Standing on long rail journeys to be banned under Virgin Trains plan for airline-style fare

Jozhua · 21 Jul 2019

yorkie said:
An article published a few days ago has further scorned the idea:

I'm glad! If trains want to be competitive with the car, then we should be looking at increasing flexibility, not decreasing it!
Advance fares and reserved seats are there for people who want them, for those who don't mind standing in order to get where they need to be, that's an option too. Airline ticketing is a confusing and unstable system, which while it can provide good value fares for those who want them, is not suitable for frequent journeys, unless billed to a business expenses account

...We definitely shouldn't be replicating this for trains. (Although it would probably make Virgin a lot more money...)

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yorkie · 21 Jul 2019

Jozhua said:
I'm glad! If trains want to be competitive with the car, then we should be looking at increasing flexibility, not decreasing it!
Advance fares and reserved seats are there for people who want them, for those who don't mind standing in order to get where they need to be, that's an option too. Airline ticketing is a confusing and unstable system, which while it can provide good value fares for those who want them, is not suitable for frequent journeys, unless billed to a business expenses account ...We definitely shouldn't be replicating this for trains. (Although it would probably make Virgin a lot more money...)

I agree.

TOCs like Virgin are desperate to persuade Government to ditch the regulated Off Peak Return (SVR; formerly Saver Return) fares, so they can reduce the proportion of passengers who buy flexible fares, and increase their yield management strategies and increase revenue. They know they could charge much higher fares during the 'shoulder peak' periods and also at weekends when major events occur.

I do not think the Government will go with this, but the threat is a big one and we need to be prepared to fight any such proposals.

Hadders · 21 Jul 2019

This is good news but the battle isn't won yet. I suspect there'll be plenty of other TOCs trying to persuade us all that abolishing fares regulation and moving to compulsory reservations is a good thing.

pt_mad · 22 Jul 2019

As much as anything else, there's just no obvious way they could prevent passengers with anytime any permitted tickets from boarding at the station. The open access application includes frequent calls in the Trent Valley. How are they going to stop customers at another operator's stations from boarding without reservations? They might realise 10 minutes into the journey when people can't find a seat or are sitting at a seat without a reservation (if there are any?).

squizzler · 22 Jul 2019

yorkie said:
An article published a few days ago has further scorned the idea:

https://www.railway-technology.com/features/airline-model-for-railways/

I must confess I am surprised a professional journal such as Railway Technology would publish such an unbalanced opinion piece. Particularly disappointing is that their argument seems to rely on attacking the credibility of Virgin Trains as an operator rather than the proposal on its merits.

There are of course good arguments on both sides and those in favour were ignored. Particularly the opportunities afforded by modern technology. It need take no longer to plan your trip, choose trains and book a reserved seat on a smartphone than it would take to queue up for an 'any permitted route' tangerine ticket and then have to scan the departures board for your train.

Then there is the choice of 'experts' they used. Christian Wolmar is a superbly accessible writer and but his history of engagement with HS2 has suggested to me that he is unable to accept where he wight have been wrong. He predicted in print a decade ago (during the credit crunch) that Britain had missed the boat and it would never be built, and seems not to have accepted he made a duff call. He is also a somewhat reactionary socialist: nothing wrong with that but it does mean he might see things through a different lens than others. As a reader of his blog I actually think that standpoint and his natural cynicism as a transport journalist are more usefully directed against the real extremes of postmodern capitalist mobility such as the driverless horseless carriages and Hyperloop which are much more in need of critical analysis than his stamping ground in rail.

As for the man in seat 61, he is a savvy chap who knows how to find the best deals under the current system and has made a business from this. Of course he will be opposed to that hard won knowledge being made obsolete under fares reform!

Metrailway · 22 Jul 2019

Bletchleyite said:
The trouble is that tightly-packed 3+2 is not good for what is an extended Tube line. At best you'd get a Class 700 type layout, don't know about you but I would prefer S-stock.

There's always Chiltern if you prefer 3+2.

My emphasis

This is what modern LUL management think but in reality the Metropolitan is a 'mainline' railway with a bit of underground running rather than being primarily a extended tube line. Arguably it is more like the NR outer surburban lines than any other underground line.

