Scotrail Class 385 Discussion

Highlandspring · 23 Jul 2019

Tomorrow will mark exactly one year since the introduction of the 385s on the E&G. ScotRail are having a celebration with cakes and entertainment on various services and at Queens Street and Haymarket.

RailUK Forums

anthannan · 23 Jul 2019

InOban said:
Today's delivery seems to be off.

Have 43 and 44 been seen outside of the factory yet?

JumpinTrainz · 23 Jul 2019

380101 said:
Heard from a couple of reliable sources that they are going to be doing overnight testing of the 385 on the Ayrshire routes soon. Apparently the aircon is suffering in units whilst working the Cathcart Circle due to the constant opening of the doors every 2-3 minutes so the plan is to shift them onto longer routes with less frequent door opening. Always said putting 100mph inter urban EMUs on a 40mph inner city metro route was crazy!

Think this had been suggested many times I’m glad they’ve realised that the 385s on Cathcart Circle services is impractical to say the least.

The 385s and 380s will work well on Ayrshire and Inverclyde lines.

JonathanH · 23 Jul 2019

JumpinTrainz said:
Think this had been suggested many times I’m glad they’ve realised that the 385s on Cathcart Circle services is impractical to say the least.

The 385s and 380s will work well on Ayrshire and Inverclyde lines.

Doesn't moving 385s to the Paisley routes just leave 380s having to work on the Cathcart routes instead?

There are plenty of 321s ripe for conversion to 320s in the near future (noting these are also 100mph inter-urban units)

380101 · 23 Jul 2019

JonathanH said:
Doesn't moving 385s to the Paisley routes just leave 380s having to work on the Cathcart routes instead?

There are plenty of 321s ripe for conversion to 320s in the near future (noting these are also 100mph inter-urban units)

Potentially the 385s and 380s could take over all the Inverclyde work and that would move 318s and 320s onto the Cathcart Circle work where they are more suited (3x20m coaches instead of the 3x23m of the 380/385 which dont fit on the platforms or into the Neilston turnback siding if running as 6 cars). 321/320s may be 100mph (ScotRail 320s are 90mph) but they're slow as hell acceleration wise and would struggle to keep to 380/385 timings on long runs.

JumpinTrainz · 23 Jul 2019

JonathanH said:
Doesn't moving 385s to the Paisley routes just leave 380s having to work on the Cathcart routes instead?

There are plenty of 321s ripe for conversion to 320s in the near future (noting these are also 100mph inter-urban units)

I’d have thought more 321 conversions would have been the way to go to replace the 314s altogether. Even the 380s are unsuitable for the Cathcart/Neilston/Paisley Canal services. If there are more available I think scotrail should look into doing it.

This could allow 380s and 385s to share workings and operate Ayrshire and Inverclyde without the need for 318s and 320s to be covering Inverclyde workings and 385s or 380s appearing on ex-314 routes at all.

DannyMich2018 · 23 Jul 2019

hexagon789 said:
So 385s of Ayrshire after all then, interesting. Presumably the Cathcarts will get more 318/320s instead. I can see the logic in switching 385s over to Ayrshire being pretty much a match for 380s in most respects.

Common sense will prevail. 100mph,air conditioned, 2 plus 2 seating ,2 toilet trains shouldn't be used on local Cathcart services. What a waste of resources.

hexagon789 · 23 Jul 2019

DannyMich2018 said:
Common sense will prevail. 100mph,air conditioned, 2 plus 2 seating ,2 toilet trains shouldn't be used on local Cathcart services. What a waste of resources.

Exactly, it seemed rather wasteful to start with but they seem to have come to the same conclusion eventually.

JumpinTrainz · 24 Jul 2019

hexagon789 said:
Exactly, it seemed rather wasteful to start with but they seem to have come to the same conclusion eventually.

I’m glad they have finally saw sense, although surely alarm bells must have been ringing before now...

On a separate note I wonder if this means over time that the 380s will start working the E+G again and share duties with the 385s like the 334s and 318s did many years back.

380101 · 24 Jul 2019

JumpinTrainz said:
I’m glad they have finally saw sense, although surely alarm bells must have been ringing before now...

On a separate note I wonder if this means over time that the 380s will start working the E+G again and share duties with the 385s like the 334s and 318s did many years back.

