• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Class 158 with failed engine performance

Status
Not open for further replies.

rich r

Member
Joined
2 Mar 2017
Messages
149
My commute from Selby to Leeds this morning (6:50am, 2K55) was on a 158 rather than the usual 144 so I thought "great, legroom and cooler air". Unfortunately the front carriage (that I was in) had an engine fault. It'd start but then immediately stop.

We made it to Leeds with no issues (the driver tried to restart the engine at each station), apart from having to wait at Crossgates to get permission from the signaller to proceed into Leeds station with no front lights. Arrived at the platform only a couple of minutes late (mainly due to waiting for that permission).

So I was wondering how well two-carriage DMUs in general cope with half their power unavailable?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

AMD

Member
Joined
6 Dec 2017
Messages
604
Modern DMUs are designed with the thought that having multiple engines means that you have an ability to 'get home' in the event of engine problems, so they can cope with running on just the one engine, although performance will be affected. The only thing you really have to watch is oil and water levels, particularly in hot weather like we are having now as if the remaining engine overheats, then you have a problem, as happens occasionally......
 

sw1ller

Established Member
Joined
4 Jan 2013
Messages
1,567
I can’t reach linespeed in a 150 between Chester and Crewe with only one engine (I can the other way). We tend to just about manage the timings but it’s a very tight turn around at Crewe.
 

rebmcr

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2011
Messages
3,845
Location
St Neots
If it was timed for a 158 rather than a 144 you probably would have fallen further behind.
 

70014IronDuke

Established Member
Joined
13 Jun 2015
Messages
3,686
The answer would depend on the respective power/weight ratios in each scenario, but half the available power will mean half the maximum acceleration, unless that is limited by adhesion when full power is available (in which case the difference will not be as great).

A service with many stops would feel the difference more acutely than a non-stop train.

My guestimate would be that maximum speed on the level would be something like 15% down - and, of course, it would take longer to reach this balance speed.

ISTR somewhere reading that an HST with one power car out could get to about 100 - 105 mph on the level. I'm sure someone will confirm or otherwise.

I can’t reach linespeed in a 150 between Chester and Crewe with only one engine (I can the other way). We tend to just about manage the timings but it’s a very tight turn around at Crewe.

Not stops between these stations, right? (Unless something's opened while I've been away), and presumable it's downhill more Crewe - Chester?
 

supervc-10

Member
Joined
4 Mar 2012
Messages
701
ISTR somewhere reading that an HST with one power car out could get to about 100 - 105 mph on the level. I'm sure someone will confirm or otherwise.

I was once on a FGW HST (this was back in about 2007? Certainly no later than 2009, as I was still at school and left in 2009!) with one power car out. It was running up from Devon, and was an hour late by the time it reached Pewsey. It only got worse from there! Apparently it was really, really, struggling over the hills further west! TBH I'm surprised they didn't cancel it further west, although maybe they were thinking they should continue to Paddington and then head to Old Oak Common.
 

70014IronDuke

Established Member
Joined
13 Jun 2015
Messages
3,686
I was once on a FGW HST (this was back in about 2007? Certainly no later than 2009, as I was still at school and left in 2009!) with one power car out. It was running up from Devon, and was an hour late by the time it reached Pewsey. It only got worse from there! Apparently it was really, really, struggling over the hills further west! TBH I'm surprised they didn't cancel it further west, although maybe they were thinking they should continue to Paddington and then head to Old Oak Common.

An hour lost from the SW by Pewsey doesn't suprise me at all - the loss of power on the Devon banks would have been severely felt. It would inevitably have lost time between Pewsey and Paddington too, but providing the one unit was working ok, it should not have been so terrible. Did you stay on after Reading?
 

rich r

Member
Joined
2 Mar 2017
Messages
149
Thanks all. It's relatively flat between Selby and Leeds, with about 7 stops mostly a few miles apart (other than East Garforth/Garforth) so there's plenty of time for acceleration and yes, this route is often a 142/144 with the occational 150 but for a while we had 170s so if it was timed assuming a Pacer then possibly everything else even with an engine down would still be able to cope.
 

