Role of Conductor and Revenue Protection Officers

Moriarty01 · 24 Jul 2019

I travel daily on SouthEastern Trains on the Maidstone East line with an annual season ticket.

There is a conductor onboard and each day he/she will pass through the train checking tickets and asking if anyone needs to buy a ticket. They do not ask why anyone buying a ticket did not do so before they boarded. It is a friendly exchange and helps create a general good atmosphere on the train.

Yesterday two Revenue Protection Officers passed through the train and the conductor stayed in their own area. Now, ofcourse, the situation was different and fines were issued to all those passengers who were reasonably expecting to buy a ticket on the train from the conductor.

So, what is going wrong with the system? Should SouthEastern conductors stop selling tickets onboard to passengers as it is putting passengers at risk of being fined if the next day there is an RPO onboard instead?

Andy

RailUK Forums

Rockhopper · 24 Jul 2019

It’s the same setup on the Robin Hood line, machines at all the stations and notices about penalty fares etc but the majority of people buy on the train with no apparent issue.

Mathew S · 24 Jul 2019

My attitude to this (I see it a lot on Northern) is that conductors should sell tickets but, as I understand the rules, should only sell full-priced tickets (ie. anytime, no-railcards) AND should be warning the customers involved that they could have been issued with a penalty fare.
That said, in the situation the OP describes, the customers - whilst understandably cross - would have no comeback since they are travelling without a ticket when they had the opportunity to purchase before boarding.

221129 · 24 Jul 2019

What should happen is all those passengers should buy their tickets before boarding and stop fare evading. (Pay when challenged is still fare evasion.)

Bishopstone · 24 Jul 2019

Same on the Seaford line: a well-established culture of buying on the train, with no questions asked, despite the Penalty Fare scheme applying.

Then, twice a year, the RPOs (or whatever they’re titled in these parts) descend, giving an inquisition/PF/report for prosecution to the ticket-less.

It’s inconsistent, but without having a RPO on every train; OR allowing punctuality to fall off a cliff with Guards getting involved in heated fare disputes; OR pulling Guards off revenue entirely and hoping the chancers get caught for PFs at barriers, which detracts from industry productivity: then I don’t have a better solution.

I think Guards should at least remind the ticket-less of the presence of the station machines and existence of the Penalty Fare zone, to start changing the PayTrain culture.

exile · 24 Jul 2019

Offer a small discount for tickets bought before boarding. Or, if you like, a small penalty for not doing so.

MichaelAMW · 24 Jul 2019

Bishopstone said:
Same on the Seaford line: a well-established culture of buying on the train, with no questions asked, despite the Penalty Fare scheme applying.

Then, twice a year, the RPOs (or whatever they’re titled in these parts) descend, giving an inquisition/PF/report for prosecution to the ticket-less.

It’s inconsistent, but without having a RPO on every train; OR allowing punctuality to fall off a cliff with Guards getting involved in heated fare disputes; OR pulling Guards off revenue entirely and hoping the chancers get caught for PFs at barriers, which detracts from industry productivity: then I don’t have a better solution.

I think Guards should at least remind the ticket-less of the presence of the station machines and existence of the Penalty Fare zone, to start changing the PayTrain culture.

I think you have provided us with a succinct summary of the whole situation. At the heart of the problem is that the "The Railway" has set up an expectation, and repeatedly reinforced this day after day, that tickets may be bought on the train. Whilst I agree that the requirement is for tickets to be purchased in advance, if possible, I do have some sympathy with the thousands of regular fare-paying passengers who have been fooled into believing that paying on the train is acceptable. Last year I saw a guard sell a person a ticket without quibble and then try to point out to them that it's an offence not to buy in advance, and that therefore they can't rely on the next person being so helpful. The chap in question got so violently aggressive and threatening, apparently simply because he was being told what the rules were, that the last I saw of him was that he was lying face down on the platform in cuffs with two BTP officers sitting on him... Why do I mention this? Because, on the face of it, a happy medium is for the guard to be helpful but remind passengers of the rules, but they don't know if that is going to be a good idea. Perhaps they just leave the conflict to the Revenue Officers and get on with managing their train.

