Heat related issues (25 July 2019 and subsequent days)

reddragon · 25 Jul 2019

I have done jobs on track crossing and in the winter, they are desperate that we don't 'cut the rails'. We can move sleepers & ballast and work in between, get longer access but don't cut the rails. Apparently stressing in the cold is a problem on old rails, it takes too long & they might break. They have to come back when its warmer to redo it for 27C.

In the summer cutting rails to do a job is fine if you have to. Not sure how you would do a job when above 27C! Maybe de-stressing would be required later!!

RailUK Forums

AM9 · 25 Jul 2019

westv said:
Isn't that just swapping one bit of craziness for another?

Clearly the emoticon was wasted.

bb21 · 25 Jul 2019

Please keep bitching off the thread. Thank you.

Ianno87 · 25 Jul 2019

Peter C said:
The UK rail system is very good when you consider that:

-A lot of the stations are over 200 years old
-A lot of the trains are 30 years old
-The system is the oldest in the world and when it was designed it had no other system to learn from
-The system is so big that, yes, you may want the system improved, it is not possible to just "improve" everything overnight.

-Peter

And with the level of utilisation of track capacity in the UK, things go "tits up" much quicker from the initial problem than is the case in other countries as more trains and passengers get stuck, that generally don't operate their networks to the same level of usage.

Peter C · 25 Jul 2019

Ianno87 said:
And with the level of utilisation of track capacity in the UK, things go "tits up" much quicker from the initial problem than is the case in other countries as more trains and passengers get stuck, that generally don't operate their networks to the same level of usage.

Yep. That's another thing - the railways are used by more people than you'd think.

-Peter

158756 · 25 Jul 2019

modernrail said:
Do we have a genuinley wide spread of temperatures compared to other places? I would have thought the NE corridor from Washington to Boston has a much wider and consistent spread. What happens with the rail there I wonder? I pick this example because the Americans are notorious for underspending on infrastructure resilience..maybe the service is just subject to big delays in hot/cold weather?

No we don't have a particularly wide spread of temperatures. Recorded temperatures in London range from -13 to 38, contrast to New York's range of -26 to 41, Chicago -32 to 43, for a European example, Warsaw -24 to 37. Most of Western Europe is at least similar to us.

Bald Rick · 25 Jul 2019

DarloRich said:
Is the issue today that speed restrictions are being imposed widely because of the high expected temperature rather than because of any recent work? It is said today may be the hottest on record!

I suspect it’s both. The relevant track maintenance engineers will know the Critical Rail temperatures of every piece of rail on their patch. There are three stages of intervention, implemented as rail temperature increases:

CRT (W) - where a watchman (watchperson?) is deployed to site to continually observe the state of the rail

CRT (30/60) - speed restriction of 30/60 (30 for freight, 60 for passenger)

CRT (20) - speed restriction of 20 for all traffic.

I forget the temperature increase between each, but it’s only a few degrees.

There will be a lot of sites with CRTs a few degrees below the usual, because of work done over recent weeks. Under normal summer conditions this doesn’t matter. But at this temperature, it does. Very soon the Track Maintenance Engineer will run out of watchmen, which automatically triggers the need for the 30/60 speed restriction on any site that has reached CRT (W) but no watchman. Then you start to r7n out of people to erect the speed restriction boards (they are the same people), so the only course of action is to impose a blanket restriction covering all the likely sites.

It is unlikely that temperatures will exceed that necessary for a speed restriction on lines with an SFT of 27C and no recent work (ie CRT (W) of, IIRC, 59C), as that implies air temperature of 41C+.

colchesterken · 25 Jul 2019

Colchester Town cut off for 2 days. Overhead line problems . Trains running on the direct line to Wivenhoe but not around the junction
The whole line was rebuilt about 10 yrs ago, new track, signals, and I assume the knitting
Anyone know what went wrong?