Fisherman80

Member
Joined
29 Apr 2018
Messages
214
Very good thread. I seem to remember many years ago being onboard a 155 heading out of Bradford Interchange heading towards Manchester with one engine down. Being on a 1 in 50 gradient it was painfully slow until around Low Moor I recall.
 

supervc-10

Member
Joined
4 Mar 2012
Messages
701
An hour lost from the SW by Pewsey doesn't suprise me at all - the loss of power on the Devon banks would have been severely felt. It would inevitably have lost time between Pewsey and Paddington too, but providing the one unit was working ok, it should not have been so terrible. Did you stay on after Reading?

Nope, I changed to a service to Slough. It did lose further time between Pewsey and Reading too.

In contrast, I've been on Voyagers with an engine out on Manchester-Bristol, with only slight performance decline in comparison. But having 75% of your available power vs 50% makes a big difference. Also 9-car 159s out of Waterloo to Salisbury with an engine out and it still pretty much ran to time.
 

sw1ller

Established Member
Joined
4 Jan 2013
Messages
1,567
The answer would depend on the respective power/weight ratios in each scenario, but half the available power will mean half the maximum acceleration, unless that is limited by adhesion when full power is available (in which case the difference will not be as great).

A service with many stops would feel the difference more acutely than a non-stop train.

My guestimate would be that maximum speed on the level would be something like 15% down - and, of course, it would take longer to reach this balance speed.

ISTR somewhere reading that an HST with one power car out could get to about 100 - 105 mph on the level. I'm sure someone will confirm or otherwise.



Not stops between these stations, right? (Unless something's opened while I've been away), and presumable it's downhill more Crewe - Chester?
No stops, and you’re right, it’s mainly uphill to Crewe from Chester. But it’s not very steep at all. I have been in one where I got to 70mph just as I reached the 70mph board (down from 90) and I’ve been in one where I was full power all the way to the 50mph board. If there was no need to do a running brake test(RBT) (as in a through train from the coast with the same driver) I might have hit 75mph but on the two occasions Ive been on the Crewe shuttle with one engine, I’ve had to do the brake test. At the time that consisted of reducing the speed of the train by 10mph. It’s slightly different for us now so it MAY be possible to get to 75 even with the RBT.
 

Lytham Local

Member
Joined
5 May 2017
Messages
80
I've was on a 158 from Glasgow to Preston back in the 90's where one of the units engines had failed. Going uphill to Beattock was an absolute struggle and we ended up 60 late at Carlisle. Rather than cancel at Carlisle, it continued to Preston (and onwards to Liverpool) where it had the same issues getting to Shap summit. So to answer the OP question. If it is reasonably flat terrain with short stops, it should be fine but on challenging terrain over long distances, you'll be putting in a delay repay claim!
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,692
Location
Scotland
ISTR somewhere reading that an HST with one power car out could get to about 100 - 105 mph on the level. I'm sure someone will confirm or otherwise.
I was on a HST that had a failed powercar on departure from Edinburgh. We weren't even late enough into Kings Cross to make a delay repay claim.
 

Tomnick

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2005
Messages
5,826
We made it to Leeds with no issues (the driver tried to restart the engine at each station), apart from having to wait at Crossgates to get permission from the signaller to proceed into Leeds station with no front lights. Arrived at the platform only a couple of minutes late (mainly due to waiting for that permission).
Perhaps mis-communication - there should be no need to run with no front lights (20mph max with no headlight) as there’s a remote supply facility to feed them (and not much else) from the adjacent vehicle so at least the train can continue normally. The delay might have been whilst Control were consulted though, not least as it’s a sealed switch to swap the feed over for the headlight.
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
15,714
Location
Glasgow
ISTR somewhere reading that an HST with one power car out could get to about 100 - 105 mph on the level. I'm sure someone will confirm or ot

That would be about right. You need twice as much power to attain 125 as 100mph, so an HST running on half-power should be able to do just over 100mph.
 

