PHILIPE
Veteran Member
Perhaps the police should attend and remove anybody trespassing out of the way until it has passed
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More dangerous lineside behaviour around Flying Scotsman
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Perhaps the police should attend and remove anybody trespassing out of the way until it has passed
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tbtc
Veteran Member
As I've said on another thread, if the railway is fined a million quid because of someone sticking their head out of the window of a 442 (because the sticker warning people to stick their head out of the window wasn't large/distinct enough) then just imagine what is going to hit the fan when someone is seriously injured when trespassing due to the strange effect that Flying Scotsman has on them.
I can guarantee hat the railway won't be able to hide behind the kind of "well, it's their own stupid fault if they get hit by a train after climbing through a gap in the fence" excuse that some people on here have used.
As much as I hate to say it, this is an option which the industry should be looking at. Take FS away, see if the trespass continues around other locos. If it does, steam is the problem! If it doesn't, FS is the problem! Simple.
In America, they don't have fences alongside their railways and if someone gets onto their tracks and is killed it's their fault. We should adopt the same idea in my opinion.
Also, are all the people trespassing enthusiasts? Or are they "normals" who just follow the "Flying Scotsman" nameplate like sheep? I would love to put FS nameplates on, say, a Midland machine and set it off - see how many news outlets report FS speeding along the WCML!
-Peter
tbtc
Veteran Member
Maybe we should. But, in the meantime, we have to deal with the law as it is, and the courts as they will be when some numptie is injured/killed due to getting on the line.
If Dave gets squished by 4472 then the Judge won't be blaming Dave for taking a risk, they'll be asking how the railway let this happen, what preventative actions the railway took and why nothing was done after the several "incidents" and "potential incidents" that we've had over the past year.
I'm not saying what should/shouldn't happen, just saying that the incidents at Wandsworth and Tyne Yard show the kind of "justice" that the railway industry will get when something inevitably goes wrong - it's the old (Stelios Haji-Ioannou?) quote that “if you think health and safety is expensive, try having an accident”.
I agree. Get rid of steam off the mainline. It's a pain in the bum. People who want steam can go down the bluebell railway or somewhere. Steam trains look nice but they hold up service trains (you know, the ones people actually use for real life necessities), they encourage idiot behaviour from spotters, and they have a terrible safety record (Google West Coast Railways for list of previous incidents and suspensions or just look up the Wooton Bassett SPAD). Cowboys.
Steam on the mainline has it's place - there are ample secondary routes where it can ply it's trade causing few issues while creating a spectacle and helping the local economy - The Jacobite, North Warwickshire line, Settle and Carlisle and the Whitby branch (and previously the Cambrian Coast before Network Rail elected to hang the unwanted ERTMS trial millstone around it's neck) all seem to support regular steam ops without unfortunate events.
The problem comes with semi rural but important mainlines where people can access the tracks relatively easily and put themselves in harm's way or with cramped stations that aren't set up for the huge numbers that appear for this particular locomotive.
The problem comes with semi rural but important mainlines where people can access the tracks relatively easily and put themselves in harm's way or with cramped stations that aren't set up for the huge numbers that appear for this particular locomotive.
The voice of reason LowLevel, and absolutely spot on...
Llanigraham
On Moderation
Correct, the USA don't fence many of their lines but they also don't have Acts of Parliament that insisted on UK lines being fenced. You would need to amend so those Acts before you could do anything.
Does the forum currently have any evidence to present to this thread regards alleged issues / poor lineside behaviour / or otherwise arrising from this week past weekend?
It strikes me that people are all too happy to jump on a band wagon either for / against a topic.
My opinion is thus: Steam traction is not the sole issue - people's attitudes and thier resulting behaviours are a strong causating factor in disruption and safety of the line issues.
I suspect that there are many more arguments to be had between NR and the operators and the regulatory and enforcement authorities.
To change behaviour requires adjustment in attitude and education. Until the latter occurs, the former cannot be achieved giving sustainable outcomes.