Bald Rick · 25 Jul 2019

colchesterken said:
Colchester Town cut off for 2 days. Overhead line problems . Trains running on the direct line to Wivenhoe but not around the junction
The whole line was rebuilt about 10 yrs ago, new track, signals, and I assume the knitting
Anyone know what went wrong?

Your assumption about the OLE is unlikely to be correct; I’d be very surprised if it was renewed.

Wirewiper · 25 Jul 2019

GWR is advising that speed restrictions will apply between London Paddington and Didcot Parkway between 12.00 and 20.00 today (Thursday 25th), and also between Didcot Parkway and Banbury.

The XX.15 London Paddington - Cardiff Central and the XX.56 Cardiff Central - London Paddington services are cancelled.

GWR tickets dated for today will be accepted for travel on Friday 26th.

scotraildriver · 25 Jul 2019

158756 said:
No we don't have a particularly wide spread of temperatures. Recorded temperatures in London range from -13 to 38, contrast to New York's range of -26 to 41, Chicago -32 to 43, for a European example, Warsaw -24 to 37. Most of Western Europe is at least similar to us.

Yes. And they all have temperature related railway issue. The advice in France today for example is don't travel. https://en.oui.sncf/en/help-en/disruption-information-latest-update-exchanges-and-refunds

66Yorks · 25 Jul 2019

Great post.

king_walnut said:
Just to explain to people why these restrictions are in place:

Metal rails expand when they get hot. That's physics. If you welded them together at 10C and the temperature jumps to 30C, then the expansion will result in the rails wiggling as there's no room for them to expand, so they end up getting squished and they can buckle.

Engineers account for this by essentially stretching them when they're welded together. That way the heat will cause the rails to come back into their pre-stretched state instead of having them wiggle. If it's hotter than the pre-stretching compensated for then they'll still expand to the point of getting squished, alas the train can't go at full speed because it's dangerous to do so along rails that aren't straight.

As you might guess, the process of pre-stretching them costs money, and the price increases the more they're stretched. Someone somewhere crunched the numbers on what temperature it's worth spending money on dealing with (also accounting for winter lows) and that's how we have what we have.

Countries that have hotter summers will have also done these calculations and come up with a higher number, which is why you hear cries of "But the trains are running fine in Mexico and it's 40C!!!!", it's because it's common enough to spend money coping with it there but not here.

So yes it's annoying, but maybe knowing the reason will help a bit.

broadgage · 25 Jul 2019

al78 said:
Nol they don't, the robustness of the UK rail network is poor in my experience. It goes tits up in hot weather, tits up in cold weather, tits up in wet weather, tits up if the sun shines a bit too bright, tits up when it snows. I'm just glad I have a home and a job close to each other so that I don't rely on it.

Tits up is now regarded as politically incorrect. The approved term is "milk glands uppermost"

westv · 25 Jul 2019

Has there been a decline in passenger numbers today? or too early to tell?

hick · 25 Jul 2019

Bald Rick said:
I suspect it’s both. The relevant track maintenance engineers will know the Critical Rail temperatures of every piece of rail on their patch. There are three stages of intervention, implemented as rail temperature increases:

CRT (W) - where a watchman (watchperson?) is deployed to site to continually observe the state of the rail

CRT (30/60) - speed restriction of 30/60 (30 for freight, 60 for passenger)

CRT (20) - speed restriction of 20 for all traffic.

I forget the temperature increase between each, but it’s only a few degrees.

There will be a lot of sites with CRTs a few degrees below the usual, because of work done over recent weeks. Under normal summer conditions this doesn’t matter. But at this temperature, it does. Very soon the Track Maintenance Engineer will run out of watchmen, which automatically triggers the need for the 30/60 speed restriction on any site that has reached CRT (W) but no watchman. Then you start to r7n out of people to erect the speed restriction boards (they are the same people), so the only course of action is to impose a blanket restriction covering all the likely sites.

It is unlikely that temperatures will exceed that necessary for a speed restriction on lines with an SFT of 27C and no recent work (ie CRT (W) of, IIRC, 59C), as that implies air temperature of 41C+.

