ATW/Keolis Amey Wales stock shortages

Cardiff123 · 23 Jul 2019

tomwills98 said:
I don't think they've been used for staff training properly yet so I'll assume mechanical, but even then I don't know what's wrong with them. Have Northern got their's in service yet? (I know there's a thread, just a simple yes/no)

769s are not in passenger service anywhere in the UK

RailUK Forums

Jez · 23 Jul 2019

I noticed a pacer ran the Cardiff-Pembroke Dock yesterday morning (the one that passes Neath around 7.30am) I wonder if this was because of stock shortage or whether due to it being high summer now its booked 2 car (usually formed of a single 153). Extra 153s needed for HOW/Royal Welsh special this week could have had an impact. It would make sense to swap a pacer for a 153 on the city line/Pembroke dock for the high summer period although I expect that would create complaints of less carriages on the city line!

Going back to what was discussed about the 170s a few pages back. It would make sense for them to deputise for the 175s on South Wales-Manchester rather than 150s as ive always found 170s perfectly fine for long distance journeys when ive travelled from Birmingham-Newport/Cardiff.

PHILIPE · 23 Jul 2019

Jez said:
I noticed a pacer ran the Cardiff-Pembroke Dock yesterday morning (the one that passes Neath around 7.30am) I wonder if this was because of stock shortage or whether due to it being high summer now its booked 2 car (usually formed of a single 153). Extra 153s needed for HOW/Royal Welsh special this week could have had an impact. It would make sense to swap a pacer for a 153 on the city line/Pembroke dock for the high summer period although I expect that would create complaints of less carriages on the city line!

Going back to what was discussed about the 170s a few pages back. It would make sense for them to deputise for the 175s on South Wales-Manchester rather than 150s as ive always found 170s perfectly fine for long distance journeys when ive travelled from Birmingham-Newport/Cardiff.

The Rolling Stock Plan is for 170s to work Maesteg/Cheltenham/Ebbw Vale. If they went onto the Marches it would involve extensive Traction training involving other Depots. The Pembroke Dock service always goes up to 2 Cars during the School Holidays in the Summer.

craigybagel · 24 Jul 2019

PHILIPE said:
The Rolling Stock Plan is for 170s to work Maesteg/Cheltenham/Ebbw Vale. If they went onto the Marches it would involve extensive Traction training involving other Depots.

The rolling stock plan WAS for 170s to work those routes. That doesn't mean that those plans won't change. 37s never featured in those plans after all....

Nick Ashwell · 24 Jul 2019

But the cost and time training so many staff so quickly would be insane! Would be better surely to use them as planned, allowing 158s that often work the line to work routes where the staff are trained, I personally prefer the 158 over the 170 for longer distance journeys.

craigybagel · 24 Jul 2019

Nick Ashwell said:
But the cost and time training so many staff so quickly would be insane! Would be better surely to use them as planned, allowing 158s that often work the line to work routes where the staff are trained, I personally prefer the 158 over the 170 for longer distance journeys.

But that training is going to take to take place anyway, since nobody at TfW signs 170s. It's just a question of who you train first.

sw1ller · 24 Jul 2019

craigybagel said:
But that training is going to take to take place anyway, since nobody at TfW signs 170s. It's just a question of who you train first.

Are they much different than a 175? Would it be a full traction course or a shortened conversion?

krus_aragon · 24 Jul 2019

sw1ller said:
Are they much different than a 175? Would it be a full traction course or a shortened conversion?

Built independently by a different manufacturer, I wouldn't expect much technical similarity to them. They just have a similar number because they were first built at a similar time.

tomwills98 · 24 Jul 2019

Thanks @Cardiff123, thought that was the case but wasn't sure.

I thought 170's were meant to be used on the Heart of Wales up to Crewe so would that be Cardiff and Carmarthen crew to be trained?

krus_aragon · 24 Jul 2019

tomwills98 said:
Thanks @Cardiff123, thought that was the case but wasn't sure.

I thought 170's were meant to be used on the Heart of Wales up to Crewe so would that be Cardiff and Carmarthen crew to be trained?

They were planned to be, but after the Civity stock's been delivered (and the 150s are withdrawn). As said, plans change when confronted with real life, so guarantees are rather slim.

