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Theresa May Resigns & Conservative Leader Election Discussion

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43021HST

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I love how this thread keeps making it's way back round to Corbyn, I suppose that's the three guarantees you get in life, death, taxation, and all political conversations will turn into whinging about Corbyn. (cue predictable 'joke' about high taxation under Corbyn *Yawwwn)

Living in the home counties I know plenty of Tory Moderates who are unhappy about Boris getting in.

How do people feel about Boris, the Steve Bannon connection and his brown nosing of Trump? so much for British Sovereignty.
 
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DarloRich

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I love how this thread keeps making it's way back round to Corbyn, I suppose that's the three guarantees you get in life, death, taxation, and all political conversations will turn into whinging about Corbyn.

The problem is that your wonderful Corbyn is so useless that he has manged to make Labour un electable against probably the most inept and useless government of recent times! The fact he is so irredeemably crap means that Labour are not seen as a credible alternative which facilitates the promotion of Johnson and everything that comes with him.

Labour should be massively ahead in the polls and be standing by to take power. The fact they aren't ( and the fact it is no longer WE) is because of Corbyn and his crackpot chums.

And how does that make Johnson not utterly awful?

he is absolutely awful. So is Corbyn. That is why we are in this mess.

And yet if Labour had their stuff in order in the last General Election, Johnson wouldn't have even had a sniff. I am not sure that anyone would be credible from any political colour given the last 3 years of nonsense from Blue and Red.

If only the Labour leadership chose a side on brexit and stuck to it rather than developing a frankly schizophrenic policy that attempts ( but fails) to be all things to all men
 

43021HST

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When the referendum was announced in 2015, I entered the argument at a neutral position, i.e. prepared to listen to both arguments, read the evidence they presented & form my own opinion. Sadly any lucid arguments from Leave & Remain were quickly swamped by the ridiculous rhetoric from the extremes of both sides, meaning forming an educated opinion from neutral became increasingly difficult. As a result I did not vote, not feeling confident that those who would enact whatever the result actually understood what challenges they were facing. Some might call it a kop out, and they may have a point, but I did not feel that I support either position.

A very salient point Bantamzen, my feelings entirely, although I voted Remain, all rational argument from both sides descended into cheap mudslinging. My forecast is that when Johnson has long been out, maybe in a decade or so, the UK will probably come crawling back to the EU, and this entire period will be looked upon by all political sides as a mistake

I do honestly feel that Brexit is essentially the old conservative guard coupled with American imperialists who see the EU as a threat, grabbing power back from the so called, 'metropolitan liberal elites', Boris having no real political principles, simply riding the wave of whatever gets him into power. I mean how you go from Mayor of what is the liberal centre of Britain, to spearheading essentially an anti liberal campaign, speaks volumes for the mans integrity.

As a side note, I do have my own issues with Corbyn, but I don't go repeating them like some brainwashed mantra. Really someone should start a seperate thread about this.
 

DarloRich

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When the referendum was announced in 2015, I entered the argument at a neutral position, i.e. prepared to listen to both arguments, read the evidence they presented & form my own opinion. Sadly any lucid arguments from Leave & Remain were quickly swamped by the ridiculous rhetoric from the extremes of both sides, meaning forming an educated opinion from neutral became increasingly difficult. As a result I did not vote, not feeling confident that those who would enact whatever the result actually understood what challenges they were facing. Some might call it a kop out, and they may have a point, but I did not feel that I support either position.

I agree with your position (as i was agnostic about the EU at the time of the referendum) - until your final sentence. You did "kop out" in my mind. Sorry to be harsh but you and people like you who didn't bother to vote are partly to blame for the mess we are in now.

On the basis of a lack of credible information, from leave especially, I voted remain on the basis of better the devil you know.

How does anyone on this thread feel about any Labour Government under Corbyn being treated by an American president such as Trump when it comes to any future trade deal?

The same as Johnson will: Pants pulled down and bent over.
 

Robin Edwards

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I love how this thread keeps making it's way back round to Corbyn, I suppose that's the three guarantees you get in life, death, taxation, and all political conversations will turn into whinging about Corbyn. (cue predictable 'joke' about high taxation under Corbyn *Yawwwn)

Living in the home counties I know plenty of Tory Moderates who are unhappy about Boris getting in.

How do people feel about Boris, the Steve Bannon connection and his brown nosing of Trump? so much for British Sovereignty.