You'll not see 380s back on the E&G. The 385s were specc'd for the E&G which requires first class seating which the 380s don't and will never have.

JumpinTrainz · 24 Jul 2019

380101 said:
You'll not see 380s back on the E&G. The 385s were specc'd for the E&G which requires first class seating which the 380s don't and will never have.

Aren’t they due for an overhaul at some point in the near future (normally happens every 10 years or so)? Surely it wouldn’t be that hard to fit a first class section on to some of the units.

380101 · 24 Jul 2019

JumpinTrainz said:
Aren’t they due for an overhaul at some point in the near future (normally happens every 10 years or so)? Surely it wouldn’t be that hard to fit a first class section on to some of the units.

Yes, its happening now. New traction motors and axle bearings. Nothing else planned. There is only 38 380s - 22 3 car units and 16 4 cars and 7 car units are required for busy Ayrshire peak services so they won't fit any first class as it would reduce seating capacity. In short, the 380s will remain on the current routes they serve and the E&G will stay 385.

hexagon789 · 24 Jul 2019

JumpinTrainz said:
I’m glad they have finally saw sense, although surely alarm bells must have been ringing before now...

On a separate note I wonder if this means over time that the 380s will start working the E+G again and share duties with the 385s like the 334s and 318s did many years back.

Theoretically I suppose it's possible but I would imagine the main E&G via Falkirk High services would remain 385 any 380s would being used on the via Grahamston service as the latter is standard class only.

HankyuDentetsu · 24 Jul 2019

hwl said:
The average humidity in the the UK is higher than the vast majority of countries in the World / Europe and average UK RH has increased 4% points (not by 4%) over the last 50 years due to climate change (warmer = wetter when you are surrounded by water!) hence you have to comparatively over spec Air Con to work in the UK. (Ditto Air source heat pumps)

Having lived in Japan for several years - whose summers are significantly hotter and more humid than the UK's - and having traveled on numerous Hitachi rolling stock across the country, I can tell you right now that (if specced correctly) their aircon works absolutely fine on more urban routes.

As a throw-away observation, the aircon units on the 385 look visually very similar to many of units that seem to be used in modern Japanese urban and suburban rail rolling stock (the picture linked is of the new E235 series running on Tokyo's Yamanote Line).

hexagon789 · 24 Jul 2019

HankyuDentetsu said:
Having lived in Japan for several years - whose summers are significantly hotter and more humid than the UK's - and having traveled on numerous Hitachi rolling stock across the country, I can tell you right now that (if specced correctly) their aircon works absolutely fine on more urban routes.

As a throw-away observation, the aircon units on the 385 look visually very similar to many of units that seem to be used in modern Japanese urban and suburban rail rolling stock (the picture linked is of the new E235 series running on Tokyo's Yamanote Line).

It's probably the Scottish weather, that's enough to damage anything! :lol:

HankyuDentetsu · 24 Jul 2019

hexagon789 said:
It's probably the Scottish weather, that's enough to damage anything!

Well yes it does seem to wreak havoc in many ways, haha! But the suffocating brutality of the Japanese summer is not to be underestimated. Absolute torture :lol:

takno · 24 Jul 2019

HankyuDentetsu said:
Having lived in Japan for several years - whose summers are significantly hotter and more humid than the UK's - and having traveled on numerous Hitachi rolling stock across the country, I can tell you right now that (if specced correctly) their aircon works absolutely fine on more urban routes.

As a throw-away observation, the aircon units on the 385 look visually very similar to many of units that seem to be used in modern Japanese urban and suburban rail rolling stock (the picture linked is of the new E235 series running on Tokyo's Yamanote Line).

Absolutely agree - Scottish weather is positively uninteresting compared to much of the world, and Japan certainly does much hotter and much more humid. At a guess there are fewer units installed, or the expected maintenance regime is much lighter and they've just been overwhelmed. Either that or the engines are higher-specced and putting out more heat. I would suggest that our unforgiving gauge requirements mean that everything is crammed in, but some of the narrow-gauge lines in Japan didn't seem any more commodious.

Northhighland · 24 Jul 2019

Had first trip on one this week to Stirling from Edinburgh. Very pleasant experience for that kind of journey an excellent train.