Envoy · 24 Jul 2019

Nick Ashwell said:
But the cost and time training so many staff so quickly would be insane! Would be better surely to use them as planned, allowing 158s that often work the line to work routes where the staff are trained, I personally prefer the 158 over the 170 for longer distance journeys.

I was on a 158 yesterday afternoon coming down the Marches (Manchester to Milford service). The air conditioning had failed yet again - in both coaches. These trains are simply totally unreliable regarding air conditioning and the sooner they are gone, the better. I have yet to be on a 170 where the air conditioning has failed throughout. I also note that the 170’s have lovely large windows with narrow pillars therefore giving excellent visibility outside.

tomwills98 · 24 Jul 2019

Envoy said:
I was on a 158 yesterday afternoon coming down the Marches (Manchester to Milford service). The air conditioning had failed yet again - in both coaches. These trains are simply totally unreliable regarding air conditioning and the sooner they are gone, the better. I have yet to be on a 170 where the air conditioning has failed throughout. I also note that the 170’s have lovely large windows with narrow pillars therefore giving excellent visibility outside.

I've been on a couple of 170's and have yet to have the aircon fail, that said I'm sure it's happened before.

I believe there are plans to fit new aircon to the 158's either during internal refurb or just after. I haven't been on one this summer where it's worked, better off fitting a sunroof or making it a convertible. :lol:

Sion John · 24 Jul 2019

Jez said:
I noticed a pacer ran the Cardiff-Pembroke Dock yesterday morning (the one that passes Neath around 7.30am) I wonder if this was because of stock shortage or whether due to it being high summer now its booked 2 car (usually formed of a single 153). Extra 153s needed for HOW/Royal Welsh special this week could have had an impact. It would make sense to swap a pacer for a 153 on the city line/Pembroke dock for the high summer period although I expect that would create complaints of less carriages on the city line!

Going back to what was discussed about the 170s a few pages back. It would make sense for them to deputise for the 175s on South Wales-Manchester rather than 150s as ive always found 170s perfectly fine for long distance journeys when ive travelled from Birmingham-Newport/Cardiff.

A pacer has always done Pembroke docks

craigybagel · 24 Jul 2019

sw1ller said:
Are they much different than a 175? Would it be a full traction course or a shortened conversion?

Single power brake controller like a 175 - but with 3 brake steps and 7 throttle notches like a 15x (which they can multiple with). Not sure about the technicalities but it can't be as big a difference as that as between a 150 and a 175 and that's apparently only a conversion course.

tomwills98 said:
I thought 170's were meant to be used on the Heart of Wales up to Crewe so would that be Cardiff and Carmarthen crew to be trained?

Plan was meant to be for them to initially be for Cardiff - Maesteg/Ebbw Vale/Cheltenham which are all exclusively Cardiff work. When the new Stadler units arrive for those services 170s were meant to go on West Wales branches, Heart of Wales and Crewe - Shrewsbury locals, which would if staffed as they are today require Carmarthen, Shrewsbury, Crewe and some Chester crew to sign them.

sw1ller · 24 Jul 2019

A 150-175 is not a conversion course pal. Not even nearly the same. Had a bloke on my course that helped introduce the 175s but buggered off up the Cambrian for a couple of years. Had to do the full two weeks again.

Eccles1983 · 24 Jul 2019

sw1ller said:
A 150-175 is not a conversion course pal. Not even nearly the same. Had a bloke on my course that helped introduce the 175s but buggered off up the Cambrian for a couple of years. Had to do the full two weeks again.

I hear you. It's not a conversion course as every system is completely different.

It's a completely different beast, the only comparison is that they both run on rails.

The 170 cab is similar to a 175, but mechanically similar to a 158.

craigybagel · 24 Jul 2019

sw1ller said:
A 150-175 is not a conversion course pal. Not even nearly the same. Had a bloke on my course that helped introduce the 175s but buggered off up the Cambrian for a couple of years. Had to do the full two weeks again.

Yeah I figured, I'm just going by the terminology we've been told in thy training school. Sign 150s in training, and then everything else is a conversion from that. I know we're still pencilled in for 3 weeks of conversions to the 3 other DMUs we need to learn.

sw1ller · 24 Jul 2019

craigybagel said:
Yeah I figured, I'm just going by the terminology we've been told in thy training school. Sign 150s in training, and then everything else is a conversion from that. I know we're still pencilled in for 3 weeks of conversions to the 3 other DMUs we need to learn.

