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Should the Concessionary Fares Scheme be 24/7?

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Deerfold

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No I did not. Agreed that I used the word flexible, but nowhere did I use any phrase to the effect that bus companies HAVE to be flexible.

If you're not arguing that bus companies should be flexible then you've lost me.
What are you arguing?
 

Man of Kent

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Not that long; most schemes were flat-fare (West Yorkshire was 30p a ride) and local area only.
Indeed. The (Labour) government introduced a local, half-fare statutory scheme in 2001, converting it to a local free scheme in 2006, and then an England-wide scheme in 2008. In many shire counties, this was considerably more generous than what was previously available - as the example above cites, most metropolitan areas already offered or exceeded the half-fare offer.
 

Eyersey468

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Sorry, that should have said "There were still bus passes". And for many years they were free.

Do many holders make use of the nationwide aspect of their passes?
With us it tends to be neighbouring council passes we see but we do sometimes get others.
 

Busaholic

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With us it tends to be neighbouring council passes we see but we do sometimes get others.
The idea that there are gallivanting millionaire pensioners living the high life (lol) on long, free bus rides to exotic places like Scarborough or Skegness, preventing good, honest fare-paying passengers from boarding is a tiresome myth got up by people who have a right wing political agenda, it would appear. Funny that on Bob Hind's (and others) myriad journeys recounted in 'Buses' magazine over the years to all parts of the U.K. he's never come across these people, for the simple reason they do not exist, unless a couple of paqrticularly vexatious UKIP branch chairmen are organising such outings.
 

Deerfold

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The idea that there are gallivanting millionaire pensioners living the high life (lol) on long, free bus rides to exotic places like Scarborough or Skegness, preventing good, honest fare-paying passengers from boarding is a tiresome myth got up by people who have a right wing political agenda, it would appear. Funny that on Bob Hind's (and others) myriad journeys recounted in 'Buses' magazine over the years to all parts of the U.K. he's never come across these people, for the simple reason they do not exist, unless a couple of particularly vexatious UKIP branch chairmen are organising such outings.

I think there can be an issue with "tourist" destinations - but I see this as a problem with the way the scheme is funded, not a fault of the scheme itself.

My dad uses buses far more on holiday than when he's at home - but that's because he struggles to get to and from his local bus stop.
 

Typhoon

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I think there can be an issue with "tourist" destinations - but I see this as a problem with the way the scheme is funded, not a fault of the scheme itself.
I think you are right, but a lot of pensioners visit such places in May, June, September, October simply because that is when they can get decent deals from hotels, holiday camps or other. They try and avoid the school summer holidays not only because it is cheaper but also because it is quieter. They often extend the visiting season for these places, and, most of all, spend money to help often struggling destinations.

Queues of twirlies may be a problem in some parts, in Kent our buses are sometimes (over) full of visiting teenage groups from Europe at this time of year. Not a problem, they are buying stuff even if it is only junk food, plastic Union Flags and models of Routemaster buses. Visitors are the lifeblood of some towns, they need encouraging.
 

Belperpete

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If you're not arguing that bus companies should be flexible then you've lost me.
What are you arguing?
I am not arguing that anybody should be doing anything. I just pointed out what currently happens, and the obvious benefits to everyone. It is you that seem determined to have an argument, repeatedly mis-representing me.
 

Deerfold

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I am not arguing that anybody should be doing anything. I just pointed out what currently happens, and the obvious benefits to everyone. It is you that seem determined to have an argument, repeatedly mis-representing me.

I'm really not trying to misrepresent you. I was just pointing out why councils might object if people were being carried *because they have a pass* earlier than the council specifies. If your local buses really waves people on, pass or no pass, I suspect the company may have other problems.
 

Sweetjesus

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It should be made 24/7 for disabled workers. Whether having to buy for public transport or not can make a big difference as to whether they'll work or not.

Not only that, a lot of disabled workers have to travel further than usual on average to work just because it's one of a few jobs they can do, or their workplace is more accommodating.

Cynic in me tells me the only reason concessionary bus schemes exist is that they're a form of subsidy for bus operators, nothing about altruism.
 

RustySpoons

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It should be made 24/7 for disabled workers. Whether having to buy for public transport or not can make a big difference as to whether they'll work or not.

Not only that, a lot of disabled workers have to travel further than usual on average to work just because it's one of a few jobs they can do, or their workplace is more accommodating.

Cynic in me tells me the only reason concessionary bus schemes exist is that they're a form of subsidy for bus operators, nothing about altruism.

Bus companies often lose out on concessionary pass use.
 

Sweetjesus

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Bus companies often lose out on concessionary pass use.
If you're saying it costs more per passenger than what councils would pay out then that can be true.

But the cost per passenger goes down as more passengers use the bus up to the certain point.

In nearly all cases, it would be advantageous to take on concessionary pass holders. The only a drawback would be that they prevent use of full fare paying passengers which is unlikely even during a rush hour period.
 