Rockhopper · 24 Jul 2019

Guards get commission for selling tickets so it’s to their advantage to allow it. Do they also get commission for issuing penalty fares?

LowLevel · 24 Jul 2019

It comes up regularly. We were quite happy for many decades where I work running our pay trains and dealing with fare evaders in our own way. Then along came the DfT and mandated a penalty fare system. Machines that don't sell the full range of tickets and are often broken and insufficient numbers of revenue inspectors to enforce the scheme effectively means that usually people just pay on the train as they have for the last 25 years. Then occasionally RPOs turn up and smack them all for 20 quid after they've spent the last 6 months buying off the guard.

I tried to be good when it was first introduced and explained about the scheme and buying before and as above you just get scrotes kicking off at the slightest hint of 'being a jobsworth'.

Consequently I just carry on as I did before, with the exception of flipping the ticket as I pass it over to say 'warning on the back', as well as making the odd announcement, and get on with surviving on routes that have their fair share of scummers kicking around.

nuts & bolts · 24 Jul 2019

Rockhopper said:
Guards get commission for selling tickets so it’s to their advantage to allow it. Do they also get commission for issuing penalty fares?

You are quite right on the commission bit, but there is the performance issue that they are measured with as well issuing 'Penalty Fare Warnings'. Guards & Conductors don't issue "Penalty Fares"!

thejuggler · 24 Jul 2019

Quite simple.

A Guard will ask if you have a ticket and sell you one if not. Some will advise you should buy before boarding, vast majority don't.

The RPI will ask if you have a ticket and give you a penalty if not.

RLBH · 24 Jul 2019

exile said:
Offer a small discount for tickets bought before boarding. Or, if you like, a small penalty for not doing so.

Which is achieved by the guard only selling undiscounted Anytime tickets, which is the official line on some TOCs - but of course even this runs the risk of people kicking up a fuss.

In fact, on my local DOO line, ScotRail's revenue protection people probably sell as many tickets as the stations do, and quite happily sell discounted tickets. As will the gateline staff. Attempting to enforce the buy-before-boarding policy would result in a lot of very unhappy passengers.

LowLevel · 24 Jul 2019

RLBH said:
Which is achieved by the guard only selling undiscounted Anytime tickets, which is the official line on some TOCs - but of course even this runs the risk of people kicking up a fuss.

In fact, on my local DOO line, ScotRail's revenue protection people probably sell as many tickets as the stations do, and quite happily sell discounted tickets. As will the gateline staff. Attempting to enforce the buy-before-boarding policy would result in a lot of very unhappy passengers.

ScotRail DOO trains are all meant to have a ticket examiner on board who are basically a non safety critical conductor. They're not revenue protection staff in the sense of an RPI. Examiner is the key word.

Mojo · 24 Jul 2019

LowLevel said:
ScotRail DOO trains are all meant to have a ticket examiner on board who are basically a non safety critical conductor. They're not revenue protection staff in the sense of an RPI. Examiner is the key word.

Although saying that GWR have the grade of “Ticket Examiner” who come under the Revenue Protection department and issue UPFNs and Penalty fares as well as selling tickets.

woodmally · 24 Jul 2019

Moriarty01 said:
I travel daily on SouthEastern Trains on the Maidstone East line with an annual season ticket.

There is a conductor onboard and each day he/she will pass through the train checking tickets and asking if anyone needs to buy a ticket. They do not ask why anyone buying a ticket did not do so before they boarded. It is a friendly exchange and helps create a general good atmosphere on the train.

Yesterday two Revenue Protection Officers passed through the train and the conductor stayed in their own area. Now, ofcourse, the situation was different and fines were issued to all those passengers who were reasonably expecting to buy a ticket on the train from the conductor.

So, what is going wrong with the system? Should SouthEastern conductors stop selling tickets onboard to passengers as it is putting passengers at risk of being fined if the next day there is an RPO onboard instead?

Andy

In short he made the situation worse. He should have done, what I have seen done several times, said I can sell you one but in future you should buy one before you board or you may get fined. That would cover him show hes generous and mean that you are not leading them into a false sense of security.