The majority of passengers who use the Met line come from zone 5 and beyond. It is notable how unpopular the S Stock is with regular commuters beyond Harrow.

Old LT management understood how the Met differed and designed stock for 'Amersham Man' hence the designation of A Stock which were popular with the regular commuters. Very few people had to stand north of Harrow.

I remember several non-enthusiast friends mention to me that the new trains were a downgrade as they were forced to stand for their whole commute which never used to happen.

yorkie · 22 Jul 2019

The Metropolitan Railway is less of a "tube" type service than the Northern City Line trains from Moorgate to Stevenage, or any London Overground service.

It is only considered to be a so-called "tube" line because it happened to be placed under London Underground control when it was nationalised. It's a proper mainline railway in reality, with fast lines and multiple branches.

Bletchleyite said:
The trouble is that tightly-packed 3+2 is not good for what is an extended Tube line. At best you'd get a Class 700 type layout, don't know about you but I would prefer S-stock.

There's always Chiltern if you prefer 3+2.

The Metropolitan Railway is less of a "tube" type service than the Northern City Line trains from Moorgate to Stevenage, or any London Overground service.

It is only considered to be a so-called "tube" line because it happened to be placed under London Underground control when it was nationalised. It's a proper mainline railway in reality, with fast lines and multiple branches.

Bletchleyite · 22 Jul 2019

pt_mad said:
As much as anything else, there's just no obvious way they could prevent passengers with anytime any permitted tickets from boarding at the station.

There wouldn't be any Anytime Any Permitted tickets. The only valid tickets would be TOC specific ones.

PeterC · 22 Jul 2019

Metrailway said:
My emphasis

This is what modern LUL management think but in reality the Metropolitan is a 'mainline' railway with a bit of underground running rather than being primarily a extended tube line. Arguably it is more like the NR outer surburban lines than any other underground line.

The majority of passengers who use the Met line come from zone 5 and beyond. It is notable how unpopular the S Stock is with regular commuters beyond Harrow.

Old LT management understood how the Met differed and designed stock for 'Amersham Man' hence the designation of A Stock which were popular with the regular commuters. Very few people had to stand north of Harrow.

I remember several non-enthusiast friends mention to me that the new trains were a downgrade as they were forced to stand for their whole commute which never used to happen.

That is the problem with running a main line service through the central area. 3+2 seating means that short distance travellers ignore the empty middle seats and jam the doors instead. Before I retired I preferred the S stock as it meant that I could always get on the first homebound train which wasn't the case with the A stock, despite seats being available.

HSTEd · 22 Jul 2019

Metrailway said:
The majority of passengers who use the Met line come from zone 5 and beyond. It is notable how unpopular the S Stock is with regular commuters beyond Harrow.

Old LT management understood how the Met differed and designed stock for 'Amersham Man' hence the designation of A Stock which were popular with the regular commuters. Very few people had to stand north of Harrow.

I remember several non-enthusiast friends mention to me that the new trains were a downgrade as they were forced to stand for their whole commute which never used to happen.

However the Metropolitan line consumes valuable paths on the shared section.
This section can't tolerate trains with very low passenger load densities filling it up at the present time and into the future.
Ideally the Metropolitan would have its timetable adjusted to permit shorter journey times from outer destinations with the existing stock - but I'm not sure how possible that is given the well known capacity constraint on the Euston Road section.

EDIT:

This is one of the reasons I think the Chiltern Aylesbury line should be folded into the London Underground with terminus capacity improvements at Baker Street, the extra terminal capacity and the two extra tracks would permit a more heavily graded timetable.

6Gman · 22 Jul 2019

Bletchleyite said:
There wouldn't be any Anytime Any Permitted tickets. The only valid tickets would be TOC specific ones.

And interesting questions arise regarding Rovers, staff free passes etc

Bletchleyite · 22 Jul 2019

6Gman said:
And interesting questions arise regarding Rovers, staff free passes etc

Presumably as per France a paid-for reservation would be required.

Jozhua · 22 Jul 2019

The problem is with these airline style fares is that airlines have something known as "competition". This is a bit harder to implement on a rail network, where there is very much a restriction on paths and it frequently takes multiple operators to complete a journey.

Prices could vary wildly from one day to another, on the same journey because of arbitrary things like football games etc. Imagine someone living paycheck to paycheck trying to get into work and suddenly finding it three times as expensive...

