Southeastern to run "significantly reduced" service due to heat

ScotGG · 24 Jul 2019

How many TOCs have announced things like this?

https://www.fromthemurkydepths.co.u...to-be-significantly-cut-tomorrow-due-to-heat/

As it points out running fewer trains on a working weekday at short notice (albeit summer holidays) is ripe for overcrowding on those services remaining. No London suburban Southeastern stock has air con. Not many can simply not go to work.

Could we see another Lewisham type incident if any problems arise with people decamping from overcrowded trains if waiting too long? And in this heat any time on a networker is not much fun with a normal service. Is it better to run no trains at all or a full service at restricted speed - though admittedly that sounds a nightmare to plan but still better than significantly reduced?

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Bletchleyite · 24 Jul 2019

ScotGG said:
Could we see another Lewisham type incident if any problems arise with people decamping from overcrowded trains if waiting too long

I would expect that with an aircon failure and a stuck train the egress is going to be pulled VERY quickly. TOCs will need to be aware of that and act accordingly, such as prioritising evacuations over getting the service going again.

edwin_m · 24 Jul 2019

A traction power failure would take out aircon for a whole train or even several, straining the resources of the staff responsible for evacuations. And a hot day is likely to turn a marginal bit of power supply equipment into a failure - cutting the service will reduce the thermal loads so should help with this.

So even where fitted aircon can't really be relied upon to prevent passengers pulling the emergency handle. At least SouthEastern is getting the message out so anyone who can work at home or take the day off will do so.

ScotGG · 24 Jul 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I would expect that with an aircon failure and a stuck train the egress is going to be pulled VERY quickly. TOCs will need to be aware of that and act accordingly, such as prioritising evacuations over getting the service going again.

There is no aircon on any SE Metro train. A short delay in an overcrowded train and people will look to get out

Jozhua · 24 Jul 2019

They'll probably be suprised again after leaving a stranded train for three hours with no toilets and people passing out that people start to leave onto the tracks, no doubt they'll try and frame it like the passenges are in the wrong...

Oh well at least they seem to be considering the effects on their network ahead of time. How come other areas haven't announced any disruption yet? Is it just because the area they are serving is probably going to he the warmest in the country?

aleggatta · 24 Jul 2019

I'm surprised that it has never been a franchise commitment to fit A/C to the 376's at least, it's a simple module change and, with the relevant modules available could be completed with very little impact on unit availability due to the simplicity in the module change.

Peter C · 24 Jul 2019

I've heard of heritage lines stopping services in hot weather in case they set the lineside alight, but a mainline TOC? No!
Really, the Cotswolds is really only slightly colder than London today, and GWR are keeping all the usual trains running.

-Peter

Bayum · 24 Jul 2019

Why are SE at a greater risk of developing buckled rails? That’s what the TOC seem to be inferring from this. I get they have a high frequency network, but so do SWR?

30907 · 24 Jul 2019

Southern /GTR have made a similar announcement. Blanket (!) 60mph limit and fewer trains. Greater Anglia for the afternoon/evening too.
And it has happened before for a variety of reasons.

Trackman · 24 Jul 2019

gawd, Met office reckons it will reach 37C (98.6F in old money) in Lewisham tomorrow.

ScotGG · 24 Jul 2019

aleggatta said:
I'm surprised that it has never been a franchise commitment to fit A/C to the 376's at least, it's a simple module change and, with the relevant modules available could be completed with very little impact on unit availability due to the simplicity in the module change.

Years of short term extensions means very little forward planning or investment. No new stock for 13 years and no refurbs to any 376s or networkers except a very bare bones job for disability rules (and even then 466s aren't getting it)

Bromley boy · 24 Jul 2019

In fairness to SE at least they’ve been proactive in trying to warn people of potential problems in advance.

I remember on the day of the Lewisham incident (albeit the opposite type of extreme weather to today’s!), they had issued warnings to avoid travelling if possible, and were criticised on here for doing so.

Mountain Man · 24 Jul 2019

Peter C said:
I've heard of heritage lines stopping services in hot weather in case they set the lineside alight, but a mainline TOC? No!
Really, the Cotswolds is really only slightly colder than London today, and GWR are keeping all the usual trains running.

-Peter

Don't believe the weather forecast temps. The urban environment has a significant additional effect

sprunt · 24 Jul 2019

While I understand the problem, I think there should be more clarity at this point about exactly what is running tomorrow - Great Northern, certainly, are more or less saying "Wait and see" at the moment. Given that this is likely to become more frequent as temperatures rise, would it be a good idea for TOCs to have a published extreme heat timetable, so that they could just say "We'll be running the heat timetable tomorrow." and everyone would know where they are?

manxqueenies · 24 Jul 2019

I have just arrived at EUS and on arrival the Virgin guard gave a significant (as in long) announcement advising that network rail has put a 90mph restriction on lines tomorrow- no idea about truth in this but customers directed to get reservations for tomorrow due to crowding on less trains- reason is that its hottest day forecast...

paul1609 · 24 Jul 2019

aleggatta said:
I'm surprised that it has never been a franchise commitment to fit A/C to the 376's at least, it's a simple module change and, with the relevant modules available could be completed with very little impact on unit availability due to the simplicity in the module change.

