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Delay Repay with Virgin / when is a return journey not a return journey

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Mark Coley

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It seems topical to post today given the media reports today saying people are not claiming when trains are late...

I travelled with Virgin Trains on 15th June 2019 from Wilmslow to Euston. The train, along with all others, was stopped at Milton Keynes and we all had to get off and we spent several hours there (having been told firstly taxis would take us to London, then buses). The line reopened a few hours later.

I'd used Virgin Trains' website the night before to get the tickets to and from London, fixing my outward train (early) then having an off-peak return to come back later that day. There was a single transaction, the return ticket was conditional on being accompanied by an outward advance.

I put in a Delay Repay claim on the way home and a few days later got an automatic refund of the cost of the outward leg only. Then I got an e-mail a few days later asking if I'd put in a duplicate claim as a Delay Repay had already been processed. I replied saying I had a return journey and hadn't been refunded correctly. However, I've been told I had two singles and they don't count as a return journey, even though I bought the journey as a return journey, I started in Wilmslow and returned to Wilmslow, the website let me chose outward and return trains (I sent screen shots to Virgin to show them how their booking engine works), the conditions on the off-peak return ticket say it has to be bought as part of a return journey. However Virgin will have none of it and say I have two singles. I said the whole point of their compensation seems to be to compensate the journey made and I can't believe their management would have tried to argue away their choice to give compensation over and above the national terms and conditions, which I think Virgin's compensation is. I said as far as I was concerned I'd bought a return journey and what Virgin chose to print on the tickets was a matter for Virgin. I had tried to explain it would be impossible the buy the tickets I bought in two separate transactions (as one was conditional on the other) so it had to be a return journey.

Has anyone had any success in sorting this sort of issue out? It seems Virgin are playing with words over what is a single and what isn't. A single that is tied to another single, that has to take you back to your origin station seems very much like a return journey to me, with my simple understanding...

Mark.
 
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furlong

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Keep escalating the matter until they give in? The parameters for Delay Repay schemes have not been published, so you should indeed argue your case based solely on the limited publicly-available information - quote it directly - and then take the matter to the Rail Ombudsman if need be.
 

furlong

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So I would set out the argument once again in succinct terms, excluding irrelevancies and comments/opinions, quoting directly from whatever documentation the company has issued (leaflet, website) which you believe supports your case, send to a senior management contact with a cover note asking either for the compensation to be paid (plus something extra to compensate you for your time spent dealing with the matter) or a letter of deadlock to be issued so you can ask the ombudsman for a ruling on the matter.
 

30907

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I assume the return journey was punctual?
I'm sorry to disagree, but I don't see that an Off Peak Single (Online) differs from an Advance Single in this respect.
The VT website wording for the ticket type is

This ticket can only be bought as part of a return journey, and in conjunction with either an Advance ticket, or Anytime ticket. If two online Off-Peak Single (Online) tickets are bought as part of a return ticket, it will then become an Off-peak return ticket.

To my mind, the second sentence implies that the Advance plus Off Peak Single Online combination is not a return ticket. The combination simply allows you to book the Off Peak Single at half price.
 

Mark Coley

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I think my point is that they are playing with words. "This ticket can only be bought as part of a return journey" seems clear to me I booked a return journey. If it is only a return ticket itself that gives a certain type of refund, does it need 'return' written on the ticket itself? What happens if it is the 'outward' part of the journey that is delayed? Is an 'outward' ticket a single, a return or part of a return journey? It clearly isn't a return ticket as it is an outward ticket! If it forms part of a return journey then so does what I purchased!
 

Bletchleyite

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I think VT are correct - it depends on what the ticket is. If one ticket is made of two portions, it's a return ticket (e.g. SOR, SVR etc). If it's two tickets of one portion each, then they are single tickets.

Having said that, I've long thought this aspect of Delay Repay was pretty silly. If they want a higher level for 2+ hour delays (and they are quite rare, I think I've only claimed for one once or maybe twice), why not something like 120% of the relevant portion?
 

Mark Coley

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If it's two tickets of one portion each, then they are single tickets.