I tend to agree with your sentiments and the questions I ask of my Tory-voting F&F is ' how bad do you want things to be before Corbyn's policies of trying to get more fairness and balance into our country, feels viable for you?
How many sick & homeless people, children that are below poverty levels and stories that UK can't afford anything different does it need'.
Would we rather give up a working relationship with our biggest trading partner (by far) in lieu of allowing a fawning PM to then allow the likes of Trump to suck the value from our NHS? Ask yourselves why Trump supports Johnson and berates Corbyn?
Do we really think Boris Johnson's interests lie with his country when his first mention has been to reduce tax thresholds for the most wealthy to pander to his minority of supporters? In this really our country's priority?
Do we really want a country where the Establishment is corruptly undemocratic and MSM all seemingly stacked against the left wing parties whilst Tory government brings growing crisis and calamity?
Do we really want right wing extremists dictating the nation with their hateful and divisive traits that Theresa May supported through her tenure as HS and PM? With Trump and now Johnson, the genie is really out of the lamp with growing confidence and open racism - it will take a good man or woman to force that genie back. If we thing things are fine and the left wing are over reacting, do we feel the same when our parents and grand parents defended UK against Nazi oppression in 1930/40s?
I agree that Labour are not in good shape however I try to focus on manifesto and policies rather than individual personalities that can and will change over time, including Johnson, Corbyn and most certainly, Trump. Every time the incumbent government is questioned and attempts are made to hold them to account, the boring rhetoric repeatedly bounces back about Corbyn as a pathetic smoke screen.

For those that will never ever leave their Tory loyalties whatever happens, which policies of trying to balance more fairness and humanity into our country that Labour (and others) are selling, are so unpalatable to you and yours?

Scandanavian countries have lived with coalition for may years, have high taxation, high standards of living and welfare yet are reported as being the happiest peoples and places to live in the world? I have no personal experience of living in Sweden or Denmark yet when I hear that UK can't afford for things to be better for the 5/6th richest nation in the world, I don't believe it! :)

Sermon for this morning over ........ :)
 

takno

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What's laughable is the amount of people moaning and whinging about Johnson being Prime Minister - it's mainly Labour supporters who need to realise that if Labour had their stuff in order during the last General Election and formed a credible opposition, then May would have lost that election and Johnson would not have had a sniff of being PM (for the time being anyway). The fact that May did appalling during the last election and still managed to form a minority government says more about Labour than it does about the Conservatives
It's definitely a far wider group of people than just Labour supporters. The fact that both parties went into the last election with fairly bad leaders doesn't provide even the slightest of cover for the Tories doubling down and picking one who's even worse. Frankly it's a bit sad how desperate some people on the right are to paint Corbyn as some kind of bogeyman that they even want to blame their own terrible choice of prime minister on him.
 

nlogax

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I think most us can agree that politics is almost universally broken and that 'good' choices or rational directions and debate are hard to find right now. Every option has a massive downside - be that Corbyn, Johnson or someone else, and nothing is as clear cut as it once was. Neat party lines barely exist and most of those who lead us or want to are in it for themselves and not for any sort of greater good.

While Brexit is happening partially due to parts of society having felt disenfranchised from politics, the net result from it will likely be even more of the same. The likes of Boris Johnson - or Jeremy Corbyn - gaining power won't change that.
 

Bantamzen

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I agree with your position (as i was agnostic about the EU at the time of the referendum) - until your final sentence. You did "kop out" in my mind. Sorry to be harsh but you and people like you who didn't bother to vote are partly to blame for the mess we are in now.

On the basis of a lack of credible information, from leave especially, I voted remain on the basis of better the devil you know.

I don't think either side was credible by the end, hence my decision. However whilst I accept the kop out, the Brexit mess can be entirely attributed to the Rainbow and Unicorn Brexiteers who lapped up the rhetoric without questioning it. Had they forced their side to come up with a cohesive plan when it was unclear which way the vote would go, the Leave leaders would have had a clear roadmap out. But instead they cheered on Farage and co with their playground antics.
 

DarloRich

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I tend to agree with your sentiments and the questions I ask of my Tory-voting F&F is ' how bad do you want things to be before Corbyn's policies of trying to get more fairness and balance into our country, feels viable for you?

Answer: When it impacts on us.

Corbyn has to reach middle class, middle England voters to win power. He cant. His manifesto isnt the problem ( generally) HE is. His wishy washy message about fairness and equality, which is received as I am going to take the money you have worked hard for and need to support your family and give it to lazy layabouts so they can continue to be lazy layabouts, simply isnt landing.