As i understand the situation fitting a/c to the Southeastern Metro fleet would require some very expensive upgrades to the third rail power supply with some difficult supply issues in South East London.

ScotGG · 24 Jul 2019

Heard that before Thameslink started running through mind.

With SE Metro there's always excuses. It's time to invest. More stabling space. Power Upgrades. The area is one of the top areas for population growth in London and the UK

EM2 · 24 Jul 2019

ScotGG said:
...a full service at restricted speed - though admittedly that sounds a nightmare to plan but still better than significantly reduced?

This is an oxymoron.

aleggatta · 24 Jul 2019

paul1609 said:
As i understand the situation fitting a/c to the Southeastern Metro fleet would require some very expensive upgrades to the third rail power supply with some difficult supply issues in South East London.

it would be interesting to know the difference between a 5 car 376, a 5 car 377 and a 5 car 378 on power consumption...

hwl · 24 Jul 2019

paul1609 said:
As i understand the situation fitting a/c to the Southeastern Metro fleet would require some very expensive upgrades to the third rail power supply with some difficult supply issues in South East London.

@30-35kW/car including ventilation (so less of an increase in reality), not exactly that large.
The original reason for not fitting A/C was that they thought the frequency of stops would make it impossible for the A/C to work effectively, this has been proven to not be the case by later modelling and in practice.

The power consumption of new generation stock will be lower due to less mass.

A lot of the SE metro area has had power supply upgrades over the last few years.

Bromley boy · 24 Jul 2019

ScotGG said:
Heard that before Thameslink started running through mind.

With SE Metro there's always excuses. It's time to invest. More stabling space. Power Upgrades. The area is one of the top areas for population growth in London and the UK

Excuses or sensible operational considerations? The railway operates on Victorian infrastructure, and delivers an excellent service considering.

It makes no economic sense to invest heavily to prevent disruption due to extreme weather events occurring every few years.

EM2 said:
This is an oxymoron.

Indeed.

Something that will no doubt fail to be appreciated by many people, including posters on here!

Peter C · 24 Jul 2019

Mountain Man said:
Don't believe the weather forecast temps. The urban environment has a significant additional effect

Thought it was a bit off - London is always 1billion degrees!

-Peter

causton · 24 Jul 2019

manxqueenies said:
I have just arrived at EUS and on arrival the Virgin guard gave a significant (as in long) announcement advising that network rail has put a 90mph restriction on lines tomorrow- no idea about truth in this but customers directed to get reservations for tomorrow due to crowding on less trains- reason is that its hottest day forecast...

Same, left on the 1710 Birmingham - Euston and at Coventry and MKC the guard announced that there would be disruptions due to the blanket speed restriction so set off earlier or work from home. I'll be doing the latter!

Esker-pades · 24 Jul 2019

EM2 said:
This is an oxymoron.

How?.

Bromley boy · 24 Jul 2019

FelixtheCat said:
How?.

Because running trains at reduced speed restricts network capacity and will prevent a “full” service from being operated.

EM2 · 24 Jul 2019

^^^
Exactly that.
The timetable is planned based on the full capabilities of the network. If no services are running at line speed, then the full service cannot operate.

bramling · 24 Jul 2019

FelixtheCat said:
How?.

Because if trains can’t run at their planned speed then they won’t complete their journeys on time. Unless there’s enough recovery time at the terminus for both the train and the driver, or unless some other recovery measure like turning short is implemented, their next services will start late, lose more time, and eventually the whole timetable falls apart.

Furthermore, with trains not running on their planned paths, there will be clashes at junctions and with stopping patterns (faster services stuck behind slower ones), so this will cause extra delays on top of those caused by running at slower speed.

urpert · 24 Jul 2019

aleggatta said:
I'm surprised that it has never been a franchise commitment to fit A/C to the 376's at least, it's a simple module change and, with the relevant modules available could be completed with very little impact on unit availability due to the simplicity in the module change.

In the same way, nothing has been done about the Connex-era interiors of the 376s. I always had the impression there was a plan to order more and replace as much of the suburban fleet as possible, but when that didn’t happen, the few that were built ended up as something of an embarrassment with no further investment heading their way.

I have a soft spot for them, the interiors work much better for an inner suburban unit than Networkers do.

Trackman · 24 Jul 2019

Peter C said:
Thought it was a bit off - London is always 1billion degrees!

-Peter

whatever the weather app says, add on 2 to 4C

geoffk · 24 Jul 2019

Not my area but don't the 365s have opening ventilators in the windows?

Southeastern to run "significantly reduced" service due to heat

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