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More dangerous lineside behaviour around Flying Scotsman

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Bromley boy

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I am intreiged to know though how NR are able to ban any traction, let alone just steam.
What actual grounding / procedure are they able to employ?
It may have been discussed previously in which case my apologies.

I’m not familiar with the minutiae of how they go about it but from the below article (dating from 2011), and combined with the posts upthread, it would appear that NR have swingeing powers to ban steam traction from routes as they see fit (the ban referred to below has presumably since been lifted).

This power appears to be subject to a requirement of proportionality/right of appeal to the ORR, but it certainly seems well within the remit of NR to impose bans as they see fit in the first instance.

http://www.rail.co.uk/rail-news/2011/network-rail-unilaterally-bans-weekday-steam/

Network Rail Unilaterally Bans Weekday Steam on the East Coast Main Line
Following the fires in the Doncaster area on September 2 caused by former Southern Railway ‘King Arthur’ No. 30777 Sir Lamiel, Network Rail (NR) has taken draconian action and banned all steam trains on the East Coast Main Line on weekdays with immediate effect.
 
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6Gman

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Which, to me, is as unacceptable as a blanket ban.
I'll say this, for the last time, people need to be educated - if that's by prosecutions or by onsite staff, so beit. Hopefully it won't take a life changing or ending incident.

What form of education will serve to persuade those who stand inside the fence or lean over platform edges to change their behaviour?
 

800002

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I’m not familiar with the minutiae of how they go about it but from the below article (dating from 2011), and combined with the posts upthread, it would appear that NR have swingeing powers to ban steam traction from routes as they see fit (the ban referred to below has presumably since been lifted).

This power appears to be subject to a requirement of proportionality/right of appeal to the ORR, but it certainly seems well within the remit of NR to impose bans as they see fit in the first instance.

http://www.rail.co.uk/rail-news/2011/network-rail-unilaterally-bans-weekday-steam/

That's an informative article, thank you.
I am unable to findout how long it was in effect for though. Am still looking for what i need though.

I find it rather suspect that it was only a weekday ban.
I'll get back to you if/when I locate any relevant material. (not finished searching this thread yet)!
 

6Gman

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That's an informative article, thank you.
I am unable to findout how long it was in effect for though. Am still looking for what i need though.

I find it rather suspect that it was only a weekday ban.
I'll get back to you if/when I locate any relevant material. (not finished searching this thread yet)!

I assume it was a weekday ban (Mon-Fri or Mon-Sat?) because any disruption would be less significant at the weekend.

If NR could demonstrate that a particular access agreement (in this case the use of Flying Scotsman) led to an unacceptable impact on other services then I suspect the ORR would permit the withdrawal of access.
 

Bromley boy

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That's an informative article, thank you.
I am unable to findout how long it was in effect for though. Am still looking for what i need though.

I find it rather suspect that it was only a weekday ban.
I'll get back to you if/when I locate any relevant material. (not finished searching this thread yet)!

What exactly are you looking for?

I know for a fact that several posters on this thread work for NR, from various online and offline conversations I’ve had over several years on this forum. I will not be identifying them! But it’s pretty obvious who they are from reading their posts.

They have said that a ban is possible, indeed likely, if things continue as they are.

The article I linked to above is in the public domain and demonstrates that bans have been handed down by NR previously, as do many other sources, if you do a quick google search on the subject.

I’m at a loss as to what more can be said to convince you that NR have the power to ban kettles from the mainline.
 

6Gman

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The article I linked to above is in the public domain and demonstrates that bans have been handed down by NR previously, as do many other sources, if you do a quick google search on the subject.

I’m at a loss as to what more can be said to convince you that NR have the power to ban kettles from the mainline.

And not just "kettles". Presumably if a particular type of loco or rolling stock had an adverse impact (e.g. by buggering up {technical term} the signalling system or spreading the track) its right to use the system could be withdrawn.
 

Bromley boy

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And not just "kettles". Presumably if a particular type of loco or rolling stock had an adverse impact (e.g. by buggering up {technical term} the signalling system or spreading the track) its right to use the system could be withdrawn.

Absolutely.

Even preserved diesel/electric locos need a NR mandated “fitness to run” test before being dragged on the mainline.

Which is why they are often trucked from location to location!
 

800002

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What exactly are you looking for?
Evidence, in writing, officially stating the parameters in which a ban can be lawfully implimented.

The article I linked to above is in the public domain and demonstrates that bans have been handed down by NR previously, as do many other sources, if you do a quick google search on the subject.
It also raised unanswered questions with regards to the legality of the ban imposed.