The biggest issue I have with the Corbyn policy agenda is that is seems to lack any form of aspiration. it doesn't seem designed to help people better or improve themselves. Labour used to be about supporting people to help themselves via a safety net and good quality education and public services. Now it seems to be about pandering to jealousy and dragging all down to a low level rather than raising people up.

An example: Private schools. The proposed policy isn't we are going to make "comprehensive" schools so good that no one will ever need to pay for a better education. It is we will ban private schools. We wont raise the standard for all so instead we will reduce the standard for some. It isn't we will ensure all schools have only the best facilities and equipment and the best trained and motivated teachers it is we will make everyone have the same low standards ( overlooking the fact richer parents will pay for tution or move home to find better schools)

I don't think either side was credible by the end, hence my decision. However whilst I accept the kop out, the Brexit mess can be entirely attributed to the Rainbow and Unicorn Brexiteers who lapped up the rhetoric without questioning it. Had they forced their side to come up with a cohesive plan when it was unclear which way the vote would go, the Leave leaders would have had a clear roadmap out. But instead they cheered on Farage and co with their playground antics.

I agree most of the blame lies with those who blindly follow Farage et al but you have to own your part of it. You are partially responsible for this mess. How many people like you didn't/wouldn't/couldn't pick a side are out there? How might that have changed the arithmetic of the referendum? By not voting you as good as voted leave in my mind. Sorry.
 

edwin_m

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When the referendum was announced in 2015, I entered the argument at a neutral position, i.e. prepared to listen to both arguments, read the evidence they presented & form my own opinion. Sadly any lucid arguments from Leave & Remain were quickly swamped by the ridiculous rhetoric from the extremes of both sides, meaning forming an educated opinion from neutral became increasingly difficult. As a result I did not vote, not feeling confident that those who would enact whatever the result actually understood what challenges they were facing. Some might call it a kop out, and they may have a point, but I did not feel that I support either position.

I'd be interested to know whether you feel there are any tenable arguments to support Brexit, other than that people voted for it. I have to say I struggle to see any, and furthermore the politicians who support it are the ones I consider to be most incompetent and generally obnoxious.

How does anyone on this thread feel about any Labour Government under Corbyn being treated by an American president such as Trump when it comes to any future trade deal?
Corbyn will show some defiance, probably futile, but Johnson will cave in to every demand. Which of those is closer to the Blitz spirit that we're supposed to invoke to survive Brexit?

I love how this thread keeps making it's way back round to Corbyn, I suppose that's the three guarantees you get in life, death, taxation, and all political conversations will turn into whinging about Corbyn. (cue predictable 'joke' about high taxation under Corbyn *Yawwwn)
Corbyn carries a lot of the blame for this mess. By campaigning more strongly Labour could probably have secured a Remain majority in the referendum and we'd never have been this mess. By taking such a partisan attitude to the efforts of Parliament to climb out of the Brexit hole they missed several opportunities to avert what happened yesterday.
 

DarloRich

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Corbyn carries a lot of the blame for this mess. By campaigning more strongly Labour could probably have secured a Remain majority in the referendum and we'd never have been this mess. By taking such a partisan attitude to the efforts of Parliament to climb out of the Brexit hole they missed several opportunities to avert what happened yesterday.

Spot on.
 

DarloRich

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But at least they protected their ideological purity! Or something... :rolleyes:

gone well O/T here but that seems to be what is important. It is all about purging Blarite scum. It used to be about winning elections and making life better for people.....................
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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gone well O/T here but that seems to be what is important. It is all about purging Blarite scum. It used to be about winning elections and making life better for people.....................

Somewhat reminiscent of what happened in the immediate years that followed on after the 1917 Russian revolution when certain revolutionary factions began to "deal with" other factions of the revolution.

After the English Civil War, Oliver Cromwell found that he needed to deal with one or two of the factions that were part of his grouping, one of these being The Levellers.
 

Mag_seven

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Corbyn carries a lot of the blame for this mess. By campaigning more strongly Labour could probably have secured a Remain majority in the referendum and we'd never have been this mess. By taking such a partisan attitude to the efforts of Parliament to climb out of the Brexit hole they missed several opportunities to avert what happened yesterday.

Its unfortunate that at the time when we have the worst government in living memory we also have the worst opposition as well.
 

thejuggler

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The number of unhappy MPs of all colours will be revealed once there are some votes taking place.

Johnson's first confirmed appointment is someone who was held in contempt of Parliament and thinks the ERG are like a tumour which needs eradicating.
 