Dai Corner

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If you're saying it costs more per passenger than what councils would pay out then that can be true.

But the cost per passenger goes down as more passengers use the bus up to the certain point.

In nearly all cases, it would be advantageous to take on concessionary pass holders. The only a drawback would be that they prevent use of full fare paying passengers which is unlikely even during a rush hour period.

Theoretically, the reimbursement is set at a rate that results in the operator being no better and no worse off as a result of the concessionary passes.
 

Deerfold

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If you're saying it costs more per passenger than what councils would pay out then that can be true.

But the cost per passenger goes down as more passengers use the bus up to the certain point.

In nearly all cases, it would be advantageous to take on concessionary pass holders. The only a drawback would be that they prevent use of full fare paying passengers which is unlikely even during a rush hour period.

Harrogate and District withdrew their hourly X54 Harrogate to York some years ago, citing that as it was popular with pass holders they were getting full buses but not enough revenue to cover the driver's wage.
 

Eyersey468

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There was a case in Wales a few years ago of a long distance route where the full adult return fare was £15 and the rate the company was getting for pass holders was about £10 return which they said was reasonable, however the council said it was costing too much so changed the formula so instead of £10 return the rate fell to less than £1.00 return. The consequence of that was the service wasn't viable any more and got withdrawn.
 

Mwanesh

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It should be made 24/7 for disabled workers. Whether having to buy for public transport or not can make a big difference as to whether they'll work or not.

Not only that, a lot of disabled workers have to travel further than usual on average to work just because it's one of a few jobs they can do, or their workplace is more accommodating.

Cynic in me tells me the only reason concessionary bus schemes exist is that they're a form of subsidy for bus operators, nothing about altruism.
I will disagree with you its not a subsidy. I can give you an example on the Red Arrow between Derby and Nottingham the councils refused to pay for concession pass holders saying it was a premium service. Passes are not valid on the service. There is no blanket payment from councils. You only get paid for the number of passes used.
 

Meole

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Wales to change free travel on buses and some trains to 67 from 60 on cost grounds.
 

PeterC

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Harrogate and District withdrew their hourly X54 Harrogate to York some years ago, citing that as it was popular with pass holders they were getting full buses but not enough revenue to cover the driver's wage.
Presumably reimbursement was calculated on the basis that usage would be minimal if full fare was charged. That sounds within the spirit of the scheme to me.

With regard to the Welsh scheme the posts on the BBC website show what a political minefield the schemes are. Not helped by the failure of people to actually read beyond the headlines, a ridiculous number of posts claimed that it affected pensioners despite the scheme simply being brought into line with the state pension age as happens in England already.
 

riceuten

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I understand Cornwall Council allow the use of Concessionary passes at any time of the day and not just during specific times and obviously I'm aware that in Wales and Scotland Concessionary passes are valid 24/7

Do you think British Concessionary passes should be required to be valid for travel at all times or do you think 24/7 free travel should continue to be discretionary?

It depends on who is paying, and who you ask, and what the effect on passengers would be.

Local government is not properly reimbursed for the cost of the scheme, and the operators are paid a pittance, but woe betide any government who wanted to substantially alter the scheme to make it more economic. The political cost would be enormous.
 

Busaholic

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It depends on who is paying, and who you ask, and what the effect on passengers would be.

Local government is not properly reimbursed for the cost of the scheme, and the operators are paid a pittance, but woe betide any government who wanted to substantially alter the scheme to make it more economic. The political cost would be enormous.
Being resident in Cornwall and conversant with the available bus services, my estimate of the extra services available on a weekly basis to concessionary pass holders would be somewhere between 12 and 18%. As it's unlikely too many of the elderly would choose to travel with the kids going to school, realistically the only impact might be on buses between 8.30 and 9.30 a.m., so I'd be surprised if reimbursements as a result of the change would increase by as much as 10% and many of the earlier journeys would only cancel out ones that used to be made after 9.30.
 

jkkne

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It should be made 24/7 for disabled workers. Whether having to buy for public transport or not can make a big difference as to whether they'll work or not.

Not only that, a lot of disabled workers have to travel further than usual on average to work just because it's one of a few jobs they can do, or their workplace is more accommodating.

Cynic in me tells me the only reason concessionary bus schemes exist is that they're a form of subsidy for bus operators, nothing about altruism.

Up here in Nexus land (Tyne and Wear) disabled passes are 24/7 if you meet the following criteria

If you qualify under one of the above categories and attend college or are in paid employment for at least 15 hours a week, you can apply for an All Day Concessionary Travel Pass, which can be used at any time

They aren’t valid on night buses here but then normal full fare paying passes aren’t either.

I’m genuinely shocked if this isn’t the case elsewhere.
 

Dai Corner

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It depends on who is paying, and who you ask, and what the effect on passengers would be.

Local government is not properly reimbursed for the cost of the scheme, and the operators are paid a pittance, but woe betide any government who wanted to substantially alter the scheme to make it more economic. The political cost would be enormous.

