket
This absolutely cannot be over-ridden by any condition that purports to disallow customers using TPE to travel west of Huddersfield (but within the defined geographic area) using these tickets; any such condition would not be legally binding and would be considered an unfair term in my opinion.

If anyone wishes to disagree with my opinion, that is their right to do so, but it doesn't make them correct ;)
I also fail to see how it is an unfair contract term or in breach of consumer laws. Just because you consider that this particular condition is absurd does not necessarily mean that legally it would be counted as unfair. It would only be unfair if it unduly benefited the provider to the disadvantage of the consumer. Agreed that it limits what the consumer can do, but as I cannot see how it unduly benefits WY Metro I cannot see how it can be classed as unfair.
We will agree to disagree then.
Likewise, just because it limits how the ticket can be used, I cannot see how WY Metro are in any way abusing their power by imposing it. Most ticket terms and conditions inherently limit what the passenger can and can't do: when the ticket can be used, what services and routes can be used, and so on. I fail to see how this particular condition is any different to any other ticket condition that limits what services a ticket can be used on.
Again, we will agree to disagree.
Has a successful class-action lawsuit ever been brought against a train company for an unfair ticketing condition? I am not aware of any.
Not yet.
 

Harpers Tate

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I'd say the material point as regards WY and GM tickets is that they never meet; they never share validity at a common station. It makes no difference (IMO) whether the train calls en route at all; the two zones don't meet. Hence you would need to separately ticket the gap. I don't believe there is any offered latent validity between the last station within either zone, and the geographical boundary. Or, to put it otherwise, the extent of validity of these passes is determined not by county borders, but by specific railway stations.

In contrast to WY and SY zones, which do meet at various specified stations. There is another term in the SY validity that still throws into question validity on non-stop services, but that's a discussion for elsewhere.
 

yorkie

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I'd say the material point as regards WY and GM tickets is that they never meet; they never share validity at a common station. ...
But a Zones 4-6 Travelcard has no common station with a Zones 1-3 Travelcard on most lines.

Arguably the two products do meet at the border; it's just that there is no station at the border. The products are considered to meet when taking a bus.
 

Harpers Tate

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I'd suggest buses' validity is an irrelevance.
Reading the Conditions of Travel, we appear to need to answer these two questions (using and outboud trip from Leeds to Ilkley as an example)
- What is the last station at which a zone 1-3 travelcard is valid on, say the Leeds - Ilkely route?
- What is the first station at which a zone 4+ travelcard is valid on the same route?
Absent any specific T&C for WYPTE travelcards to the contrary that may override the Conditions of Travel in the passenger's favour, one would theoretically have to ticket Burley - Ben Rhydding separately.
I have not read WYPTE conditions to confirm whether any such condition exists.
I hugely doubt, though, that there is any such condition applicable to the crossover from WYPTE to GMPTE.
 
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