I’m at a loss as to what more can be said to convince you that NR have the power to ban kettles from the mainline.
I generally take what people say with a pinch of salt when what they say isnt backed up with proof.

Don't say anything - show me.
 

Adsy125

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I notice that the trespassing issues continue to be prevalent in certain areas of the country, but not really others. Surely a network ban would be overkill when many places have been visited without incident?
 

Bromley boy

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Evidence, in writing, officially stating the parameters in which a ban can be lawfully implimented.


It also raised unanswered questions with regards to the legality of the ban imposed.


I generally take what people say with a pinch of salt when what they say isnt backed up with proof.

Don't say anything - show me.

With respect, if you want all the answers, you need to research them for yourself.

What’s that saying about taking horses to water?

I’m out :D.
 

Llanigraham

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I notice that the trespassing issues continue to be prevalent in certain areas of the country, but not really others. Surely a network ban would be overkill when many places have been visited without incident?

And if it can't run in one area, don't you think that some people will just travel and cause a problem where it does?
 

Mountain Man

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I notice that the trespassing issues continue to be prevalent in certain areas of the country, but not really others. Surely a network ban would be overkill when many places have been visited without incident?
In which areas hasn't it been an issue?
 

Timrud

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Pleasing to hear the legislation is in place to get a ban in place quickly - hopefully before somebody dies.
 

farleigh

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And it only takes stupid behaviour by the 0.1% to incur thousands of delay minutes, even without any injuries or fatalities.



At the end of the day it doesn’t matter what you, or I, or most others posting on this thread think.

There are posts upthread from people who either work for Network Rail or otherwise have “inside knowledge”. They have stated that a ban is likely to be forthcoming if these incidents continue.

28 pages of righteous indignation and irrelevant comparisons to football matches and cyclists will not be changing that!
Pure uninformed waffle - a ban will not be forthcoming
 

Killingworth

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Since first reading this thread the desire to ban older trains has gathered steam. The recent cases where two individuals lost their lives by putting their heads out of windows of moving trains shows it's not just steam trains that pose dangers, or enthusiasts on platforms and the lineside.

The heritage rail movement looks likely to be severely hit by having to make very costly alterations to coaching stock to be able to continue any operations, be they steam hauled or anything else.

As we move forward in time practices that seemed normal become unacceptable. Flying Scotsman was drawing crowds as long ago as 1978. I was on that platform. Many others were not. Hard hats were unusual then, hi viz jackets too.

Only this last week I've seen passengers standing closer to live platform edges than I'd wish to do while waiting for normal modern trains. I can understand how every one is potentially a casualty. There are far more potential accidents out there than with trains hauled by one locomotive, or groups of locos. Installing platform edge doors is an ideal that is totally impractical at most stations, but encouraging all to stand well back will be a good start. Who knows, if that can be accepted normal practice current trespassers elsewhere may also cotton on. The FS is the very conspicuous tip of an iceberg of rail danger.

The world has moved on since the day the Liverpool and Manchester Railway was opened on 15th September 1830 and Huskisson became the first to die in a lineside accident - see from Wikipedia.

Huskisson had been diagnosed with strangury, a tender inflammation of the kidneys. He had undergone surgery, and had been advised by Royal doctor William George Maton to cancel all forthcoming appointments, which included the opening of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway. Huskisson chose to ignore this advice, believing the opening event too important to cancel. He rode down the line in a special train constructed for the Duke of Wellington and his guests and dignitaries, pulled by the locomotive Northumbrian which was driven by George Stephenson himself. This train was the only train on the south track, the other seven were in procession on the northern track.[3] At Parkside railway station, near the midpoint of the line, the locomotives made a scheduled stop to take on water. Although the company had implicitly warned passengers to remain on the trains while this took place, around fifty of the dignitaries on board alighted when the Duke of Wellington's special train stopped. One of those who got off was Huskisson, who approached the Duke to take this opportunity to repair their relationship after a great falling out, which resulted in Huskisson leaving the government, and shook his hand.