The whole of Anglia and Sussex are on 30/60 this afternoon

FrodshamJnct · 25 Jul 2019

Whole of Euston has gone down apparently. OHLE issue.

GB · 25 Jul 2019

hick said:
The whole of Anglia and Sussex are on 30/60 this afternoon

Blanket ban on running freights in Anglia between 1200-2000 too.

DimTim · 25 Jul 2019

Colleague sat on 1D16 at Kings Cross moved train twice. Initially doors would not close at departure time. Now nothing moving reported points failure.

tsr · 25 Jul 2019

Tom Maddox said:
Whole of Euston has gone down apparently. OHLE issue.

A number of lines have now reopened but Platforms 1-4 are closed, as well as a couple of lines outside the station. Train 1H27 has the wires down on or very near the train, and evacuation plans are being made.

Of equal concern, 9K56 is also at a stand in the Soho area due to the wires down behind the train. Some other issues reported elsewhere as well.

westv · 25 Jul 2019

I really do think it's a bit mean that LNER advise people not to travel today but then expect them to only travel close to their original time on the alternative days.

TravellingPhil · 25 Jul 2019

The West Midlands is starting to fall apart now. OHLE problems on both the trains and trams between Birmingham and Wolverhampton. Some very packed, hot buses to come I should imagine.

londonmidland · 25 Jul 2019

Wires down between Sandwell and Dudley and Birmingham New Street. Open to diesel traffic only.

Report of damage to the over head wires between Oxenholme Lake District and Penrith North Lakes.

Major delays in and out of Euston.

The Planner · 25 Jul 2019

Indeed, P1-4 and Line X out at Euston, wires at Soho on the up in Brum and sections tripping on the up at Curzon St. Going to be interesting soon at New St.

Darandio · 25 Jul 2019

westv said:
I really do think it's a bit mean that LNER advise people not to travel today but then expect them to only travel close to their original time on the alternative days.

I'd imagine they are mainly thinking about tomorrow when it's likely to have been busy anyway. If everyone not travelling today turned up for the first few trains in the morning then it's going to cause evern further problems, better to try and get them spread out.

LAX54 · 25 Jul 2019

colchesterken said:
Colchester Town cut off for 2 days. Overhead line problems . Trains running on the direct line to Wivenhoe but not around the junction
The whole line was rebuilt about 10 yrs ago, new track, signals, and I assume the knitting
Anyone know what went wrong?

Resignalled, but not rewired, part of the issue was trying to get the 360 out, the coupling they use, did not work, it also on a sharp curve, so not a quick fix, with staggers etc, all OHL staff out on the Main Line today, assisting where needed, they are going back in tonight to effect repairs,

Advised that rail head temps could get to 57 to 60 by late afternoon, currently some locations are at 50 degrees. (1430)

tsr · 25 Jul 2019

May as well post this here. MML expected to be ruined at the south end. 1C37 reports a flash/bang and suspected dewirement at West Hampstead Thameslink / Belsize Tunnels.

Saint66 · 25 Jul 2019

tsr said:
May as well post this here. MML expected to be ruined at the south end. 1C37 reports a flash/bang and suspected dewirement at West Hampstead Thameslink / Belsize Tunnels.

Indeed, Thameslink have just reported on twitter that the line is blocked...It’s going to be tough evening for everyone leaving London.

westv · 25 Jul 2019

Saint66 said:
Indeed, Thameslink have just reported on twitter that the line is blocked...It’s going to be tough evening for everyone leaving London.

Which maybe links in to my earlier question as to whether there has been any noticeable reduction in passengers today on services in to/out of London.

tsr · 25 Jul 2019

Basically, avoid TL like the plague tonight. Confirmed dewirement. West Hampstead Thameslink being evacuated due to OHLE being in a very bad way.

tsr · 25 Jul 2019

Reports all through VT services to run via the Trent Valley vice New St. Chiltern accepting tickets.

Heat related issues (25 July 2019 and subsequent days)

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