LowLevel · 24 Jul 2019

woodmally said:
In short he made the situation worse. He should have done, what I have seen done several times, said I can sell you one but in future you should buy one before you board or you may get fined. That would cover him show hes generous and mean that you are not leading them into a false sense of security.

Doesn't work. I don't go to work to get aggro for other people's poorly implemented bad ideas. I'm a guard not an RPI.

800002 · 24 Jul 2019

Moriarty01 said:
I travel daily on SouthEastern Trains on the Maidstone East line with an annual season ticket.

There is a conductor onboard and each day he/she will pass through the train checking tickets and asking if anyone needs to buy a ticket. They do not ask why anyone buying a ticket did not do so before they boarded. It is a friendly exchange and helps create a general good atmosphere on the train.

Yesterday two Revenue Protection Officers passed through the train and the conductor stayed in their own area. Now, ofcourse, the situation was different and fines were issued to all those passengers who were reasonably expecting to buy a ticket on the train from the conductor.

So, what is going wrong with the system? Should SouthEastern conductors stop selling tickets onboard to passengers as it is putting passengers at risk of being fined if the next day there is an RPO onboard instead?

Andy

I know a lot of people on this particular line pay cash - coins mostly, at that.

Do those machines take cash?
I'm not sure all of them, at lest not all of the time. They are unstaffed most of the time too.

800002 · 24 Jul 2019

LowLevel said:
Doesn't work. I don't go to work to get aggro for other people's poorly implemented bad ideas. I'm a guard not an RPI.

I've overheard numerous outright fare evaders say, to the effect of, 'they (the guard) all know me and know it aintworth it in trying it (asking me to pay)'.
You're not there to get abused or even intimidated with threats.

I think there is a reason RPI's tend to work in groups and not alone, like guards.

Moriarty01 · 24 Jul 2019

Thanks for all your comments on this.

It does sound like conductors are placed in an impossible situation in trying to maintain a balance between issuing tickets and warning passengers about the conditions of travel are.

Maybe it would be better if RPI only checked tickets at station entries and exits? Leave the checking of tickets on trains to the conductor?

sheff1 · 24 Jul 2019

Re the OP, my view is that when the RPOs are on board the guard should still go through the train as normal asking if anyone needs to buy a ticket. Once the guard has moved on to the next carriage the RPOs do a full check and will have a very convincing deliberate fare evasion case against anyone without a ticket. This was a method favoured by a senior TTI manager of my aquaintance in BR days who said it worked very succesfully .

800002 · 24 Jul 2019

Moriarty01 said:
Maybe it would be better if RPI only checked tickets at station entries and exits? Leave the checking of tickets on trains to the conductor?

That would be nice... The majority (and i stress, NOT ALL, but a sizable majority of SouthEastern RPI's) of RPI's that i have experienced, via witnessing them on the job, are very quick to anger and being generally disgruntled in their behavior and manners, that they simply invite conflict into the situation they are dealing with.
Roaming around in packs, also doesn't help to prevent things spiraling out of control, as colleagues intervene to 'assist'.

father_jack · 24 Jul 2019

Nobody has ever been sacked over not doing tickets.

However if you have multiple delays/assaults over £3 50 you won't exactly be popular with your boss at your "time with your manager meeting. Sad but reality.

You'll probably get away with it if you just sell one ticket a turn ! They'll look at shift sheets of only zero paid in and if there's a trend deal with it

bunnahabhain · 24 Jul 2019

I

father_jack said:
Nobody has ever been sacked over not doing tickets.

However if you have multiple delays/assaults over £3 50 you won't exactly be popular with your boss at your "time with your manager meeting. Sad but reality.

You'll probably get away with it if you just sell one ticket a turn ! They'll look at shift sheets of only zero paid in and if there's a trend deal with it

I know somebody who was put on a charge for not doing revenue duties.

Antman · 24 Jul 2019

Moriarty01 said:
I travel daily on SouthEastern Trains on the Maidstone East line with an annual season ticket.

There is a conductor onboard and each day he/she will pass through the train checking tickets and asking if anyone needs to buy a ticket. They do not ask why anyone buying a ticket did not do so before they boarded. It is a friendly exchange and helps create a general good atmosphere on the train.