The tickets I bought are tied to each other though. You couldn't buy them independently. If seeking a refund, for example, they both had to be surrendered unused I think. Surely this necessarily makes them a pair?
 

Bletchleyite

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The tickets I bought are tied to each other though. You couldn't buy them independently. If seeking a refund, for example, they both had to be surrendered unused I think. Surely this necessarily makes them a pair?

They may be single tickets sold under specified conditions, but they are not a return ticket.

You're not quite correct on refunds, either - the Off Peak Single (Online) is refundable less £10 and you do not need to surrender the Advance. The Advance is not refundable anyway.

It's a technicality, but an important one. If you want to shift to a common-law "man on the Clapham omnibus" type interpretation you'd have to appeal to Customer Services' discretion or take it to Court (at your own risk of course).
 
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AlterEgo

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I think my point is that they are playing with words. "This ticket can only be bought as part of a return journey" seems clear to me I booked a return journey. If it is only a return ticket itself that gives a certain type of refund, does it need 'return' written on the ticket itself? What happens if it is the 'outward' part of the journey that is delayed? Is an 'outward' ticket a single, a return or part of a return journey? It clearly isn't a return ticket as it is an outward ticket! If it forms part of a return journey then so does what I purchased!

VT's charter makes it clear that they do not compensate for a return "journey", but rather your ticket.

A return ticket is one ticket which allows both an outward journey and a return one - this is common parlance. Off Peak Returns and Anytime Returns are both examples of return tickets. An Off Peak Single is not - even one where you get a half price discount for buying it in conjunction with another ticket. You may have been making a return journey, but you did not have a return ticket.

I think this is one to take on the chin - Delay Repay is already very generous.
 

Mark Coley

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You're not quite correct on refunds, either - the Off Peak Single (Online) is refundable less £10 and you do not need to surrender the Advance. The Advance is not refundable anyway.

The conditions on the off peak return portion had this written:

"REFUNDS
This ticket is only valid as part of a return journey. If the other portion of the return journey is cancelled, this ticket(Off-Peak Single (Online)) must be cancelled at the same time A GBP 10.00 administration fee will apply for any refund."

Perhaps what is written is impossible if you can't get a refund on an advance?
 

Bletchleyite

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The conditions on the off peak return portion had this written:

"REFUNDS
This ticket is only valid as part of a return journey. If the other portion of the return journey is cancelled, this ticket(Off-Peak Single (Online)) must be cancelled at the same time A GBP 10.00 administration fee will apply for any refund."

Perhaps what is written is impossible if you can't get a refund on an advance?

"If she weighs the same as a duck..."

I think you're reading one way and assuming the other way applies. You can refund the Off Peak Single (Online) without refunding the other bit (and that T&C doesn't say otherwise), you can't do vice versa, the reason for this is to stop you buying it with an Anytime Single as the other half then refunding that, ending up with it on its own.

(If you want one "on its own" you can book one as the outward and go months out to find the cheapest Advance to book as the return then bin it...)

It doesn't make it a return ticket, it is still a single ticket with specified restrictions on sale.
 

AlterEgo

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The conditions on the off peak return portion had this written:

"REFUNDS
This ticket is only valid as part of a return journey. If the other portion of the return journey is cancelled, this ticket(Off-Peak Single (Online)) must be cancelled at the same time A GBP 10.00 administration fee will apply for any refund."

Perhaps what is written is impossible if you can't get a refund on an advance?

Advances can be refunded in specific circumstances, such as a variance in contract (timetable change), gesture of goodwill, or as part of the ticket exchange process when changing your journey.

As can be clearly inferred from the way the condition is written, there are two separate tickets.

I would be surprised if the Ombudsman found in your favour (should it get that far) - they seem to primarily view their role as strictly interpreting rules and ensuring TOCs have not contravened the rules, rather than looking at the spirit of the rules.