The Welsh Government looks set to find out how big the political cost will be. I've started a new thread to discuss this.

Welsh Government to Revise Concessionary Pass Scheme
 

Sweetjesus

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There was a case in Wales a few years ago of a long distance route where the full adult return fare was £15 and the rate the company was getting for pass holders was about £10 return which they said was reasonable, however the council said it was costing too much so changed the formula so instead of £10 return the rate fell to less than £1.00 return. The consequence of that was the service wasn't viable any more and got withdrawn.

Concessionary pass isn't meant to keep a unviable bus service alive.

The compensation for bus operators isn't enough to sustain a bus service that wouldn't otherwise exist without full fare paying passengers. It was meant as a subsidy that keeps a bus service that's slightly unprofitable or slightly profitable more profitable.

I will disagree with you its not a subsidy. I can give you an example on the Red Arrow between Derby and Nottingham the councils refused to pay for concession pass holders saying it was a premium service. Passes are not valid on the service. There is no blanket payment from councils. You only get paid for the number of passes used.
The fact there is no blanket payment doesn't mean it's not a subsidy. Subsidy can even be paid out in other methods that's not cash - for example, an investment in infrastructure.
 

mmh

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a ridiculous number of posts claimed that it affected pensioners despite the scheme simply being brought into line with the state pension age as happens in England already.

"Bringing it into line with what happens in England" is not a strong argument to use in Wales.
 

Qwerty133

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It should be made 24/7 for disabled workers. Whether having to buy for public transport or not can make a big difference as to whether they'll work or not.

Not only that, a lot of disabled workers have to travel further than usual on average to work just because it's one of a few jobs they can do, or their workplace is more accommodating.

Cynic in me tells me the only reason concessionary bus schemes exist is that they're a form of subsidy for bus operators, nothing about altruism.
Disabled workers are paid the same as their colleagues who (in the vast majority of circumstances) have to pay to travel on the bus to get to work so really there is absolutely no reason why those in paid employment should be entitled to free travel 24/7. If any job fails to pay sufficient wages for bus fares to be viably paid out them the job should not exist at its current wages and therefore the need to pay bus fare shouldn't make any difference as to whether disabled people are able to work (and in fact by claiming otherwise you are suggesting that many disabled people who are physically and mentally capable of holding down a job would choose not to if they had to pay the usual costs of having such a job and would instead get benefits to which anyone capable of work (and many who are not) have very little chance of receiving under the current regime.
 

Sweetjesus

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Disabled workers are paid the same as their colleagues who (in the vast majority of circumstances) have to pay to travel on the bus to get to work so really there is absolutely no reason why those in paid employment should be entitled to free travel 24/7. If any job fails to pay sufficient wages for bus fares to be viably paid out them the job should not exist at its current wages and therefore the need to pay bus fare shouldn't make any difference as to whether disabled people are able to work (and in fact by claiming otherwise you are suggesting that many disabled people who are physically and mentally capable of holding down a job would choose not to if they had to pay the usual costs of having such a job and would instead get benefits to which anyone capable of work (and many who are not) have very little chance of receiving under the current regime.

At no point did I mention about the difference in wages for disabled workers because that would be obviously illegal in almost all circumstances - this was left unmentioned with the assumption that all readers would know this fact. I've already provided one reason why disabled workers should be entitled to 24/7 transport. There are plenty more examples - another reason is having to travel further to an educational establishment that is more accessible is another example.

So, even if disabled colleagues are paid the same as their non-disabled colleagues, on the average, they'll still need to travel further. Also, the fact the 'glass ceiling' absolutely exists for disabled workers, so there won't be always an equal opportunity for promotion for disabled workers.

Schemes such as DLA, PIP, concessionary pass scheme, etc was designed to increase quality of life in general for the disabled. It was not designed to compensate every little thing that a disabled worker cannot do whilst their non-disabled counterpart can.

Regarding to disabled people choosing to not work even they are physically capable of working - it is still the case even with the crackdowns by Tory government. It should be stated that most of crackdowns by Tory government is in relation to how much is paid out and making the process more difficult.

They have not made significant changes as to their eligibility criteria - so one is still able to get the same benefits as before, only that they have to work more for it and they are unlikely to receive as much as they did before.

Disability is an incredibly complex topic. It is far harder to determine who is able to work and who is not. Even if one can determine that one has to work, they still need a job which is not always easy to find due to discrimination being commonplace amongst employers.

In the end, it is far cheaper, easier and better for everyone involved if incentives are given to the disabled people to find a job instead of making their lives difficult.
 

matt_world2004

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IIRC TfL get about £1.05 per ENCTS pass/Freedom pass useage on a bus. I believe they shoulder the cost for the 60+ oyster. The average bus fare in London when factoring concessionary and free travel alongside travelcard and bus pass reinbursementis about 66. Per bus trip TfL get less money from travelcards than they do from freedom/ ENCTS passes but more money overall from travelcards once travel on TfL contracted rail services is taken into account.
 
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