Yesterday two Revenue Protection Officers passed through the train and the conductor stayed in their own area. Now, ofcourse, the situation was different and fines were issued to all those passengers who were reasonably expecting to buy a ticket on the train from the conductor.

So, what is going wrong with the system? Should SouthEastern conductors stop selling tickets onboard to passengers as it is putting passengers at risk of being fined if the next day there is an RPO onboard instead?

Andy

There are some stations on that line where you can't buy a ticket before boarding, no ticket office (or it's only open for a few hours in the morning) and a TVM that doesn't take cash. Clearly anybody boarding at those stations should not be penalised in any way. As you say guards will sell tickets without question and accept any relevant railcards and I don't see why revenue inspectors are needed? I do appreciate some people have a pay only if challenged attitude but I think the vast majority of people have no intention of avoiding payment indeed often somebody will approach the guard and ask to buy a ticket.

father_jack · 25 Jul 2019

bunnahabhain said:
I

I know somebody who was put on a charge for not doing revenue duties.

But certainly not in the first occasion...... Probably didn't sign out an "aptis", make it easy for the manglement

furlong · 25 Jul 2019

Moriarty01 said:
r stayed in their own area. Now, ofcourse, the situation was different and fines were issued to all those passengers who were reasonably expecting to buy a ticket on the train from the conductor.

Those passengers should appeal on the grounds you've given - i.e. that the company actively encourages this behaviour and therefore any penalty should not be enforceable - and if they don't win their appeals, they should try to escalate the matter as far as necessary with the help of the press/politicians/courts until the company backs down.

TrainBoy98 · 25 Jul 2019

From down in Southern land, a few things I've noticed.
There's an ever-increasing number of guards sit in the back cab of a 313 (I understand this isn't necessarily them shirking or anything) but then at stations like Hove you can get caught at the barriers because you don't have a ticket - which isnt necessarily your fault.

I say not necessarily your fault, as many times I've attempted to use the ticket machines at my local station, for it to be out of change, or not accepting card or just generally not working. This week I've even had one accept my card, but not print tickets, thankfully the station has an office open early mornings, and when I asked the guy there, he said it's because they're out in the heat all day, they just get stuck or stop working.

Finally, you have the issue of at stations such as Worthing, only one entrance/exit is barriered, so most evaders will simply use the other entrance, and can even get away without paying by simply saying "oh, Ive only used to subway to cross from the other side".

All adding up to arguments waiting to happen!

Mathew S · 25 Jul 2019

Pluto said:
There are some stations on that line where you can't buy a ticket before boarding, no ticket office (or it's only open for a few hours in the morning) and a TVM that doesn't take cash. Clearly anybody boarding at those stations should not be penalised in any way. As you say guards will sell tickets without question and accept any relevant railcards and I don't see why revenue inspectors are needed? I do appreciate some people have a pay only if challenged attitude but I think the vast majority of people have no intention of avoiding payment indeed often somebody will approach the guard and ask to buy a ticket.

Unless the people boarding at those stations have a card, or other payment device, which they can use with the machine. If you only have cash and that's the only way you can pay, fair enough, but we all know that, in 2019, that's not a high percentage of people.

800002 · 25 Jul 2019

Mathew S said:
Unless the people boarding at those stations have a card, or other payment device, which they can use with the machine. If you only have cash and that's the only way you can pay, fair enough, but we all know that, in 2019, that's not a high percentage of people.

I'm not sure or not if the rules stipulate that if you have a card, you must use it (if the facility is available), or face a penalty fare / prosecution.
That would simply be a non-starter in my opinion.

Class83 · 25 Jul 2019

I always thought that the rule was that if there was a ticket office you had to use it (or were at best getting an undiscounted single/return onboard), but if it was just a machine, you could but didn't have to, so could by all tickets onboard. Though not sure if that's a TOC or national rule.

Another problem where some stations lack machines or offices, is that if it's busy and the guard doesn't get round to you, the ticket selling facilities provided before the barrier at termini are often limited with long queues. Which I understand as a disincentive to chancers, but it's not great for those legitimately travelling from unstaffed stations.

Role of Conductor and Revenue Protection Officers

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