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New trains for East Midlands Franchise

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Pumbaa

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There is a big difference between not being cleared to run, and not being able to be cleared to run.

If 800/801s can be cleared to run into Lincoln, I’m sure it’ll fine to get the paperwork back in order for 170s.
 
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hooverboy

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Depending on what happens with the regional fleet, what can run into Lincoln Central? Class 170s apparently cannot because of the gauge change during the re-modelling in 2007/8. Will 156/158s be kept on and refurbed for the LEI/NOT-GMB, DON-PBO and NNG-LCN services?
I very much think abellio will be looking for a fairly standard fleet for regional/rural trains as well.it keeps the servicing and maintainance costs down.

the 153's are gone for sure, it's just a question of numbers,leasing costs and running costs.
a 156 as a temporary measure on the crewe's and lincolns is still quite a nice upgrade, but it doesn't really make economic sense for them to be running 15x/17x.
ideally it would be a 2 car 158 on crewe/lincoln/matlock and a 3 car 159 on the skeggy's(6 car 159 on the norwich-liverpool)
..could do the same sort of diagrams with 170/171/172 but they are more expensive to run,and not as quick off the blocks.

EMT can exclusively go for 23m stock without much problem, but I think they'd prefer to stick to one type.
either grab the 158's /159's from SWT in exchange for these 170's from scotrail(and the 156's), that would give you a homogenous fleet for the most part.
SWT might agree because they get faster stock, 90mph is a bit of a bottleneck on those routes.
EMT would be happy because they get a uniform fleet and a decent number of carriages.90mph is quite sufficient for their regional units.

or go for the 17x's.

ps, i would absolutely love 185's on nottingham-skeg diagrams,they are cosmetically and logistically perfect for the route, but they cost an absolute fortune to run!
nice ambiance..check
decent speed...check
decent tables/seating layout..check
decent luggage space..check

weight...boo!
fuel efficiency...boo!
operating costs..boo!

3 car 17x/159 would be a suitable deputy in my opinion,as long as they sort the overhead storage areas out.WAY too small!
 
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edwin_m

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Depending on what happens with the regional fleet, what can run into Lincoln Central? Class 170s apparently cannot because of the gauge change during the re-modelling in 2007/8. Will 156/158s be kept on and refurbed for the LEI/NOT-GMB, DON-PBO and NNG-LCN services?
That's very careless of somebody. Do you have any more details or a source?
 

LowLevel

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ps, i would absolutely love 185's on nottingham-skeg diagrams,they are cosmetically and logistically perfect for the route, but they cost an absolute fortune to run!
3 car 17x/159 would be a suitable deputy in my opinion

Are you with us on planet East Midlands Railway? An over heavy thirsty 100mph DMU with no luggage space on a branch line that varies between 50 and 60 mph mainly existing to serve leisure passengers with luggage? I can hardly think of anything less suitable than a 185. They'd smash the track to bits.
 

hooverboy

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Are you with us on planet East Midlands Railway? An over heavy thirsty 100mph DMU with no luggage space on a branch line that varies between 50 and 60 mph mainly existing to serve leisure passengers with luggage? I can hardly think of anything less suitable than a 185. They'd smash the track to bits.
yes I'm with you on planet east midlands!

yes I know they're heavy, but the luggage space is miles better than a 158 presently is- which is already used.
passengers prefer the 158 ambiance for sure, just dislike lack of storage

rail staff prefer the 156's, for the abundance of storage!

as for battering the track, 185's run to cleethorpes on track of similar grade/vintage.
I think a modded 158/159 would be a better solution though.
 

K13R0N

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That's very careless of somebody. Do you have any more details or a source?

I'm going off what the EMR wikipedia page says, which is why I'm taking it with a pinch of salt and saying the gauge apparently cannot cater for 17xs
 

swt_passenger

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The chances of SWR swapping out 158/159 for 170s are vanishingly small. They want a common fleet of gangwayed stock, which is split and joined all day, and usually carries a trolley. Remember they already got rid of their previous 170s about 12 years ago...
 

samuelmorris

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The chances of SWR swapping out 158/159 for 170s are vanishingly small. They want a common fleet of gangwayed stock, which is split and joined all day, and usually carries a trolley. Remember they already got rid of their previous 170s about 12 years ago...
Yes, the 170s were removed from SWT for a reason, I doubt they will want them back.

As far as I know all the 185s will be staying with TPE for the foreseeable.
 

londonmidland

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The only chance of seeing a 185 on the East Midlands network is when TransPennine Express, potentially, take over the Nottingham - Liverpool section. Though that's for a whole new thread.
 

Kneedown

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I'm going off what the EMR wikipedia page says, which is why I'm taking it with a pinch of salt and saying the gauge apparently cannot cater for 17xs
I'll take it with a dessertspoonful of salt. I've not heard anything about 170's being barred from lincoln following the remodelling. IF it is the case, then my money would be on it being a clerical issue rather than an infrastructure related one.
 
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I've seen a report on one newspaper website (I think it was the Guardian's) that one of Boris Johnson's first regional visits after becoming PM will be to north east England.

I wonder if an announcement about Hitachi getting the EMR order for MML bi-modes will be timed to correspond with him being in the area?
 