At this time the train being pulled by Rocket approached on the other line. Rocket was being driven by Joseph Locke, George Stephenson's assistant and future eminent engineer in his own rights. A shout went up, "An engine is approaching. Take care, gentlemen!" The other disembarked passengers either climbed back into their seats, or stepped over the northern line and completely out of the way. A third option was available, to stand with your back to the stationary coaches, as there was a four-foot gap between the lines, and even though the Duke's private carriage was wider than a then-standard carriage, it would have still been possible to stand between the stationary train and the travelling train and remain safe. However, what unfolded was a calamitous series of events. Huskisson was known to be clumsy, and had endured a long list of problems from his regular trips and falls; he had twice broken his arm and never fully recovered the use of it. Added to this, he was only a few weeks post surgery and was present against his doctor's advice.[3]

On realising his danger he panicked and made two attempts to cross the other line, but changed his mind and returned to the Duke's carriage. At this point Joseph Locke became aware and threw Rocket into reverse, but it would have taken 10 seconds to have any effect. Huskisson then panicked that the gap between the two trains was not big enough and so tried to clamber into the Duke's carriage. However, the carriage door had not been latched, and so it slowly swung open leaving him hanging directly in the path of the oncoming Rocket, which hit the door, throwing Huskisson onto the tracks in front of the train.[4][5] His leg was horrifically mangled by the locomotive.

A door was ripped from a railway building and Huskisson was placed on it, George Stephenson uncoupled the Northumbrian from the Duke's train and the mortally wounded MP was placed in a small carriage that had been occupied by a band, and with a small group of friends they set off to the vicarage at Eccles, and a doctor was called. A tourniquet had been applied, but it was not deemed possible to do a field amputation, so he was made comfortable with the assistance of the vicar's wife Emma Blackburne, whose ‘activity, sense & conduct’ were mentioned in The Manchester Courier and The Times and remembered with gratitude by Huskisson's widow Emily Milbanke who arrived at the vicarage from Liverpool.[6] Huskisson was able to make his will and at nine in the evening, he finally succumbed to his injury.[3]

The death and funeral of Huskisson caused the opening of the railway to be widely reported, and people around the world became aware for the first time that cheap and rapid long-distance transport was now possible – and could be dangerous.
 

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jon0844

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When I was at a station that I didn't know had the Flying Scotsman passing through (it soon became pretty obvious from all the people with cameras near the edge of the platform), I noted the number of people breathing in the steam and getting incredibly euphoric. Maybe that's part of the need to be so close to the train, when you can easily watch, photograph or film from a safe distance.

You wouldn't therefore get that with electric or diesel.

As I've also said, the operator has every reason to play down the risks and not report incidents. Perhaps it should have to allow front facing camera footage to be independently viewed after each journey to see just how widespread the problem is. Rail staff can't be everywhere so the problem has to be worse than what we see on social media.
 

bramling

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Pure uninformed waffle - a ban will not be forthcoming

Do you *really* think that a ban hasn't been considered? ORR were certainly tweeting out recently that they were considering a ban.

Personally I don't think there's appetite for it, indeed there's enthusiasts within Network Rail like Peter Hendy who have a proven track record of supporting the operation of special trains. However the flip side of the coin is they're not going to keep on tolerating the delay minutes, and if something bad does happen then it really will be "game over". London Underground banned heritage trains a few years ago, and that was due to a messup that was essentially their own fault, so there's precedent for it.

I don't want to see it, however it will happen if this carries on.
 

blackfive460

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London Underground banned heritage trains a few years ago...

Really?

What was that I saw on the District Line a few weeks ago then?

Back On Topic...

Situations similar to this occur in many walks of life and it is down to those responsible; companies, government bodies, even individuals, to take a view of the perceived risks to them and act accordingly.

We all have individual views but in this and other similar situations, we are not the ones who have to take responsibility. Arguing here will do nothing more than raise blood pressure, leave it to those who have to take responsibility if those perceived risks become reality.
 

Adsy125

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And if it can't run in one area, don't you think that some people will just travel and cause a problem where it does?
I think many of those causing problems haven’t travelled every other time it’s run somewhere else, so I so no reason that they would want to travel potentially a long way, to see her.
In which areas hasn't it been an issue?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the South West, (South East) and Scotland haven’t had issues that I’m aware of.
 

ainsworth74

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We appearing to be steaming in quite significant circles at the moment and have got two camps (will/could be banned vs never will be banned) and sub-camps within them that I doubt are going to shift position significantly after the exchange of dozens of posts on the subject. Therefore this thread is now locked as there doesn't appear to be very much at all left to add.

If anyone has anything substantial and new to add to the discussion please feel free to report this post and consideration will be given to re-opening for further discussion. If the ORR/Network Rail/etc take steps to ban steam or restrict Flying Scotsman or similar then please feel free to post as such in a new thread with a suitable link and quote to the news.

Otherwise thank you to all who have taken part in a lively debate but it is time to draw it to a close.
 
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