EDIT: I hope my replies don't come across as unsympathetic - forums aren't always the best places to try to convey sympathy!
 

furlong

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It's an important point and should be pursued to the Ombudsman if necessary. If it's rejected there, then it needs taking up with the government, through the press if necessary. It might be argued that, in effect, the train company is using a loophole to reduce its liability under Delay Repay by treating return journeys as separate single journeys and if the Ombudsman confirms that the current rules for Delay Repay permit that, then the government may need to act to close that loophole - two advance singles should similarly be treated as a return for the purposes of compensation. What matters to the consumer is that they have booked a return journey, not that the industry has happened to choose to issue it as two separate single tickets.
 

furlong

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Where in the booking process did it warn you that, if you proceeded with this particular selection you were now booking two separate journeys instead of the return journey you originally specified and your rights to compensation in the event of a serious delay would be diminished?
 

yorkie

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I don't see why they are. It's quite obvious what a single and a return ticket are.
Yes but as we've established from previous posts, some people think that companies like Virgin can decide to implement terms on a whim without consideration of relevant laws.

I am sorry if this sounds grumpy but I am fed up of people assuming TOCs can decide T&Cs without such consideration and what they say goes. I can see the day that a TOC gets a nasty shock for thinking they are above the law. Why do people pander to these preposterous concepts?!

If you are telling me this is not a return journey then quite frankly it's not correct, and if the matter went to court, and the relevant arguments were made, Virgin would lose.
Journey: london euston to manchester piccadilly £219.80
Journey Details
Outward - Wednesday 24th July 2019
Depart
Arrive Seating Travel by
13:41 London Euston
15:51 Manchester Piccadilly
Coach D, Seat 51 (Aisle)
Virgin Trains
Return - Thursday 25th July 2019
Depart
Arrive Seating Travel by
14:15 Manchester Piccadilly
16:20London Euston
Reservation not requested
Virgin Trains
Ticket details
ANYTIME SINGLE (OUTWARD) £175.00
  • 1 Adult(s) Full Fare @ £175.00
  • Travel is allowed via any permitted route.
  • Flexible ticket with no time restrictions on when you can travel.
OFF PEAK SINGLE (ONLINE) (RETURN) £44.80
  • 1 Adult(s) Full Fare @ £44.80
  • Travel is allowed via any permitted route.
  • Flexible ticket only valid at specific off-peak times of the day.
Journey price £219.80
Until a couple of years ago I didn't really understand the legal position. But now I am enlightened and I can see wrongdoing where it occurs, and it is occurring here.

T&Cs imposed by train companies do NOT over-rule contract laws, consumer laws, competition law, or any other laws. Nor can the DfT over-rule these laws. End of!

@Mark Coley keep plugging away and retain the evidence. Anyone else who is denied should retain the evidence, in case there is ever a legal case in the future (there should be!)
 

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AlterEgo

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Where in the booking process did it warn you that, if you proceeded with this particular selection you were now booking two separate journeys instead of the return journey you originally specified and your rights to compensation in the event of a serious delay would be diminished?

Nobody is suggesting this is not a return journey, but rather that this is not a return ticket. I've checked the NRCoT and Virgin's charter.

Find me a reference that says the compensation is payable based on a return journey and I'll happy concede.
 

yorkie

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Nobody is suggesting this is not a return journey, but rather that this is not a return ticket.
But is it lawful for consumer rights and/or the rights afforded by contractual terms to be reduced when a customer chooses a return journey but their selection becomes two single tickets, but at all stages there is no suggestion it is not a return journey?

In the past, before I had conversations with suitably qualified legal experts in this area, I might have been persuaded to think that Virgin could reduce rights in this way. But with the knowledge I have now, I think it is it extremely doubtful that this would be lawful.

It would also be useful if anyone wishes to send an FOI request to DfT asking for the terms of Delay Repay, as per TOCs franchise commitments, and examine the use of the words "journey" and "ticket". Note that this would not affect the legal position but may indicate whether or not Virgin are committing a franchise breach.
 

AlterEgo

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But is it lawful for consumer rights and/or the rights afforded by contractual terms to be reduced when a customer chooses a return journey but their selection becomes two single tickets, but at all stages there is no suggestion it is not a return journey?

This is inherently the problem - at no point does any of the literature or contract with the passenger suggest that a return journey qualifies for maximum compensation so I don't think the passenger can possibly give consideration to that fact.