Also it's going to inevitably reduce the capacity on the railway, one of the best features about public transport is it can be overfilled at times where there is a capacity shortfall, instead of needing to add more vehicles to the same infrastructure. So whilst it's a bit uncomfortable, your journey shouldn't take much longer (give or take loading times) than if it was a normal day.

sprunt · 23 Jul 2019

Jozhua said:
Imagine someone living paycheck to paycheck trying to get into work.

How would commuting even work? Would you have a season ticket for the 07.54 and the 17:32?

JamesT · 23 Jul 2019

sprunt said:
How would commuting even work? Would you have a season ticket for the 07.54 and the 17:32?

This has rather drifted. The proposals were only that long distance trains would change to reservation only, commuter trains would remain much as they currently are.
The difficulty being we don’t have a nice clear distinction between intercity and commuter trains in this country and many areas where the trains used for commuting are those that would usually be considered intercity. But that to me says you pick the trains that are primarily long distance (ie VTWC and LNER) only as the first tranche to see how it works.
https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...line-model-for-long-distance-rail-travel.html does say you would still have season tickets, but you’d still need to reserve a seat on the train you expect to get.
I don’t see this as a massive barrier if the reservation system is made easy to use. It wouldn’t be that hard to set up a block booking where you reserve your usual seat when you buy your season ticket. If you’re going to get a different train then you cancel that reservation and reserve onto your new train so you’re only ever using one seat.

Bletchleyite · 24 Jul 2019

Some TOCs already allow commuters to reserve - I have half a feeling LNER do, or did in a previous incarnation.

Hadders · 24 Jul 2019

sprunt said:
How would commuting even work? Would you have a season ticket for the 07.54 and the 17:32?

Bletchleyite said:
Some TOCs already allow commuters to reserve - I have half a feeling LNER do, or did in a previous incarnation.

At the moment if there aren't any seats on the 07:54 or the 17:32 you can stand and still get to your destination. With compulsory reservations, however easy they are to obtain, you're potentially not going to work or coming home if all the seats are reserved.

3rd rail land · 24 Jul 2019

Hadders said:
At the moment if there aren't any seats on the 07:54 or the 17:32 you can stand and still get to your destination. With compulsory reservations, however easy they are to obtain, you're potentially not going to work or coming home if all the seats are reserved.

Would the TOCs add additional carriages to the busy trains, such as the 07:54 & 17:32 you have previously mentioned, in order to allow those who might otherwise stand to have a reserved seat?
Seems unlikely but if people were all of a sudden unable to get the train they usual travel on I am sure there would soon be a backlash against the TOC and the press would have a field day.

Bletchleyite · 24 Jul 2019

3rd rail land said:
Would the TOCs add additional carriages to the busy trains, such as the 07:54 & 17:32 you have previously mentioned, in order to allow those who might otherwise stand to have a reserved seat?

VTWC certainly have the flexibility of 5.221, 10.221, 9.390 or 11.390 and are quite good at allocating those according to capacity needed, very rarely do I have to stand on a VTWC train but often there are not many seats spare.

Seems unlikely but if people were all of a sudden unable to get the train they usual travel on I am sure there would soon be a backlash against the TOC and the press would have a field day.

I'm sure the Reading commuters would whine, but provided a suitable EMU service was provided they can be told to shut up. The purpose of IC services is not transporting commuters.

exile · 24 Jul 2019

squizzler said:
Then there is the choice of 'experts' they used. Christian Wolmar is a superbly accessible writer and but his history of engagement with HS2 has suggested to me that he is unable to accept where he wight have been wrong. He predicted in print a decade ago (during the credit crunch) that Britain had missed the boat and it would never be built, and seems not to have accepted he made a duff call. He is also a

Really? Haven't we got a new PM who has promised to review the whole project? In view of Brexit isn't HS2 a tempting target for a chancellor trying to plug the resultant hole in public finances?

Bletchleyite · 24 Jul 2019

exile said:
Really? Haven't we got a new PM who has promised to review the whole project? In view of Brexit isn't HS2 a tempting target for a chancellor trying to plug the resultant hole in public finances?