Dave1987

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Its unfortunate that at the time when we have the worst government in living memory we also have the worst opposition as well.

Totally agree. The Blarites that Labour have tried to get rid of would have torn the Toires as they are to bits. Labour are very much blame as well for Johnson becoming PM, for being such a dismal opposition.
 

GrimShady

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And if he succeeds in exiting the EU on no deal without winning a general election or second referendum, then give Farage the next stint in a merged party, as who’s left will essentially be conservatives in name only.

Personally I really couldn't care what happens in the political scene anymore. I've been around long enough to know that no matter who is in power the sun will still rise each morning despite all the doomsayers predictions.
 
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Carlisle

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I'd be interested to know whether you feel there are any tenable arguments to support Brexit, other than that people voted for it. .
It’s my perception a sizeable number of leave voters retain the opinion wages & conditions will ultimately improve once we can establish our own (much tighter) emigration controls, only problem is many are retired or fairly close to it , & freely admit they don’t believe they’ll personally be much affected whatever happens
 
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Bantamzen

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I agree most of the blame lies with those who blindly follow Farage et al but you have to own your part of it. You are partially responsible for this mess. How many people like you didn't/wouldn't/couldn't pick a side are out there? How might that have changed the arithmetic of the referendum? By not voting you as good as voted leave in my mind. Sorry.

Sorry but you have no idea what default position of those who didn't vote was, it could quite easily have swung a larger Leave margin at further enabled the hard core Brexiteers. I spent a lot of time reading both arguments, talking to people, trying to actually to gauge what was best for the country. However as I said, the good arguments on both sides (and there were plenty at least early on) quickly got swamped by the playground spats. I could argue that Remainers, or those inclined to fall back on Remain as a default are just as responsible for not trying to steer the argument to facts rather than rhetoric. As a nation we should have pushed for a full, deep and frank debate. Instead we as a nation chose X-Factor politics. Nobody gets off with zero responsibility, we all played our parts one way or another.

I'd be interested to know whether you feel there are any tenable arguments to support Brexit, other than that people voted for it. I have to say I struggle to see any, and furthermore the politicians who support it are the ones I consider to be most incompetent and generally obnoxious.

There were, I spent quite a lot of time engaging with someone who was involved in arguing for a controlled, EEA style withdrawal. They had done a fair bit of research, put together solid arguments, including both pros & cons. They were trying to argue for that step back from the EU without necessarily damaging relations or trade, and had even begun to gain traction amongst MPs on both sides of the House. Then Boris Johnson & that bus happened, and they were marginalised by their own side for not being patriotic or something. Unfortunatley, as with the Remainers they fell back into similar situations & joined in the ruck.
 

DarloRich

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Sorry but you have no idea what default position of those who didn't vote was, it could quite easily have swung a larger Leave margin at further enabled the hard core Brexiteers. I spent a lot of time reading both arguments, talking to people, trying to actually to gauge what was best for the country. However as I said, the good arguments on both sides (and there were plenty at least early on) quickly got swamped by the playground spats. I could argue that Remainers, or those inclined to fall back on Remain as a default are just as responsible for not trying to steer the argument to facts rather than rhetoric. As a nation we should have pushed for a full, deep and frank debate. Instead we as a nation chose X-Factor politics. Nobody gets off with zero responsibility, we all played our parts one way or another.

I am not saying anyone gets out of responsibility, I agree that non voters could have swung the calculation either way and I ABSOLUTELY wanted a debate based on facts and detail as opposed to the guff we got.

However, to my mind ( and I am sure you will disagree) not voting in the referendum is as good as voting leave. Please don't complain about what comes next.
 

Bantamzen

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I am not saying anyone gets out of responsibility, I agree that non voters could have swung the calculation either way and I ABSOLUTELY wanted a debate based on facts and detail as opposed to the guff we got.

However, to my mind ( and I am sure you will disagree) not voting in the referendum is as good as voting leave. Please don't complain about what comes next.

Ah the "not allowed to complain" line eh? ;)

Sorry Darlo, but that is wrong beyond belief. People are allowed to vote or way or another, to change their views, or to not vote at all. I have explained why I did not vote because I did not feel either side had presented a good enough argument. Leave was just full of over-bearing optimism & rhetoric, Remain was too negative and didn't for one moment try to find a way to win over those less hard core leavers. You see there was no "devil you know", if a Remain vote had been returned there is no way the status quo could have been kept. It was clear that a lot of people wanted at least reform with our relationship with the EU, and so a Remain enabling government not moving towards that would have led to almost the same amount of chaos in Parliament as we see now.