It strikes me that people are all too happy to jump on a band wagon either for / against a topic.
My opinion is thus: Steam traction is not the sole issue - people's attitudes and thier resulting behaviours are a strong causating factor in disruption and safety of the line issues.
I suspect that there are many more arguments to be had between NR and the operators and the regulatory and enforcement authorities.
To change behaviour requires adjustment in attitude and education. Until the latter occurs, the former cannot be achieved giving sustainable outcomes.
Surely a bit daft to say "steam trains (in general) have a terrible safety record". Do you have any evidence to support that? Does that include the ones operated by DBC as well?
Agreed WCRC had some shocking incidents but that was over 3 years ago after which their SMS was completely overhauled and I believe closely monitored by ORR. Do you have any evidence that WCRC are (now) "cowboys"?
Speaking from personal experience during a lifelong railway career... steam trains bring out a lot of spotters and enthusiasts. Among those spotters and enthusiasts there are a number of completely moronic and irresponsible individuals who are a danger to themselves and others. I've seen it numerous times. Its like when they see a bit of steam they lose all common sense. Electric and diesel does not bring out such idiots, the casualties at the hands of electric and diesel trains tend to be trespassers and suicides. Of course steam kills less because it hardly runs- but when it does run it brings a whole army of reckless half-wits with it.
With this in mind and considering what I've heard about their drivers route knowledge and competency management, as well as its previous safety record and bans from mainline operation, I dont feel comfortable being around steam on the mainline.
From what I've been told by others in the industry and what's in the public domain about previous safety performance I feel uneasy about West Coast. I have no evidence to suggest they haven't improved in the last three years and I base my opinion of them mainly on the Wooton Bassett incident. I use the term cowboys in relation to what went on in that incident. Maybe they have improved. I hope so. But I wouldn't take the risk of getting on one of their trains to find out.
Ergh, to save anyone searching - here is the RAIB report for the Wottoon Bassett JnSPAD, March 7 2015.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/report-082016-signal-passed-at-danger-at-wootton-bassett-junction
Like any incident, in any industry, that results in an investigation, details emerge which wernt adequately known by the people managing the individuals involved - you cannot manage an employee every minute of every working day.
The train crew thought it safe to isolate the AWS - IT CLEARLY WASN'T (in this case) for the reasons discovered.
Cultures develop very quickly and need to redresed - that is what happened to WCR and no doubt other operators as well, as collective learning.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/report-082016-signal-passed-at-danger-at-wootton-bassett-junction
Like any incident, in any industry, that results in an investigation, details emerge which wernt adequately known by the people managing the individuals involved - you cannot manage an employee every minute of every working day.
The train crew thought it safe to isolate the AWS - IT CLEARLY WASN'T (in this case) for the reasons discovered.
Cultures develop very quickly and need to redresed - that is what happened to WCR and no doubt other operators as well, as collective learning.
Carry on the research. Industry unease about WCR is in no way just about the Wootton Bassett incident.
More importantly, by isolating the AWS they also isolated the TPWS. No train driver would think this safe unless there were SERIOUS issues with their competence.
The report also states that isolating the TPWS/AWS had "almost certainly become an accepted practice among some train crews on this locomotive."
So it wasn't just one crew. This points to not just the driver, but the entire crew being either grossly incompetent or grossly negligent. And not just that one crew either.
Bromley boy
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Indeed.
The Wooten Basset report mentions that the practice of isolating safety systems was common practice amongst WCR loco crews to avoid delays, and to prevent silver service charter train diners having their bowls of soup being shaken by inconvenient brake demands.
This is the kind of criminal negligence you could be sent to prison for, and yet had become an accepted practice within that operator!
I don't recall saying it was.
Care to point us in the direction to which will provide the evidence?
Did the crew member know that by isolating the AWS they rendered the TPWS 'ineffective'? Who knows. It may have been a learned action to resolve an inconvenient situation passed on by un-official training / instruction. Again, who knows.