At no point in the booking process did the customer book a return ticket only for it to magically turn into two single tickets. You may remember an old glitch where customers would book an Off Peak Return only for it to inexplicably turn into two Off Peak Singles for the same price - in this case I would strongly agree with you.
 

yorkie

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This is inherently the problem - at no point does any of the literature or contract with the passenger suggest that a return journey qualifies for maximum compensation so I don't think the passenger can possibly give consideration to that fact.
I dunno about that.

Their charter says:
60 – 119 minutes
We will pay you compensation to the value of 100% of the cost of your single ticket or 100% of the cost of the relevant portion* of your return ticket.

120 minutes or longer
We will pay you compensation to the value of 100% of the cost of your single ticket or 100% of the cost of your return ticket.

(i.e. both portions not just one way).
* by ‘relevant portion’ we mean either the outward or return portion of a return ticket,
depending upon whether you were delayed on your outward or return journey.
At no point in the booking process did the customer book a return ticket only for it to magically turn into two single tickets. You may remember an old glitch where customers would book an Off Peak Return only for it to inexplicably turn into two Off Peak Singles for the same price - in this case I would strongly agree with you.
Actually that can still happen! I bought a ticket from Virgin where that happened (the ticket was for another forum member), only a few months ago. The most common cause is due to rounding issues (e.g. if 2 x SVH become 5p cheaper than 1 x SVR).

I think that to say an off peak single plus anytime single would not qualify but two off peak singles would qualify, on the basis it is a technical glitch that a return was not offered, wouldn't be a good legal argument. I agree with you that it may be a technical argument Virgin may use, but I can't see how that would make any sense from a legal or contractual point of view.
 

AlterEgo

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Actually that can still happen! I bought a ticket from Virgin where that happened (the ticket was for another forum member), only a few months ago. The most common cause is due to rounding issues (e.g. if 2 x SVH become 5p cheaper than 1 x SVR).

I think that to say an off peak single plus anytime single would not qualify but two off peak singles would qualify, on the basis it is a technical glitch that a return was not offered, wouldn't be a good legal argument. I agree with you that it may be a technical argument Virgin may use, but I can't see how that would make any sense from a legal or contractual point of view.

Perhaps I was insufficiently clear - by "then I would agree with you" I mean agreeing that the reduced entitlement to compensation was unjustly changed by a quirk in the booking engine, without warning given to the passenger.
 

gray1404

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Last week I traveled with a friend of mine on a journey and we were delayed 2 hours and 4 minutes. I held two advance singles for the journey. My friend held an Off Peak Return. We have both submitted delay repay claims. I expect to get back the cost of my advance single (not the cost of both advance singles I used to make up a round trip) and my friend expects to get back the cost of the total cost of his Off Peak Return. I could have put myself in the same situation had I also been travelling on an Off Peak Return.

However, this sounds like a different situation because the OP was travelling on a ticket for one leg of the journey (Off Peak Single Online) that can only be sold if another ticket is sold in the opposite direction (i.e. to make up a return journey).

My advise to the OP is to reply back to Virgin Trains by email quoting their case reference number and ask that their complaint is looked at by a Manager before they consider if they want to take the matter to the Rail Ombudsman. In your email explain that you would like the Manager to consider that your made your purchase of a round trip/return journey and stress the fact how excessive the delay was at Milton Keynes Central and your final arrival at London Euston.
 

Bletchleyite

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At no point in the booking process did the customer book a return ticket only for it to magically turn into two single tickets. You may remember an old glitch where customers would book an Off Peak Return only for it to inexplicably turn into two Off Peak Singles for the same price - in this case I would strongly agree with you.

The way it works on the VTWC site is that you choose two singles, and if the two are the same and less than a month apart they turn into the respective return. So I can't think of any way in which anyone could be "fooled" in that manner.
 

yorkie

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It doesn't, but as it's a feature of near enough every Delay Repay scheme (a few commuter TOCs don't have the 2 hour level) I suspect the DfT probably has sought legal advice when they defined it as such.
DfT and legal advice? Well that's me convinced! :lol:
 

sheff1

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I may have missed it, but can you confirm you did travel on to London after the lengthy delay at Milton Keynes or did you abort the journey and return north from Milton Keynes ?
 
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