Will you do 153’s?? That’ll come later and it’s just a day. I don’t think you need 5 days on a 158 either, but it won’t hurt. The 175 is just completely different, ya need the full 2 weeks on that.

Chris217 · 24 Jul 2019

Pacers!
Coolest train to ride on
a day like yesterday.

No need for air con.
Just open all the window vents and
get your wig blown off hehe.

craigybagel · 25 Jul 2019

sw1ller said:
Will you do 153’s?? That’ll come later and it’s just a day. I don’t think you need 5 days on a 158 either, but it won’t hurt. The 175 is just completely different, ya need the full 2 weeks on that.

Yeah, I'll be doing 153s, plenty of work on them at my place at present, even if the rumoured 150/153 South/North divide doesn't take place.

Getting back on topic less the moderators get upset with us, I had indeed heard of the 1 day conversion course for 153s - so if the rumoured move north fit the whole fleet to replace 150s are true, it wouldn't be too hard to get people trained up on them.

Now, this is entering entirely into the realms of fantasy and is not based on anything definite, but I've been doing some maths in my head. TfW will have 13 units. They could form these as 6 X 2 car sets, with 1 accessible toilet per 2 car (the other car having it's toilet removed), which would get around the problem that a 153 with a PRM toilet doesn't have a lot of space for anything else. The 6 X 2 153s could work out as:
1 Blaneau
1 Chester - Crewe
3 HOWL/Shrewsbury - Crewe local
1 spare.
Rotating through Crewe depot they'd never need to go south for maintenance.
This would also leave 1 single spare 153 - which I would suggest is left toiletless and used permanently on Cardiff Bay. Yes it would mean a microfleet of 1 153 in the South, but that exact situation occurred before with the 121 bubble car years ago. At least this unit could be swapped with one of the toiletless units in the North for maintenance purposes.

With Wrexham - Bidston going over to 230s, that would leave Chester - Liverpool as the only 150 work in the North, which is often covered by 158s/175s. If this was done permanently it would see the end of 150s North of Hereford altogether.

Like I say, this isn't based on any insider knowledge at all, it's purely hypothetical maths - but I just wanted to prove that it could be done, if TfW wanted to.

realaledrinker · 25 Jul 2019

Mmm. Double 158 in the sidings alongside Chester station all today. 175107 sitting in Platform 0 all afternoon bellowing fumes into the station (why do TfW leave their engines running during turns??). No doubt valid reasons but there does seem to be a bit of slack in there.

craigybagel · 25 Jul 2019

realaledrinker said:
Mmm. Double 158 in the sidings alongside Chester station all today. 175107 sitting in Platform 0 all afternoon bellowing fumes into the station (why do TfW leave their engines running during turns??). No doubt valid reasons but there does seem to be a bit of slack in there.

No trains running Chester - Manchester at the moment during the Acton Grange Junction block.

TfW do not routinely leave engines running - in fact, if there isn't a driver with their key switched in to one of the cabs the engines will shut down automatically.

anamyd · 26 Jul 2019

LNW-GW Joint said:
Refurbished units in the TfW fleet are now appearing with Wales & Borders branding.
That's the first time the franchise has recognized the "borders" in its branding.

One of these is 175 107, which was reduced to 2 coaches

All old news

anamyd · 26 Jul 2019

tomwills98 said:
Have Northern got their's in service yet? (I know there's a thread, just a simple yes/no)

no!!!

anamyd · 26 Jul 2019

craigybagel said:
Yeah, I'll be doing 153s, plenty of work on them at my place at present, even if the rumoured 150/153 South/North divide doesn't take place.

Getting back on topic less the moderators get upset with us, I had indeed heard of the 1 day conversion course for 153s - so if the rumoured move north fit the whole fleet to replace 150s are true, it wouldn't be too hard to get people trained up on them.