NorthernSpirit

Established Member
Joined
21 Jun 2013
Messages
2,184
My commute from Selby to Leeds this morning (6:50am, 2K55) was on a 158 rather than the usual 144 so I thought "great, legroom and cooler air". Unfortunately the front carriage (that I was in) had an engine fault. It'd start but then immediately stop.

We made it to Leeds with no issues (the driver tried to restart the engine at each station), apart from having to wait at Crossgates to get permission from the signaller to proceed into Leeds station with no front lights. Arrived at the platform only a couple of minutes late (mainly due to waiting for that permission).

I don't think the driver would get away with whipping out his phone and setting it to torch so to mimic a headlight. You would have thought that the guard or even the driver would have had a bardic lamp with them, I've seen some carry them.

I've been on a two coach 158 which had engine issues upon departing Settle, front coach was taken out of use and I think it ran with no headlights until Skipton where a portable 24 volt lamp was mouted on the front lamp prong.

On another occation around twelve or so years ago a 156 that I was travelling on from Hebden Bridge had the front engine out and a portable 24 volt white light mounted on the front, the tail lights had also been extinguished but with a rear mounted bardic as a replacement. The guard did say that there was an electrical fault which is affecting the unit and as such its running non-stop to Leeds. What was interesting was that the interior lighting was working fine on the rear coach, the front it was out and I do think that the guard was concerned that the unit could go at anytime as the 156 was more or less running on the alternator which probably explains the dual bardics to preserve what power it had left.
 

Llama

Established Member
Joined
29 Apr 2014
Messages
1,955
All traincrew carry a bardic as part of their essential equipment, they wouldn't be working a train without one.

On a related note, I'm pretty sure not all Northern 158s have a remote lighting supply switch, although most do there were always a few which didn't have it.

If not, then it should be bardic on the front as per rulebook requirements - box informed and max 20mph with permission as far as control decide, there are outstation fitters at Leeds who could, say, replenish coolant and check for leaks - I would suspect low fluid level causing the mowbray float switch in the header tank to open causing the engine to shut down.
 

apinnard

Member
Joined
2 Aug 2017
Messages
260
Location
Kettering
An ex Eversholt guy who worked at Etches Park regularly told me the original 9 car 222's during testing were deliberately run with a few engines out. They were still able to absolutely trash HST timings. In terms of performance they really are pretty good.
 

vikingdriver

Member
Joined
11 Mar 2010
Messages
307
All traincrew carry a bardic as part of their essential equipment, they wouldn't be working a train without one.

On a related note, I'm pretty sure not all Northern 158s have a remote lighting supply switch, although most do there were always a few which didn't have it.

If not, then it should be bardic on the front as per rulebook requirements - box informed and max 20mph with permission as far as control decide, there are outstation fitters at Leeds who could, say, replenish coolant and check for leaks - I would suspect low fluid level causing the mowbray float switch in the header tank to open causing the engine to shut down.

We don't get issued a bardic, haven't for many many years now. We have a torch. Well they call it a lamp, but its a glorified torch. Definitely can't stick it on the front or back!
 

RJ

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2005
Messages
8,383
Location
Back office
I was on a 142 from Manchester to Sheffield on Sunday just gone. Round about the Marple area the engine in the rear carriage suddenly started idling when at speed, then on departure from some stations continued to idle. At random points it would spring into life. We didn't really lose much time however as it's quite a slow going service - http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y66343/2019/07/21/advanced
 

Jozhua

Established Member
Joined
6 Jan 2019
Messages
1,856
I was on an XC HST with a failed powercar, the other one ended up breaking down just outside Birmingham and we had to move across to a Voyager.
 

181

Member
Joined
12 Feb 2013
Messages
801
I once travelled form Fort William to Crianlarich in a 156 one of whose engines cut out on the climb beside Loch Treig, resulting in the train stalling a few hundred yards before the summit at Corrour. Fortunately the driver managed to get it moving again. At some point the engine came back to life; it cut out again on the next big climb, south of Bridge of Orchy, which resulted in a rather slow approach to the summit, but without stalling. I can't remember how late the arrival was. More recently I made the same journey in a 4-car 156 formation in which one engine was shut down for at least part of the journey; arrival at Crianlarich was about 10 minutes late.