The Ham

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The chances of SWR swapping out 158/159 for 170s are vanishingly small. They want a common fleet of gangwayed stock, which is split and joined all day, and usually carries a trolley. Remember they already got rid of their previous 170s about 12 years ago...

Even if they could reform then to create 5 coach units (by swapping into one unit a couple of extra central coaches) I would be surprised if they would want them (they would also have a LOT of, something like 40, 2 coach units which few TOC's would want).
 

HOOVER29

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Having been on a majority of EMT’s class 158 fleet on my travels from either Derby, Leicester or Nottingham I can honestly say I’ve never been on a bad one. Interiors are tip top & always clean & the ride quality is very good too especially at the top end of 90mph.
I also prefer them to the class 170.
Not quite as good as a class 222 unit though.
Incidentally some 170’s operating on CrossCountry are right old dog boxes now. They’re in need of an overhaul.
I’ve been on Northern class 158’s that are in better shape.
 

Roast Veg

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Having been on a majority of EMT’s class 158 fleet on my travels from either Derby, Leicester or Nottingham I can honestly say I’ve never been on a bad one. Interiors are tip top & always clean & the ride quality is very good too especially at the top end of 90mph.
I also prefer them to the class 170.
Not quite as good as a class 222 unit though.
Incidentally some 170’s operating on CrossCountry are right old dog boxes now. They’re in need of an overhaul.
I’ve been on Northern class 158’s that are in better shape.
I agree with the above for the most part, though I'd go as far as to say with the way the 222s are now (I.E. ratty) the 158s are looking really rather nice.
 

londonmidland

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I don’t know if this has already been mentioned however the 180’s are due to come into service next summer, although no specific date at this moment in time.

I’m taking no risk in posting the whole document however I quote from it:
‘How are Abellio going to turn the Class 180 fleet into a train that’s reliable?’

“Abellio intend to invest time, effort and money to ensure they are as reliable as the existing Class 222 fleet, working with other industry partners to help achieve this. It is the intention that this fleet will be maintained by Bombardier.”
 

43096

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I don’t know if this has already been mentioned however the 180’s are due to come into service next summer, although no specific date at this moment in time.

I’m taking no risk in posting the whole document however I quote from it:
‘How are Abellio going to turn the Class 180 fleet into a train that’s reliable?’

“Abellio intend to invest time, effort and money to ensure they are as reliable as the existing Class 222 fleet, working with other industry partners to help achieve this. It is the intention that this fleet will be maintained by Bombardier.”
Given the state of the GWR fleet, perhaps a more pertinent question would be how are Abellio going to get their new (s)Hitachi sets reliable?
 

Roast Veg

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The 180s are higher risk than the AT300s, since they'll break down in any weather as opposed to just the summer. They're also coming much sooner and should be the priority.

If Bombardier are taking these on, perhaps they will be responsible for a mechanical overhaul as well?
 
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Well the 180 is only dross below the floor. The IEP is dross both above and below the floor.

My wife went on a Hull Trains class 180 about 18 months ago, and she thought it was one of the nicest trains she'd ever been on; she's seen the inside of an IEP (in an adjacent track in Reading station) and wasn't impressed
 

Bletchleyite

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My wife went on a Hull Trains class 180 about 18 months ago, and she thought it was one of the nicest trains she'd ever been on; she's seen the inside of an IEP (in an adjacent track in Reading station) and wasn't impressed

The interior of the 175 and 180 is certainly well-appointed with very well-designed seats (having the support structure in the middle where your knees don't go, so they are quite thin at the sides, where your knees do go). Though construction and materials both above and below the floor are poor, it seems. They also have tiny luggage racks.
 

Class 170101

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If the Class 170s aren't cleared at Lincoln and I'm surprised they can't be if whats been said about Class 800/801s then just put them on Norwich to Liverpool services.
 

whhistle

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ideally it would be a 2 car 158 on crewe/lincoln/matlock and a 3 car 159 on the skeggy's(6 car 159 on the norwich-liverpool)
Might be nice, but this goes against everything EMR has said, and presumably have put in their bid (three types of stock only).
 

whhistle

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Also: It appears the 180s will have 6 months of refurbishment/staff training before entering service.
So long as they're released from Hull Trains in a timely manner of course!

Wonder what Grand Central feel about these coming over here?
Maybe they're just biding their time and will grab them when EMR are finished with them?
 

samuelmorris

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Also: It appears the 180s will have 6 months of refurbishment/staff training before entering service.
So long as they're released from Hull Trains in a timely manner of course!

Wonder what Grand Central feel about these coming over here?
Maybe they're just biding their time and will grab them when EMR are finished with them?
Depends if they can get any more paths to allow extra services to run. I doubt they need that many extra spares.
 

Roast Veg

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Could it not allow for doubling up of their 5 car services, or is there a platforming issue?
 

ohgoditsjames

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Considering all of the issues that GWR are having with their 800’s, is it wise that EMR order a train based on the AT300 design? You could argue that Hitachi will have learned from the mistakes but will that be the case?
 

Bletchleyite

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Considering all of the issues that GWR are having with their 800’s, is it wise that EMR order a train based on the AT300 design? You could argue that Hitachi will have learned from their mistakes but will that be the case?

I'm not sure the 80x issues (bar the seats) are any greater than any new design, though?
 
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