Arguably if HS2 gets canned this sort of thing will be even more needed, because it will be impossible to provide the capacity needed, so it will be necessary to manage demand by dynamic pricing and push people onto road coaches etc with "sorry, it's full"?

radamfi · 24 Jul 2019

Virgin and LNER effectively have no service at peak times, certainly on long distance trips to and from London, because the Anytime fares are unaffordable to almost everyone. So allocated seating might actually make these trains usable.

Bletchleyite · 24 Jul 2019

radamfi said:
Virgin and LNER effectively have no service at peak times, certainly on long distance trips to and from London, because the Anytime fares are unaffordable to almost everyone. So allocated seating might actually make these trains usable.

Interestingly those outrageous fares are precisely why they have capacity to take a few commuters southbound from MKC in the morning peak. (They aren't interested in northbound evening peak traffic as that takes seats others may want).

Adsy125 · 24 Jul 2019

radamfi said:
Virgin and LNER effectively have no service at peak times, certainly on long distance trips to and from London, because the Anytime fares are unaffordable to almost everyone. So allocated seating might actually make these trains usable.

But they’re affordable to enough people that the trains are used, so there is no way they would reduce them with compulsory reservations, they would just lose money.

Ianno87 · 24 Jul 2019

radamfi said:
Virgin and LNER effectively have no service at peak times, certainly on long distance trips to and from London, because the Anytime fares are unaffordable to almost everyone. So allocated seating might actually make these trains usable.

Adsy125 said:
But they’re affordable to enough people that the trains are used, so there is no way they would reduce them with compulsory reservations, they would just lose money.

The fares at that time of day are, in effect, an indirect tax levy on people travelling to London for business meetings. A guaranteed income for the railway. Some of those trains must be incredibly lucrative for Virgin.

route101 · 24 Jul 2019

Bletchleyite said:
VTWC certainly have the flexibility of 5.221, 10.221, 9.390 or 11.390 and are quite good at allocating those according to capacity needed, very rarely do I have to stand on a VTWC train but often there are not many seats spare.

I'm sure the Reading commuters would whine, but provided a suitable EMU service was provided they can be told to shut up. The purpose of IC services is not transporting commuters.

Unreserved seating on 9 car pendos is less than it was since it moved to coach c .

Hadders · 24 Jul 2019

3rd rail land said:
Would the TOCs add additional carriages to the busy trains, such as the 07:54 & 17:32 you have previously mentioned, in order to allow those who might otherwise stand to have a reserved seat?
Seems unlikely but if people were all of a sudden unable to get the train they usual travel on I am sure there would soon be a backlash against the TOC and the press would have a field day.

We run fixed formation trains so you can’t just add an extra carriages or two.

If it’s were that easy Cross Country or TPE would’ve done it years ago.

Bletchleyite · 24 Jul 2019

route101 said:
Unreserved seating on 9 car pendos is less than it was since it moved to coach c .

I'm not quite sure why they did that, because by moving it out of F there is now a reservable coach (F) that has a different layout in the two lengths of Pendolino. (The converted Fs are different from the 11-car Fs as the toilet is at the opposite end).

If they'd kept it as F and where applicable U, the reserved coaches would all have the same layout.

RLBH · 24 Jul 2019

Hadders said:
We run fixed formation trains so you can’t just add an extra carriages or two.

The fact that we have fixed formation trains, and the fact that we can't just add carriages, are separate.

Yes, it's difficult to 'just' add carriages to multiple units, though easier in some than others. But even where we run LHCS, which can theoretically be lengthened quite easily we still run fixed formations, because that's more economic than splitting and making up sets to match demand. The relationship between average demand and the capacity of the fixed formations could be better - see CrossCountry - but there's no getting around the busiest services being crowded.

In the case of ultra-busy London commuter services, lengthening isn't possible because of infrastructure constraints. Even if there were thousands of compatible carriages sitting around, they couldn't be added because the resulting trains wouldn't fit. For these services, there isn't really a solution to overcrowding other than reducing the number of people travelling into London at peak times.

Hadders · 24 Jul 2019

RLBH said:
For these services, there isn't really a solution to overcrowding other than reducing the number of people travelling into London at peak times.

Which simply isn't an option. The day we do this is the day the economy starts to go pop.

Standing on long rail journeys to be banned under Virgin Trains plan for airline-style fare

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