What should have happened with the referendum was that both sides formulate a single, cohesive plan, both then presented as options to the public, with a third option to reject both & retry in say 2 years. I would have definitely voted to send them back on what we saw in 2016, however a far more specific plan based referendum would have focused minds more and forced the kind of debate we should have had.
 

JonathanP

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Personally I really couldn't care what happens in the political scene anymore. I've been around long enough to know that no matter who is in power the sun will still rise each morning despite all the doomsayers predictions.

This is precisely the kind of attitude which lead to the vote for Brexit, despite the shallow arguments. The idea that you can vote for anyone and anything, and everything will be just fine anyway, so why not just give it a shot?

We are living through an unprecendented period of peace and stability. War, for almost all of us, is just something that happens to other people in far off lands. So is rationing, or a collapse of the electrical system, or any other major negative events. In Britain you didn't even get the small real world reminder of life outside our cossetted world in the form of the Refugee Surge that went through continental Europe.

This didn't happen by accident, it happenned because of the hard work of politicians and other groups who are willing to put pragmatism above ideology. Yet already we are a stage where polticians are saying "we got through the blitz, so we can get through no deal Brexit".
 

DarloRich

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Ah the "not allowed to complain" line eh? ;)

Sorry Darlo, but that is wrong beyond belief. People are allowed to vote or way or another, to change their views, or to not vote at all. I have explained why I did not vote because I did not feel either side had presented a good enough argument. Leave was just full of over-bearing optimism & rhetoric, Remain was too negative and didn't for one moment try to find a way to win over those less hard core leavers. You see there was no "devil you know", if a Remain vote had been returned there is no way the status quo could have been kept. It was clear that a lot of people wanted at least reform with our relationship with the EU, and so a Remain enabling government not moving towards that would have led to almost the same amount of chaos in Parliament as we see now.

You can dress it up however you like. You didn't vote. You have to accept your part in helping to deliver leave, you have to own what is coming and you shouldn't complain about that because you didn't seem to bothered enough at the time to actually turn out and vote. I know you wont agree but my view wont change.

What should have happened with the referendum was that both sides formulate a single, cohesive plan, both then presented as options to the public, with a third option to reject both & retry in say 2 years. I would have definitely voted to send them back on what we saw in 2016, however a far more specific plan based referendum would have focused minds more and forced the kind of debate we should have had.

Very sensible. That wasn't on the ballot. Stay or go was.
 

Bantamzen

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You can dress it up however you like. You didn't vote. You have to accept your part in helping to deliver leave, you have to own what is coming and you shouldn't complain about that because you didn't seem to bothered enough at the time to actually turn out and vote. I know you wont agree but my view wont change.

Wrong, I did not vote because I wasn't bothered.

That wasn't on the ballot. Stay or go was.

Wrong. Requesting that the government invoke Article 50 was on the ballot, nothing more, nothing less. It was generally assumed that the government would follow this through to leaving, but ask yourself this. Over 3 years later, have we left yet? :?:
 

GrimShady

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This is precisely the kind of attitude which lead to the vote for Brexit, despite the shallow arguments. The idea that you can vote for anyone and anything, and everything will be just fine anyway, so why not just give it a shot?

We are living through an unprecendented period of peace and stability. War, for almost all of us, is just something that happens to other people in far off lands. So is rationing, or a collapse of the electrical system, or any other major negative events. In Britain you didn't even get the small real world reminder of life outside our cossetted world in the form of the Refugee Surge that went through continental Europe.

This didn't happen by accident, it happenned because of the hard work of politicians and other groups who are willing to put pragmatism above ideology. Yet already we are a stage where polticians are saying "we got through the blitz, so we can get through no deal Brexit".

I'm well aware of what life is like around the globe considering life working life has spent traveling around it. I doesn't matter who I vote for or if the UK leaves or remains in the EU, my fellow seafarers always get stiffed.

So no I don't give a hoot.8-)
 

ainsworth74

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I think it might be time to draw this one to a close. We have the result of the contest and we'll shortly have a new PM. We already have a thread on the EU Referrendum and Brexit (see here) which a lot of the recent contributions concern and any of the other topics that flow from continuing political machinations be they the weakness of Labour or the various policies/actions taken by the new PM are probably better off in a new thread rather than tagged onto this one. As such this thread is locked.
 
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