Now, this is entering entirely into the realms of fantasy and is not based on anything definite, but I've been doing some maths in my head. TfW will have 13 units. They could form these as 6 X 2 car sets, with 1 accessible toilet per 2 car (the other car having it's toilet removed), which would get around the problem that a 153 with a PRM toilet doesn't have a lot of space for anything else. The 6 X 2 153s could work out as:
1 Blaneau
1 Chester - Crewe
3 HOWL/Shrewsbury - Crewe local
1 spare.
Rotating through Crewe depot they'd never need to go south for maintenance.
This would also leave 1 single spare 153 - which I would suggest is left toiletless and used permanently on Cardiff Bay. Yes it would mean a microfleet of 1 153 in the South, but that exact situation occurred before with the 121 bubble car years ago. At least this unit could be swapped with one of the toiletless units in the North for maintenance purposes.

With Wrexham - Bidston going over to 230s, that would leave Chester - Liverpool as the only 150 work in the North, which is often covered by 158s/175s. If this was done permanently it would see the end of 150s North of Hereford altogether.

Like I say, this isn't based on any insider knowledge at all, it's purely hypothetical maths - but I just wanted to prove that it could be done, if TfW wanted to.

I noticed in RAIL 883 pages 28-29 there is mention of 5 153s leaving, if I recall correctly, Greater Anglia with no home to go to, and even 3...? 153s being in storage (I wonder whose those are...?) which is significant for the Sprinter family as those units ought to be doing something somewhere, being DMUs. Could TfW take on those 5 153s to add to their 13, so they then have 18 of the things...?

ValleyLines142 · 26 Jul 2019

Envoy said:
I also note that the 170’s have lovely large windows with narrow pillars therefore giving excellent visibility outside.

Unfortunately downed by the fact that hardly any of the seats align with the windows and the leg room on the 170s is APPALLING. I either need to book a priority seat or not board at all.

507021 · 26 Jul 2019

anamyd said:
3...? 153s being in storage (I wonder whose those are...?)

3 of the 5 luggage vans for ScotRail.

anamyd · 27 Jul 2019

507021 said:
3 of the 5 luggage vans for ScotRail.

thought they might have been. do you know about the 5 153s coming off Greater Anglia...?

Rhydgaled · 27 Jul 2019

DanTrainMan185 said:
the leg room on the 170s is APPALLING. I either need to book a priority seat or not board at all.

Do all 170s have the same interior layout? The legroom on ATW/TfW Pacers/150s/153s (which seem to me to be the same seat pitch as each other) is pretty dire, but I once boarded an airline seat on an XC 170 and thought 'this legroom might even be worse than a 150'. However, on the other occasion that I've sat in airline on a 170 (possibly I Greater Anglia unit) I seem to recall that it was not great but not quite as bad as a 150 either. Perhaps I got a priority seat by chance that time, either that or the 170s that are coming to Wales are not as bad as the XC ones.

anamyd said:
thought they might have been. do you know about the 5 153s coming off Greater Anglia...?

I don't suppose any DMUs (whether 170s or 153s) will be coming off Anglia until a good number of their new bi-mode FLIRTs are in service. According to other topics on here, the first few FLIRTs will replace the class 37 hauled set that runs out of Norwich. Whether they release 153s or 170s first after that I've no idea; it might depend on whether TfW's lease contract for the 170s trumps GA's need to get rid of the non-PRM 153s before 2020.

ValleyLines142 · 27 Jul 2019

Rhydgaled said:
Do all 170s have the same interior layout? The legroom on ATW/TfW Pacers/150s/153s (which seem to me to be the same seat pitch as each other) is pretty dire, but I once boarded an airline seat on an XC 170 and thought 'this legroom might even be worse than a 150'. However, on the other occasion that I've sat in airline on a 170 (possibly I Greater Anglia unit) I seem to recall that it was not great but not quite as bad as a 150 either. Perhaps I got a priority seat by chance that time, either that or the 170s that are coming to Wales are not as bad as the XC ones.

I've only been on CrossCountry, ScotRail and WMR 170s, but they are all the same layout. Last week I boarded a 170 from Birmingham and I had to ask my other half for us to move to the opposite side as the legroom was so poor. He's only 5ft 4 and even he said it was tight for him (I'm 6ft 4) :lol:

Staying on topic, I don't know what oned TfW would have but they need to have decent leg room.

The best for leg room is the 175s.

ATW/Keolis Amey Wales stock shortages

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