Any train can run with AWS isolated, proving certain conditions are met and adheared to.
Bromley boy
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I’m afraid this post proves the adage that “a little knowledge is a dangerous thing”!
Anyone who works anywhere near a railway safety critical role will know that isolating safety systems for nefarious purposes, such as to avoid delays, is a complete no no, and something that can lead to criminal prosecution.
Doing this had become common practice amongst WCR crews. That goes way beyond an ordinary competency management issue.
Okay, to put this off-topic diversion to bed,
I did not say, not intend to infer, that the isolating of the AWS is either common practice (in ordinary working conditions or otherwise) - merely that it can be (and is) authorised in certain circumstances.
It was in response to the following quote (which didn't materialise in the post above)
For completeness, the driver involved was tried and convicted (by a guilty plea) in 2016 of Health and Safety related charges.
https://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2016/06/28-jail-sentence-for-west-coast.html
Yes, it may have been widespread behaviour amongst the operators employees, which I believe was one of the reasons for suspending it's licence.
The operator has since regained it's licence.
I struggle to locate any information since the licence was regained / reinstated to establish if safety concerns related to train crew practice / management continue.
Indeed, and the train wasn’t even running with the AWS isolated in the correct manner - it was running with another isolating cock opened, intended to allow the train to continue if the AWS *had* been isolated but in this case just preventing a brake demand being initiated by the AWS/TPWS which was still operational.
I’d like to think that things have changed somewhat since then though!
Bromley boy
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Not to take the conversation too far off topic, but it is an important point.
@bionic was clearly referring to the situation where the safety system was being improperly isolated, with no authorisation to do so. Either because the crew did not understand what they were doing or because they did understand it, but choose to ignore it, for the sake of operational convenience.
The fact that there are many situations where safety systems can quite properly be isolated is irrelevant and does not detract from the seriousness of an improper isolation.
I will not labour the point any further.
100% agree with the above.
And NEVER in passenger service. As soon as you touch those isolations you are out of service at the first available opportunity and observing rules about speeds and competent persons... not hurtling through red signals with a train full of people only seconds from a violent death.
Mountain Man
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Yes. There are photos on social media of people standing the wrong side of barriers at crossing
I'm sorry to continue this, but could you please provide reference material.
I am sure, Module TW5 of GERT8000,
Preparation and movement of trains: Defective or isolated vehicles and on-train equipment (Issue 9)
Doesn't specify that the unit has to be taken out of passenger service.
Module TW5 (Issue 9) - https://catalogues.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GERT8000-TW5 Iss 9.pdf
Any chance of linking to them, please?
Been reading this thread and the consensus seems to be..
Ban steam because some idiots stand too close to the track?
I was at Preston to see the Flying Scotsman on Saturday and everybody was well behaved, and there was a lot of people there. To ban the operation for safety reasons just spoils it for the 99.9%. The minority here are the problem - and they need dealing with. Getting rid of the FS is like going to change a car tyre and replacing the whole car instead.
Ban steam because some idiots stand too close to the track?
I was at Preston to see the Flying Scotsman on Saturday and everybody was well behaved, and there was a lot of people there. To ban the operation for safety reasons just spoils it for the 99.9%. The minority here are the problem - and they need dealing with. Getting rid of the FS is like going to change a car tyre and replacing the whole car instead.
Bromley boy
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That is only one experience at one location.
Unfortunately it doesn’t detract from the fact there have been several incidents recently where thousands of delay minutes have been incurred as a direct result of the actions of Scotsman spotters.
This thread probably needs to be looked at regarding the WCRC incident(s):
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...rom-18th-feb-2016-now-rescinded.127007/page-6
I think a lot of the answers to the questions raised in the last couple of days are in there.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...rom-18th-feb-2016-now-rescinded.127007/page-6
I think a lot of the answers to the questions raised in the last couple of days are in there.
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