Very comfortable light airy and air con was just perfect.

PaxVobiscum · 24 Jul 2019

Just in case it’s of any interest, when at Queen Street today I noticed there was a 7 coach 385 in platform 7 and it occurred to me to see how much of the platform it took up. The photo below is from the railing at the end of platform 7 (on the left) and I believe the signal is a bit further on towards the tunnel. I counted nearly 30 paces* from the cab to the railing.
(*I’m a bit of a short***e so that’s not necessarily yards

).

Proves nothing but might be helpful to anyone not familiar with the platforms at GLQ.

Clansman · 24 Jul 2019

It makes me wonder when passing through Queen Street whether platform 6 could have been relayed and extended to allow 8 coaches with a bit of tweaking to the platform and track layouts at the end of platform 7 to create the additional space required.

InOban · 25 Jul 2019

Late delivery path loaded for Friday.

Spirit555 · 25 Jul 2019

I had 6 days in Scotland last week and saw all active 385's over 5 days. Only ones missing were 385001/02/41/42/43/44, 385101/02.

62 out of 70, not bad. The availability seems a bit dodgy at times as some services were short formed across the week

HTH

Mark

InOban · 25 Jul 2019

Which I think means that you saw all those in Scotland. The others are still at the factory.

SeaKing · 25 Jul 2019

InOban said:
Which I think means that you saw all those in Scotland. The others are still at the factory.

041 & 042 both been delivered not in service.

NotATrainspott · 25 Jul 2019

Clansman said:
It makes me wonder when passing through Queen Street whether platform 6 could have been relayed and extended to allow 8 coaches with a bit of tweaking to the platform and track layouts at the end of platform 7 to create the additional space required.

Remember that the summer 2016 works replaced and realigned the entire station throat. Some of the platforms were actually made slightly shorter as a result. There's a delicate balance of different requirements, like available platform length, ease of maintenance/reliability and approach/departure speeds. The only 8 car services planned are the E&G shuttles. While the HSTs have added another type of platform length-pushing train, they should never have dictated the requirements as they're clearly going to be replaced with multiple units in the near future. The track layout installed in 2016 will be in place for a very, very long time.

Clansman · 26 Jul 2019

NotATrainspott said:
Remember that the summer 2016 works replaced and realigned the entire station throat. Some of the platforms were actually made slightly shorter as a result. There's a delicate balance of different requirements, like available platform length, ease of maintenance/reliability and approach/departure speeds. The only 8 car services planned are the E&G shuttles. While the HSTs have added another type of platform length-pushing train, they should never have dictated the requirements as they're clearly going to be replaced with multiple units in the near future. The track layout installed in 2016 will be in place for a very, very long time.

That's very true, and I'm sure that this new layout will serve well for decades to come also.

Though as you'll be aware, the only platform that will end up shorter as a result of the entire QS project will be 6. Whilst I'm not suggesting that HSTs should dictate terms as such, but for the sake of capacity maximisatio; extending 6, in theory, could have been done by reforming 7 if it were required for whatever reason?

mic505 · 26 Jul 2019

Should do that once all the Class 314's are finally withdrawn followed by the Class 318's lol.

gordonjahn · 26 Jul 2019

Clansman said:
That's very true, and I'm sure that this new layout will serve well for decades to come also.

Though as you'll be aware, the only platform that will end up shorter as a result of the entire QS project will be 6. Whilst I'm not suggesting that HSTs should dictate terms as such, but for the sake of capacity maximisatio; extending 6, in theory, could have been done by reforming 7 if it were required for whatever reason?

The short distance between buffers and platform is a grandfather right - changing the platform at the buffer end requires meeting new standards, and including overrun beyond the buffers (10m or something?) so even a 2m extension to 7 would necessitate taking 12m (if I've remembered the overrun correctly) of concourse. From https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/10181/jacobs_report_sept_18_without_appendices.pdf :

Typhoon_93 · 26 Jul 2019

anthannan said:
Have 43 and 44 been seen outside of the factory yet?

Yes both are outside on test.

Typhoon_93 · 26 Jul 2019

InOban said:
Late delivery path loaded for Friday.

385102 outside this morning with delivery panel fitted so if it runs I suspect this will be the one to go.

Scotrail Class 385 Discussion

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