The other d.m.u. engine failure that I remember was on a Turbo unit on a Thames Valley stopping train; I think I reached my destination about 10 minutes late, but I remember being quite pleased (presumably I wasn't in a hurry to get anywhere) by how quiet and peaceful the latter part of the journey was.
 

70014IronDuke

Established Member
Joined
13 Jun 2015
Messages
3,686
I was on a HST that had a failed powercar on departure from Edinburgh. We weren't even late enough into Kings Cross to make a delay repay claim.

I must confess that I didn't believe you. That is not to say I thought you were making this up, but that - assuming we are talking about a regularly timed 125 HST service (and not a special Sunday working with added recovery time, or some such) - somehow you were mistaken, and the second power car cut in for at least part of the journey without you knowing. Or stops were missed out to help the train recover some lost time which you didn't notice.

Because a) even under ideal operating conditions, an HST with a single Cl 43 power car of 2,250 HP simply could not but lose over an hour Edinburgh - KX by the basic laws of physics and

b) in the real operating world any such train would be looped at least two-three times so as to avoid a queue of ever later HSTs following behind. Looping the train would inevitably lead to further delays, of course.

But, before positing any such scenario, I set to work on a back-of-the-proverbial-fag packet calculation.
If we take the current Highland Chieftan timings, it takes 4hr 17 minute (or 4.28 hours) EDB-KGX. That's an average speed of 91.7 mph.

My own feeling would be that at best, an HST on half power would manage 75 mph average speed.
If so, any such train would take 5.24 hours.

So yes, if that calculation were to be correct (and it is only a guestimate, of course), an HST with one power car out could make ot to KX with about 0.04 of an hour (2.4 mins) less than 60 mins late, ie about 57.5 minutes late.

I still find it difficult to believe your train wasn't looped, which would have added to the delays and surely pushed the total above 60 mins, but, by my own rough estimate, it might be possible.

Of course, the huge unknown here is what average speed an HST on one power car can manage on such a run. If we assume an averge speed of 73 mph, ie just 2 mph less than my initial estimate, the timing jumps to 5.38 hrs, ie about 5hr 24 mins, and you could easily justify an hour's + delay.

Whatever, perhaps someone out there has a real log of an HST on the run with a power car out that could confirm (more or less) these figures?
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,692
Location
Scotland
...somehow you were mistaken, and the second power car cut in for at least part of the journey without you knowing. Or stops were missed out to help the train recover some lost time which you didn't notice.
It's possible that the second power car wasn't completely dead, but I did several GPS checks and the highest was 108mph.

This was an Aberdeen train so the last booked stop was York.
 

rich r

Member
Joined
2 Mar 2017
Messages
149
there are outstation fitters at Leeds who could, say, replenish coolant and check for leaks - I would suspect low fluid level causing the mowbray float switch in the header tank to open causing the engine to shut down.

When we pulled in at Leeds a fitter was waiting, and he immediately went to look at the coolant gauge as soon as we'd stopped. He was unscrewing the cap as I walked past. So your suspicion was probably his too.
 

70014IronDuke

Established Member
Joined
13 Jun 2015
Messages
3,686
It's possible that the second power car wasn't completely dead, but I did several GPS checks and the highest was 108mph.

This was an Aberdeen train so the last booked stop was York.

108? That is outstanding if on the level with only one unit, I'd have thought - or perhaps it was around Essendine, ie down Stoke Bank?
 

joncombe

Member
Joined
6 Nov 2016
Messages
765
I remember years ago on a 150 heading to Exeter from Plymouth. Just outside Totnes one of the engines cut out. The driver and guard made a good effort to get it up the hill. All passengers were moved to one carriage with the other locked out but even this was not enough. We then got permission to roll back to Totnes (this was late evening) and the 150 operating from Paignton was diverted from Newton Abbot to head to Totnes and join to our stricken train. Then there was enough power to make it up the hill and to Exeter.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top